Order of Events in the Gathering?

[Musicmaster]

It struck me this morning, about doctrine...or tradition...

Is the current order to our institutional services a matter of traditions of men, or is it based upon some doctrine I can't find anywhere in scripture? I suspect the former, given how Protestantism remains mostly unaware as to just how Roman catholic it really is in form and practice.

What I'm getting at is the order of events. Most have the following main items in the order stated, with all others of no real consequence to this discussion:

• Sunday school classes for study of doctrinal teaching and a watered down form of discipleship.
• Sermons as the key feature for the gathering

Why not the other way around, with study and teaching as the keynote feature before people leave rather than the one dude in the lime light? Is it because people will allegedly better remember him and his Aristotelian (rhetoric) oratory as being fresh in their memory when they leave right after?

I've wondered about that ever since back when I was in the pulpit, be it ever so short-lived...until they found another to hire in permanently. I can't say how many times I've asked others in our church a couple days later what the preaching was about, and the usual response being them looking down at the floor, shuffling their feet some, and finally saying, "I don't remember." That appears to be more common than what most folks are willing to admit.

Is it because of the fear that, given that fewer people are willing to get up early enough on Sunday mornings to attend Sunday school, that the "less important" feature therefore remains in that time slot to ensure more people are present for the lime light performances and the passing of the offering plates? Is the oratory, collection for membership dues, the rock band or choir performance, et al, that much more important than the need for getting people in smaller, collective groups into the word of God for study and watered down discipleship, which commands better attention than sermons interspersed with snoring?

What about the "praise and worship" feature, with so many thinking that they can turn on, like a light switch, a worship scenario in their personal, inner lives, that is acceptable before the Father?

I'm intentionally spicing this up with wording and phraseology intended to illicit some deeper thought from more than just your intellect, but also your emotions, because we're all affected by our emotions...sometimes to a greater degree than we realize or are willing to admit.

What are your thoughts? I realize that many, if not most, think the "main service" is the one feature that should be in the latter time slot because of its perceived importance, but why is that?

Is there fear that attendance would remain lower because of the earlier time slot? Has it ever been tried before to your knowledge? Is not the collective study of God's word as important as the "main service?" Is one any more important than the other? Is discipleship more or less important? Is there a difference in importance? If not, then why are the features never flipped around from one organization to the other? There has to be something to it, or is it strictly just the religion of tradition?

Lots of questions, I know, but food for thought, nonetheless.

MM

 

[Musicmaster]

CP, CN, any thoughts on this, Major, Bob, anyone else?

Something else I've encountered in so many places among Christians is an unwillingness to think critically about our traditions. The strength of the drive behind riding the bandwagon, and not rocking the boat (maybe it's a wagon that hauls a boat) causes many to shrink away from this topic of the way we do things. It seems many are afraid of thinking outside the box, and thus launching out into something revolutionary and uncharted. Even worse is the suggestion of getting back to the roots of the Church. Both are experiences unknown to the masses. I can't count how many times I've been told that such is simply not something that works in this modern world or ours, as if we're too sophisticated to go around casting the baby out with the bathwater... On and on the cliche's of resistance go.

The last I knew, the apostles were not only revolutionary, but downright radical in relation to the status quo. They were sought out and killed because of the message of their testimony AND the practices they fostered in their pronouncements of the cross and Who was hung upon it, and to what end.

One thing I don't want is to be just another crackpot who points at some new twist of a revolution backed by the enemy of our souls because of it being something the devils can use to detract and distract from Christ Jesus. What I'm thinking about is how to strengthen the influence of the Church in this world of ours; being armed with not just more oil, but also explosives that will shatter those gates...

MM

 

[CPerkins]

Musicmaster

Thanks for reaching out. I only have a moment to review some discussions, but will come back probably in the morning.

 

[CPerkins]

The order of typical services seems to be based on traditions. There is no mention of Sunday school for sure. The elements of many services are mentioned praising God in song, prayer, instruction, study, etc, but I see no scripture stating the order of services or gatherings in God's word. Perhaps someone else knows of one.

