Unity and Uniformity 2

No... probably me. I'm having a bad time right now, and trying to power through..

I missed a lot that may have led to your thinking, and was trying, and failing, to get a handle on what you were saying...

I'll stop trying for conversations, I suck at them right now. Better to disappear.

I'm adding you to my prayer list. I pray that God give you the strength and help to handle whatever is going on in your life.
 
I wish there were something I could do for you. If I recall, it's your back?

Are you scheduled for surgery or anything? We can pray from the distances we are from one another.

I had surgery a few months ago, I started out great right after surgery but then something went wrong. Still trying to figure out the what exactly, I'm kind of in limbo until its all figured out and sorted.

Thanks for your prayers.
 
I had surgery a few months ago, I started out great right after surgery but then something went wrong. Still trying to figure out the what exactly, I'm kind of in limbo until its all figured out and sorted.

Thanks for your prayers.

Thanks Chris for sharing your burden and letting us pray for you.

We are all children of God called out by God to be apart of one body of Christ. It is told that we are fitly joined together (Eph 4:16, 1 Cor 1:10). When one part of the body suffers the whole body often suffers. Think of how our whole body is afflicted when a limb is crushed or badly injured such as a finger or toe. We all have unique roles to play in this body of Christ (Rom 12).

The heart has a different purpose than an arm does. The arm will never be a heart and the the heart will never accomplish what the arm does. The heart serves the arm and the arm serves the heart. If either begin function poorly it effects the whole body. If either stops serving the other it effects the whole body.

Just some additional thoughts on this topic.
 
In a conversation about ecumenicalism with my step-dad, I mentioned Billy Graham having sold out to that phenomenon. My step-dad, being a sycophant about unity and non-critical thinking and statements of things so many find so very nice and appealing, gave me quite a tongue lashing for daring to say anything negative about someone like Graham.

Looking back at that conversation, I can see it would not have made any difference to him that Graham had the audacity to praise a man such as Francis of Assissi, who thoroughly believed in salvation by works, and was even even declared a saint on that basis for helping the poor. In other words, unity and uniformity was of higher importance than salvation through Christ Jesus alone. Graham, stated, "While I am not worthy to touch the shoe laces of St. Francis, yet this same Christ that called Francis in the 13th century also called me to be one of His servants in the 20th century." (Decision, Aug., 1996)

In that statement made in April of 1972, I don't know what "Christ" Billy was talking about, but it certainly wasn't the Christ of the Bible...unless someone can help me with this by explaining how the "Christ" to whom Graham was referring in that statement could be the same Christ who said:

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

I don't see even a hint in Jesus' words that works can save. Works, to my understanding, is a central tenet of the RCC.

So, how do we find unity between the two belief systems, along with the very declarations of the Lord Himself, in the arena of Truth? It seems to me that ecumenical followers have a problem on their hands when we dare stick to the truths taught in God's word, and the blind eye turned to the stark contrasts between ecumenicism and Truth.

MM
 
In a conversation about ecumenicalism with my step-dad, I mentioned Billy Graham having sold out to that phenomenon. My step-dad, being a sycophant about unity and non-critical thinking and statements of things so many find so very nice and appealing, gave me quite a tongue lashing for daring to say anything negative about someone like Graham.

Looking back at that conversation, I can see it would not have made any difference to him that Graham had the audacity to praise a man such as Francis of Assissi, who thoroughly believed in salvation by works, and was even even declared a saint on that basis for helping the poor. In other words, unity and uniformity was of higher importance than salvation through Christ Jesus alone. Graham, stated, "While I am not worthy to touch the shoe laces of St. Francis, yet this same Christ that called Francis in the 13th century also called me to be one of His servants in the 20th century." (Decision, Aug., 1996)

In that statement made in April of 1972, I don't know what "Christ" Billy was talking about, but it certainly wasn't the Christ of the Bible...unless someone can help me with this by explaining how the "Christ" to whom Graham was referring in that statement could be the same Christ who said:

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

I don't see even a hint in Jesus' words that works can save. Works, to my understanding, is a central tenet of the RCC.

So, how do we find unity between the two belief systems, along with the very declarations of the Lord Himself, in the arena of Truth? It seems to me that ecumenical followers have a problem on their hands when we dare stick to the truths taught in God's word, and the blind eye turned to the stark contrasts between ecumenicism and Truth.