 

[Musicmaster]

The order of typical services seems to be based on traditions. There is no mention of Sunday school for sure. The elements of many services are mentioned praising God in song, prayer, instruction, study, etc, but I see no scripture stating the order of services or gatherings in God's word. Perhaps someone else knows of one.

Hmm. I suspect I can already imagine the arguments in favor of the status quo; such as the main service being the main attraction because of all the features within it's scheduling, etc. In the end, it's about what the membership wants, and change is hard for general membership to accept once they've set into a pattern. That's why it's called "paradigm." Kick against the boulder of tradition, and all you get is broken toes.

I've talked with others about what the gathering of believers SHOULD focus upon, and got nothing but scowls and leers from all the traditionalists. Dare one touch a sacred cow with suggestions for change, and, oh boy, the fur flies...

MM

 

[alxb0521]

Hmm. I suspect I can already imagine the arguments in favor of the status quo; such as the main service being the main attraction because of all the features within it's scheduling, etc. In the end, it's about what the membership wants, and change is hard for general membership to accept once they've set into a pattern. That's why it's called "paradigm." Kick against the boulder of tradition, and all you get is broken toes.

I've talked with others about what the gathering of believers SHOULD focus upon, and got nothing but scowls and leers from all the traditionalists. Dare one touch a sacred cow with suggestions for change, and, oh boy, the fur flies...

MM

Nice description: "Kick against the boulder of tradition, and all you get is broken toes."

 

[Major]

CP, CN, any thoughts on this, Major, Bob, anyone else?

Something else I've encountered in so many places among Christians is an unwillingness to think critically about our traditions. The strength of the drive behind riding the bandwagon, and not rocking the boat (maybe it's a wagon that hauls a boat) causes many to shrink away from this topic of the way we do things. It seems many are afraid of thinking outside the box, and thus launching out into something revolutionary and uncharted. Even worse is the suggestion of getting back to the roots of the Church. Both are experiences unknown to the masses. I can't count how many times I've been told that such is simply not something that works in this modern world or ours, as if we're too sophisticated to go around casting the baby out with the bathwater... On and on the cliche's of resistance go.

The last I knew, the apostles were not only revolutionary, but downright radical in relation to the status quo. They were sought out and killed because of the message of their testimony AND the practices they fostered in their pronouncements of the cross and Who was hung upon it, and to what end.

One thing I don't want is to be just another crackpot who points at some new twist of a revolution backed by the enemy of our souls because of it being something the devils can use to detract and distract from Christ Jesus. What I'm thinking about is how to strengthen the influence of the Church in this world of ours; being armed with not just more oil, but also explosives that will shatter those gates...

MM

I am more than blessed to join in as long as our moderators allow the discussion. It is a worthy discussion and someone has asked and I think we owe them the truth.

In my knowledge and educational background and experience in the Southern Baptist Convention of churches..........
there is NO direction on what to do during the worship service and neither is there any direction found in the Scriptures.

The Christian church can gather at any time they choose to do so.

That is all left up to the individual Pastor of each church as each church is autonomist in its operations.

We do know from the book of Nehemiah that Ezra the scribe, stood on a "Pulpit" (Nehemiah 8:4) and read the Law of God and.............
"And Ezra the scribe stood on a wooden platform that they had made for the purpose. And beside him stood Mattithiah, Shema, Anaiah, Uriah, Hilkiah, and Maaseiah on his right hand, and Pedaiah, Mishael, Malchijah, Hashum, Hashbaddanah, Zechariah, and Meshullam on his left hand.

In Verses 5-7 the Christian church gets Sunday School from..........
"Ezra praised the LORD, the great God; and all the people lifted their hands and responded, "Amen! Amen!" Then they bowed down and worshiped the LORD with their faces to the ground. 7The Levites-Jeshua, Bani, Sherebiah, Jamin, Akkub, Shabbethai, Hodiah, Maaseiah, Kelita, Azariah, Jozabad, Hanan and Pelaiah-instructed the people in the Law while the people were standing there."

Ezra read the Word of God and his teachers taught the people the meaning......hence, Sunday School!

I can tell you that the usual time is from 1 to 2 hours. Personally I insist on one (1) hour as the listening ability of the average person is about 20 minutes. Many in churches are elderly and have to take meds with food and if a service drags on to 2 or 3 oclock....problems come up.

All the church's I know of begin at 9:46 with Sunday School/Bible study AM on Sunday.
Then that is followed at 11:00 with a worship service.
They open that service with a gathering/praise worship song then prayer or just the other way around.
Then there is a congregational song usually followed by a greeting and welcome to visitors.
Then another song/special.
Someone then usually makes the announcements if there are any.
Bible Scriptures are then read.
Prayer.
Sermon.
Invitation.
Exit prayer.

I would say that most all of that comes from tradition or.....that the way we used to do it.

By the way......there is also no Bible Scripture on the direction of an invitation or even if there should be one. We do!

 

[crossnote]

CP, CN, any thoughts on this, Major, Bob, anyone else?

Not sure if I am understanding the topic of the OP, as I pretty much steer clear of Church politics. Usually those sort of things (order of Service etc.) ends up being a hallowed tradition in and of itself.

 

[Musicmaster]

Not sure if I am understanding the topic of the OP, as I pretty much steer clear of Church politics. Usually those sort of things (order of Service etc.) ends up being a hallowed tradition in and of itself.

Uh...no. Politics have nothing to do with my topic. Of course, some people would likely make it a matter of politics in most organizations dare anyone like me come along and suggest changing to the order of things to ensure we emphasize Christ and growth in Christ.

MM

 

[Musicmaster]

I am more than blessed to join in as long as our moderators allow the discussion. It is a worthy discussion and someone has asked and I think we owe them the truth.

In my knowledge and educational background and experience in the Southern Baptist Convention of churches..........
there is NO direction on what to do during the worship service and neither is there any direction found in the Scriptures.

The Christian church can gather at any time they choose to do so.

That is all left up to the individual Pastor of each church as each church is autonomist in its operations.

We do know from the book of Nehemiah that Ezra the scribe, stood on a "Pulpit" (Nehemiah 8:4) and read the Law of God and.............
"And Ezra the scribe stood on a wooden platform that they had made for the purpose. And beside him stood Mattithiah, Shema, Anaiah, Uriah, Hilkiah, and Maaseiah on his right hand, and Pedaiah, Mishael, Malchijah, Hashum, Hashbaddanah, Zechariah, and Meshullam on his left hand.

In Verses 5-7 the Christian church gets Sunday School from..........
"Ezra praised the LORD, the great God; and all the people lifted their hands and responded, "Amen! Amen!" Then they bowed down and worshiped the LORD with their faces to the ground. 7The Levites-Jeshua, Bani, Sherebiah, Jamin, Akkub, Shabbethai, Hodiah, Maaseiah, Kelita, Azariah, Jozabad, Hanan and Pelaiah-instructed the people in the Law while the people were standing there."

Ezra read the Word of God and his teachers taught the people the meaning......hence, Sunday School!

I can tell you that the usual time is from 1 to 2 hours. Personally I insist on one (1) hour as the listening ability of the average person is about 20 minutes. Many in churches are elderly and have to take meds with food and if a service drags on to 2 or 3 oclock....problems come up.

All the church's I know of begin at 9:46 with Sunday School/Bible study AM on Sunday.
Then that is followed at 11:00 with a worship service.
They open that service with a gathering/praise worship song then prayer or just the other way around.
Then there is a congregational song usually followed by a greeting and welcome to visitors.
Then another song/special.
Someone then usually makes the announcements if there are any.
Bible Scriptures are then read.
Prayer.
Sermon.
Invitation.
Exit prayer.

I would say that most all of that comes from tradition or.....that the way we used to do it.