MM

Correct. The RCC teaches that without Works and water baptism....their is NO salvation possible!
 
I had surgery a few months ago, I started out great right after surgery but then something went wrong. Still trying to figure out the what exactly, I'm kind of in limbo until its all figured out and sorted.

Thanks for your prayers.

God bless you my friend.
 
Correct. The RCC teaches that without Works and water baptism....their is NO salvation possible!

I realize there are many who follow that system of religion, but I personally can't understand how anyone could ever believe in a less than sufficient atonement in the shed blood of Christ Jesus. How can it be said that they know the real Christ Jesus, as described within scripture, apart from believing in the totality of what He accomplished on the cross for our total and complete salvation?

There is a fella I happen to know who still has membership in that religion here in the states, and who mainly attends the men's study group, where he ministers Christ Jesus. He doesn't do the rosaries, confessions, sacraments or anything else they do, but he does continue to attend various of their meetings to reach as many of them for Christ as he can. He once told me that if it were not for the teaching of purgatory and only partial atonement in the blood of Christ Jesus, the members wouldn't really have any reason to darken the door steps with their presence each week, or even at the holiday sessions. They keep coming back because they assume the sacraments and such are decreasing their time to be spent in "purging."

How tragic. To think that any system that claims to be representative of a christ who didn't pay the full penalty of salvation, and so many out there to assume their christ is the same One described within the Bible, they promote a christ who cannot save their members. Is that so far-fetched to say that when there cannot exist within the same Being a Christ who paid it all, and another who did not? Is it possible for them to be one and the same? I don't see how they can be. Only one of them can be the true Christ. Is that not a reasonable assessment?

MM
 
I realize there are many who follow that system of religion, but I personally can't understand how anyone could ever believe in a less than sufficient atonement in the shed blood of Christ Jesus. How can it be said that they know the real Christ Jesus, as described within scripture, apart from believing in the totality of what He accomplished on the cross for our total and complete salvation?

There is a fella I happen to know who still has membership in that religion here in the states, and who mainly attends the men's study group, where he ministers Christ Jesus. He doesn't do the rosaries, confessions, sacraments or anything else they do, but he does continue to attend various of their meetings to reach as many of them for Christ as he can. He once told me that if it were not for the teaching of purgatory and only partial atonement in the blood of Christ Jesus, the members wouldn't really have any reason to darken the door steps with their presence each week, or even at the holiday sessions. They keep coming back because they assume the sacraments and such are decreasing their time to be spent in "purging."

How tragic. To think that any system that claims to be representative of a christ who didn't pay the full penalty of salvation, and so many out there to assume their christ is the same One described within the Bible, they promote a christ who cannot save their members. Is that so far-fetched to say that when there cannot exist within the same Being a Christ who paid it all, and another who did not? Is it possible for them to be one and the same? I don't see how they can be. Only one of them can be the true Christ. Is that not a reasonable assessment?

MM

I appreciate your coments.

My next door neighbor is a RCC. He and his wife were "born" into that religion and it seems from I know....that is the #1 way that people are Catholics.

My friend is almost ignorant of what he and his wife do and why in the RCC faith. However, because they have been in it for over 75 years, they are impossible to reach. To them, they are born again Christians even though they can not define what being born again means.

Many years ago I did some work on the false teachings of the RCC and identified 32 traditions that the RCC says are doctrine. The problem is that NONE of them have any Scriptural basis. NONE!
 
I appreciate your coments.

My next door neighbor is a RCC. He and his wife were "born" into that religion and it seems from I know....that is the #1 way that people are Catholics.

My friend is almost ignorant of what he and his wife do and why in the RCC faith. However, because they have been in it for over 75 years, they are impossible to reach. To them, they are born again Christians even though they can not define what being born again means.

Many years ago I did some work on the false teachings of the RCC and identified 32 traditions that the RCC says are doctrine. The problem is that NONE of them have any Scriptural basis. NONE!

I wonder how your neighbors KNOW they're born again...because if they don't know what it is, then they can't possibly that they are born again.

Who, in their right mind, would say that they are a member of the Widget Lodge, and not know what it is, what it does, What is stands for, its values, or anything else that defines such an organization?