By the way......there is also no Bible Scripture on the direction of an invitation or even if there should be one. We do!

Major, brother, that's the status quo, although a variant from many others throughout churchianity, but it's pretty much exactly what I was raised within and by. Some people go on in life to become strong believers and servants, and many others fall through the cracks.

Perhaps what I'm haranguing about is an attempt at closing up those cracks as much as possible. Some organizations have made valiant attempts at doing just that, those that are led by men who see the problem, and have implemented alterations to deal with the ruptured artery of traditional churchdom.

This thread is an opportunity to address ideas, brainstorm some ideas, and explore the weaknesses and strengths...if people are so inclined to become involved. With it being summer, this may limp along through the season with so much activity all about. But, hey, I thought it might interest others who may be looking for ways to strengthen their fellow believers, even if their senior pastor remains aloof to the existence of the cracks. Those two atheists prompted me to launch out into this to see what might come forth.

Thanks for your feedback. Much appreciated.

MM

 

[crossnote]

Uh...no. Politics have nothing to do with my topic. Of course, some people would likely make it a matter of politics in most organizations dare anyone like me come along and suggest changing to the order of things to ensure we emphasize Christ and growth in Christ.

MM

Sorry, I thought you were referring to the order of Sunday School/Sermon and which should come first. In every Church I have attended it was a 'political' matter being left up to the Elders or Voters Meeting.

 

[Major]

Sorry, I thought you were referring to the order of Sunday School/Sermon and which should come first. In every Church I have attended it was a 'political' matter being left up to the Elders or Voters Meeting.

Me too!

 

[Major]

Major, brother, that's the status quo, although a variant from many others throughout churchianity, but it's pretty much exactly what I was raised within and by. Some people go on in life to become strong believers and servants, and many others fall through the cracks.

Perhaps what I'm haranguing about is an attempt at closing up those cracks as much as possible. Some organizations have made valiant attempts at doing just that, those that are led by men who see the problem, and have implemented alterations to deal with the ruptured artery of traditional churchdom.

This thread is an opportunity to address ideas, brainstorm some ideas, and explore the weaknesses and strengths...if people are so inclined to become involved. With it being summer, this may limp along through the season with so much activity all about. But, hey, I thought it might interest others who may be looking for ways to strengthen their fellow believers, even if their senior pastor remains aloof to the existence of the cracks. Those two atheists prompted me to launch out into this to see what might come forth.

Thanks for your feedback. Much appreciated.

MM

See post #11 as crossnote and I did not understand what you were asking.

 

[Major]

Major, brother, that's the status quo, although a variant from many others throughout churchianity, but it's pretty much exactly what I was raised within and by. Some people go on in life to become strong believers and servants, and many others fall through the cracks.

Perhaps what I'm haranguing about is an attempt at closing up those cracks as much as possible. Some organizations have made valiant attempts at doing just that, those that are led by men who see the problem, and have implemented alterations to deal with the ruptured artery of traditional churchdom.

This thread is an opportunity to address ideas, brainstorm some ideas, and explore the weaknesses and strengths...if people are so inclined to become involved. With it being summer, this may limp along through the season with so much activity all about. But, hey, I thought it might interest others who may be looking for ways to strengthen their fellow believers, even if their senior pastor remains aloof to the existence of the cracks. Those two atheists prompted me to launch out into this to see what might come forth.

Thanks for your feedback. Much appreciated.

MM

I misunderstood your point.

As for me.....there is no reason why any church can not do what ever they want to do. The needs and desires of those who fund their church should be the 1st thing considered.

If they want to start at 2:00 in the afternoon...do it.

Again.....there are no written rules anywhere and what we see in operation today is from tradition.

What ever is decided to be done, you will know the success of the decision if "more" or "less" people attend.

 

[Musicmaster]

Sorry, I thought you were referring to the order of Sunday School/Sermon and which should come first. In every Church I have attended it was a 'political' matter being left up to the Elders or Voters Meeting.

Hmm. Ok. I think I see the foundation of your question. To that extent, yes. It would be political, but based upon a concept for change, which is the dynamic I'm addressing.

So, if we go to the beginning of any process for developing a reason, and then a method, for any improvement to the building up of believers, the first question we'd ask is "why?"

I've addressed that already, but will reiterate:

The basic need for discipling isn't being met by the elements of the traditional model for meeting. We begin by exploring the intended purpose for the gathering.

Romans 15:2 Let every one of us please [his] neighbour for [his] good to edification.

Nope. That's the job of those who are hired or who have position to do so.

1 Corinthians 14:26 How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.

Nope. You sit there with with the rest of the audience, and not a peep from you until it's done on que...

Ephesians 4:16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

Nope. Nada. Only the parts hired for the job, or those entrusted to knowingly convey the pet doctrines of the group's doctrinal statement and/or creed. Qualification for teaching what the Bible actually says of of lesser importance.

Here's one that goes mostly ignored on many levels, but still says what it says:

Ephesians 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

Woops...maybe we should look more closely at the context of this one:

Ephesians 4:11-16

11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

Nope. Ministry is traditionally viewed as the job of those hired to do it by the congregation, or who are compensated from the treasury, and therefore considered "qualified" to minister.

13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

Nope. teaching is the magic formula for accomplishing this in most circles, and the show must go on in spite of the utter failure of our traditions.

14 That we [henceforth] be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, [and] cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

Nope. Far too many professing believers walk about knowing no more about the Bible than that one, most famous verse: JUDGE NOT!

15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, [even] Christ:

"Sorry, Jesus. You must share the lime light by just sitting over there and let us do what's expected of us, and what was taught to us by our institutions of higher learning as our qualification for mandating and continuing historic traditions."

16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

I could walk in to just about any congregation gathering and ask brother Hubbub what he knows about the greatest joys and deepest sorrows of sister Downcast over on the other side of the auditorium, and chances are good he would not know much of anything about her. That joint simply doesn't exist as a functioning part of the whole. The belief about being "fitted together" is relegated to the realm of the ethereal, spiritual, not relationships among the independent body.

See, if we aren't cohesive and joined together as the local body in that precious building, then how are we going to carry that mentality out into the rest of the world, being joined together with other believers? If we aren't built up in knowledge, strength and power resulting from an effectual discipling from another mature believer, then how will we even see ourselves as a unified whole through the eyes of Christ Jesus. Many are walking away with absolutely no experiential relationship with Christ, and most blame those individuals rather than to blame ourselves for the lack of one-on-one, or one-on-three, or whatever, discipleship.

I was never brought to any degree of experience in that relationship just by listening to some guy behind a pulpit, smiling broadly while taking about his personal walk. I never could relate. That smile was meaningless. I didn't understand what was behind it. I wanted it, but just never could understand how to get there. Nobody would take me by the hand and lead me there through discipleship.

So, there's the "why" in a nut shell. Not exhaustive by any means, but it gets the message across. The need is greater than what most are willing to admit. We all like to think we're doing a great job, but when the structured, iron fist of traditions keep you and me from being a functional believer who leads others in discipleship, those of us who are mature in the faith, then we're just another audience member who are not a part of the "ministry team" who only meets with those seeking that discipleship, once a week...maybe.

How many of you would want your relationship with your wife to be a once-a-week event?

Uh, never mind. Don't answer that. Bad example. She might be reading your posts...

Anyway, You get the gist. The cracks are wide, and many are falling through. Playing the game of chance as to who moves on to relationship with Christ, and those who don't, this is totally wrong. Traditions hold those cracks wide open for plenty to fall through. Most don't want relationship with others, having been raised in a culture of self-sufficiency and self-reliance. We tend to want to remain in a defensive mode, never opening ourselves up to potential transparency. That's dangerous in a culture of gossips and mean-spirited professors of Christ who are the tools of Satan in our midst. Therefore the reason Paul called us who are mature in Christ to be men who are blameless.

Thoughts?