This idea that antiquity, size, wealth, numbers and power somehow legitimize a religion as being of God, that's such a low form of laziness in critical thought...I mean, people are betting their eternal futures on those indicators as securing for them eternity with God. One thing we can say for sure is that a false christ cannot save anyone. The REAL Jesus had nothing but total regard for scripture, never pointing at traditions or teachings as being on equal footing with scripture.

Preaching to the choir, huh?

MM
 
Seven really good reasons I'm not one of them are:

Mass, Mary, Traditions, Images, Sacraments, Purgatory and Paganism.

I'm a Catholic (biblicist), just not a Roman Catholic.

MM
 
I wonder how your neighbors KNOW they're born again...because if they don't know what it is, then they can't possibly that they are born again.

Who, in their right mind, would say that they are a member of the Widget Lodge, and not know what it is, what it does, What is stands for, its values, or anything else that defines such an organization?

This idea that antiquity, size, wealth, numbers and power somehow legitimize a religion as being of God, that's such a low form of laziness in critical thought...I mean, people are betting their eternal futures on those indicators as securing for them eternity with God. One thing we can say for sure is that a false christ cannot save anyone. The REAL Jesus had nothing but total regard for scripture, never pointing at traditions or teachings as being on equal footing with scripture.

Preaching to the choir, huh?

MM

After talking to them many times.....the phrase "born Again" really means nothing to them. To them they are religious, which are ALL RCC's.

Yes.....I have over the years spoken to many RC's and it is always the same. Religious but lost. I have had only THREE people to got saved, and then left the RCC to join and fellowship with Protestant believers.

Tim, was one of those. He lived across the street from us and about 30 years ago after talking with him and showing him Scripture after Scripture he came to Christ and then became a missionary to South Korea. Just to show you how strange the RCC is, according to the Catholic church , when he got saved his parents and siblings disowned him and never spoke to him again and did not even come to his funeral when he did with cancer 10 years ago.

My wife and I lived across the street from Tim's parents for 17 years. You can believe that when he died and they refused to come to his funeral, we had a very "intense" conversation with them.

Now the rest of that story as Paul Harvey used to say is very interesting. Within the nest 5 years, both the Tim's' sister, brother and mother and father all died. The mother and dad of cancer. The sister in a car wreak and the brother a heart attack.
 
After talking to them many times.....the phrase "born Again" really means nothing to them. To them they are religious, which are ALL RCC's.

Yes.....I have over the years spoken to many RC's and it is always the same. Religious but lost. I have had only THREE people to got saved, and then left the RCC to join and fellowship with Protestant believers.

Tim, was one of those. He lived across the street from us and about 30 years ago after talking with him and showing him Scripture after Scripture he came to Christ and then became a missionary to South Korea. Just to show you how strange the RCC is, according to the Catholic church , when he got saved his parents and siblings disowned him and never spoke to him again and did not even come to his funeral when he did with cancer 10 years ago.

My wife and I lived across the street from Tim's parents for 17 years. You can believe that when he died and they refused to come to his funeral, we had a very "intense" conversation with them.

Now the rest of that story as Paul Harvey used to say is very interesting. Within the nest 5 years, both the Tim's' sister, brother and mother and father all died. The mother and dad of cancer. The sister in a car wreak and the brother a heart attack.

Hmm. How about this as a part of the mix...Jesus Himself saying:

John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

No mention of purgatory to see God. No mention of doing something on our part. That should be sobering enough for those who may "think" they have been born again through their sacraments and other works, but dare they try to define it by way of the rudiments of man-made teachings compared to what scripture has to say on the matter, that brings out into the open the distinctions that exist between the two.

I'm not saying you didn't already hit on this with those you have talked with, but for the sake of others reading through here, this is of utmost importance. Being born again is proof of salvation through the in-filling of Holy Spirit. Our friends in other religions need to be hit with the challenge to their understanding of this, and in understanding who the REAL Jesus of scripture is in relation to the concocted one that religion has created by way of their numerous proclivities in imaginations.

Any Jesus who is not understood to have taken the FULL penalty upon Himself for our sins, that is nothing but a ploy to keep the congregation coming back to the troughs where only the goats find comfort in the warm fuzzies of satisfaction. The righteousness of the REAL Christ is not infused into us like drops from an IV drip. The righteousness of Christ is IMPUTED to us, which is a full, redemptive, fully washed and cleansed, righteousness.