MM

 

[Musicmaster]

I misunderstood your point.

As for me.....there is no reason why any church can not do what ever they want to do. The needs and desires of those who fund their church should be the 1st thing considered.

If they want to start at 2:00 in the afternoon...do it.

Again.....there are no written rules anywhere and what we see in operation today is from tradition.

What ever is decided to be done, you will know the success of the decision if "more" or "less" people attend.

The order of things is just one aspect of all this, although one of the biggies. That's why I used it as the launching point for this. The sheer power of tradition is something that most don't ever stop and consider just how overbearing it is in our thinking. Look what it did to the very thinking of the Pharisees. They were evil to the core, having no clue as to what hypocrites they were/are, men who made twice the sons of Hell than themselves.

WOW! That's some serious stuff! And here we are, walking through century after century, playing with that stick of dynamite as if it were stable and never going to blow up in our faces. The problem is that those who are falling through the cracks are doing so mostly in a quiet and unassuming manner, going mostly unnoticed by the general populace of the congregation and leadership. Leaving to the individual to fill out a card so that the professional staffing can pick up on their presence on the date indicated on the card, and looking to see if the individual selected that they WANTED to be contacted. If there was nobody there to come up along side them when they were there, some card isn't going to magically replace the warmness of someone coming up along side them, and guiding them into a fellowship and discipleship in a system that promotes that.

Here's a hard hitter: How do you suppose the cults are so successful? They do the very thing that churches claiming to be rooted in the Bible are NOT doing. They put their arms around the newbies and disciple them into their lies and deceptions. They make efforts in the very area we ignore by way of our attitudes and our traditions.

MM

 

[Major]

The order of things is just one aspect of all this, although one of the biggies. That's why I used it as the launching point for this. The sheer power of tradition is something that most don't ever stop and consider just how overbearing it is in our thinking. Look what it did to the very thinking of the Pharisees. They were evil to the core, having no clue as to what hypocrites they were/are, men who made twice the sons of Hell than themselves.

WOW! That's some serious stuff! And here we are, walking through century after century, playing with that stick of dynamite as if it were stable and never going to blow up in our faces. The problem is that those who are falling through the cracks are doing so mostly in a quiet and unassuming manner, going mostly unnoticed by the general populace of the congregation and leadership. Leaving to the individual to fill out a card so that the professional staffing can pick up on their presence on the date indicated on the card, and looking to see if the individual selected that they WANTED to be contacted. If there was nobody there to come up along side them when they were there, some card isn't going to magically replace the warmness of someone coming up along side them, and guiding them into a fellowship and discipleship in a system that promotes that.

Here's a hard hitter: How do you suppose the cults are so successful? They do the very thing that churches claiming to be rooted in the Bible are NOT doing. They put their arms around the newbies and disciple them into their lies and deceptions. They make efforts in the very area we ignore by way of our attitudes and our traditions.

MM

The cults and ism are succesful because they are all MAN focused on works and not on the Man-God of Jesus as the Christ.

"The heart of man is deceitful".

Cults are marketed and promoted as organizations that promote self-betterment, whether that means the promise of enlightenment in the case of tantric sex cults or the skills to make all of their professional dreams comes true.

Most people are on a life mission to improve themselves as a person or a professional and that alone opens the door to a cult.

Then there is the human factor that comes from the fact that we as humans are "Pack" oriented. Folks who long for greater human connection may also be more likely to fall victim to a cult. Close relationships are a human need. By capitalizing on this proclivity, cults can be that much more insidious.

Then there has been many, many interviews done with former cultists who have said that they would've never joined the cult if they weren't going through a difficult life event at the time they were approached to join. That means that people who were recently diagnosed with terminal or chronic illnesses, or are living on their own for the first time, or experienced the death of a loved one, or had a serious career blunder tend to be in fragile states, and therefore might join a group they might not otherwise acknowledge.

 

[Musicmaster]

The cults and ism are succesful because they are all MAN focused on works and not on the Man-God of Jesus as the Christ.