2 Corinthians 5:21 For he hath made him [to be] sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

This is cause for such rejoicing that I do so when reading these things the Lord has done for us. How much less is the rejoicing in those who are taught that they must "do their part" through works derived from deepest paganism. We are made the righteousness of God in Christ here in this life, so how could anyone have that righteousness upon them and still need purging? That nonsense defies reason, not to mention the Truth in scripture.

MM
 
This is cause for such rejoicing that I do so when reading these things the Lord has done for us. How much less is the rejoicing in those who are taught that they must "do their part" through works derived from deepest paganism. We are made the righteousness of God in Christ here in this life, so how could anyone have that righteousness upon them and still need purging? That nonsense defies reason, not to mention the Truth in scripture.

MM
It may defy reason, but then again, works righteousness is the way of the fallen natural man. A free gift of eternal life, runs counter to him regardless of the religious system....so does a saving God-King crucified in weakness and oh btw, dead men don't rise from the dead according to the fallen man's way of thinking.
 
Hmm. How about this as a part of the mix...Jesus Himself saying:

John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

No mention of purgatory to see God. No mention of doing something on our part. That should be sobering enough for those who may "think" they have been born again through their sacraments and other works, but dare they try to define it by way of the rudiments of man-made teachings compared to what scripture has to say on the matter, that brings out into the open the distinctions that exist between the two.

I'm not saying you didn't already hit on this with those you have talked with, but for the sake of others reading through here, this is of utmost importance. Being born again is proof of salvation through the in-filling of Holy Spirit. Our friends in other religions need to be hit with the challenge to their understanding of this, and in understanding who the REAL Jesus of scripture is in relation to the concocted one that religion has created by way of their numerous proclivities in imaginations.

Any Jesus who is not understood to have taken the FULL penalty upon Himself for our sins, that is nothing but a ploy to keep the congregation coming back to the troughs where only the goats find comfort in the warm fuzzies of satisfaction. The righteousness of the REAL Christ is not infused into us like drops from an IV drip. The righteousness of Christ is IMPUTED to us, which is a full, redemptive, fully washed and cleansed, righteousness.

2 Corinthians 5:21 For he hath made him [to be] sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

This is cause for such rejoicing that I do so when reading these things the Lord has done for us. How much less is the rejoicing in those who are taught that they must "do their part" through works derived from deepest paganism. We are made the righteousness of God in Christ here in this life, so how could anyone have that righteousness upon them and still need purging? That nonsense defies reason, not to mention the Truth in scripture.

MM

Yes my dear brother.....you are absolutly correct and I agree totally. I was NOT arguing the opposite in any way, only telling you what someone else told me.

And yes......I explained to them what "Born Again" was meant when Jesus said it. I also explained as I am sure you would as well....that to be a "Christian" one has to be Born Again but all one has to do to be a Roman Catholic is to be born.
 
In other words...do you think Jesus looks to the Father and says, "Well, what I meant by my prayer is that it's ok that we're 'one' on the basis of the essentials, but all the other periphery things are inconsequential, and therefore no big deal to sweat over."

I'm asking this question because it tends to strike at the heart of modern thinking that I hear all the time from professing believers when asked about denominationalism and all the other divisions amongst what the world considers to be the definition of "Christianity".

MM
Just stating that we do not need to agree on say modes of water Baptism, timing of Second Coming to still now be one on Christ!
 
Just stating that we do not need to agree on say modes of water Baptism, timing of Second Coming to still now be one on Christ!

Well......I have no desire to disagree, however it seems to me that we all need to understand that water baptism has nothing to do with salvation.

It is a act of obedience "after" we are saved to show an outward position of an inward change in our lives, but the act itself is not required in order to be saved.
 
Just stating that we do not need to agree on say modes of water Baptism, timing of Second Coming to still now be one on Christ!

And yet we have denominational, distinctive divisions on the basis of those and other doctrinal issues that are classified as non-salvation issues. That such things have so easily been granted the power to divide the Church in each city, I'd say that's troubling. It's almost as if groupings went out of their way to find a pre-defined set of doctrinal distinctives to justify their existence as a separate grouping from all others. Just looking at, for example, Luther's and Zwingli's childish actions after the "reformation," each one vying for supremacy and prominence by way of doctrinal superiority.

We agree on the fundamentals of what you've said, but the harsh reality is what's troubling. Ideally the non-salvation issues should not divide us up, but that has happened regardless.

MM
 
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