"The heart of man is deceitful".

Cults are marketed and promoted as organizations that promote self-betterment, whether that means the promise of enlightenment in the case of tantric sex cults or the skills to make all of their professional dreams comes true.

Most people are on a life mission to improve themselves as a person or a professional and that alone opens the door to a cult.

Then there is the human factor that comes from the fact that we as humans are "Pack" oriented. Folks who long for greater human connection may also be more likely to fall victim to a cult. Close relationships are a human need. By capitalizing on this proclivity, cults can be that much more insidious.

Then there has been many, many interviews done with former cultists who have said that they would've never joined the cult if they weren't going through a difficult life event at the time they were approached to join. That means that people who were recently diagnosed with terminal or chronic illnesses, or are living on their own for the first time, or experienced the death of a loved one, or had a serious career blunder tend to be in fragile states, and therefore might join a group they might not otherwise acknowledge.

I can say, from experience, that what I said is true to a greater extent than anyone who has not been there would ever imagine.

I was a Mormon for about a year while in the military, young and dumb. I was raised Southern Baptist, and crossed over to Mormonism. Why? Because I was not discipled by anyone, and I was ignorant of the deeper beliefs of the Mormons. As they drew me in deeper into their fold BECAUSE they were willing to disciple me, which they did, I began the slow transformation into their beliefs...up to a point.

What threw me for a loop is when I began to study the Bible on my own, trying to discover the beliefs I was learning, and couldn't find them in there. I asked questions about all that, and they "lovingly" encouraged me to not study the Bible on my own, but rather do it with them. (shrug) Ok. Whatever. I was too much a troublemaker to take that to heart, so I continued my study, and asked more questions. That got their goat. That was simply my being a loos cannon, and they weren't going to have that. It got to the point that they got angry, demanded that I simply accept what I'd been taught, and stop questioning.

Being the personality I am, that was the WRONG thing to say to me, and that was the beginning of the end for me. Those people gathered together ALL the time. We were like family. I never had that anywhere else in all my experience. Major, never underestimate the sheer power that unity has. It makes all the difference. I was amazed at how stupid I had been, and how easily I was deceived. I allowed the familial relations to overshadow my better sense about what I knew to be true.

I'm not suggesting that we use relationship like a family to dupe anyone. As long as we continue to point ONLY to the Lord, and that those we disciple continue their personal study and prayer relationship with the Lord, we avoid the cultic trappings over the minds and emotions of those whom we disciple. I tell people that I'm not looking for a following; that I want them to seek out and follow ONLY the Lord. It's all about Him. The Mormons in my circle of influence didn't do that. I could clearly see it was all about being a Mormon. Christ was somewhere way back in the back seats of the buss. It was all about being true to the apostles and the prophet and the stake.

So, having been there and done that, I can say with every qualification that it has much more to do with discipleship and relationship than what most people realize. We can teach all the truth in the Bible, and people still fall through the cracks because of our seeming cold indifference to their need for discipleship and familial relationships.

MM

 

[CPerkins]

I can say, from experience, that what I said is true to a greater extent than anyone who has not been there would ever imagine.

I was a Mormon for about a year while in the military, young and dumb. I was raised Southern Baptist, and crossed over to Mormonism. Why? Because I was not discipled by anyone, and I was ignorant of the deeper beliefs of the Mormons. As they drew me in deeper into their fold BECAUSE they were willing to disciple me, which they did, I began the slow transformation into their beliefs...up to a point.

What threw me for a loop is when I began to study the Bible on my own, trying to discover the beliefs I was learning, and couldn't find them in there. I asked questions about all that, and they "lovingly" encouraged me to not study the Bible on my own, but rather do it with them. (shrug) Ok. Whatever. I was too much a troublemaker to take that to heart, so I continued my study, and asked more questions. That got their goat. That was simply my being a loos cannon, and they weren't going to have that. It got to the point that they got angry, demanded that I simply accept what I'd been taught, and stop questioning.

Being the personality I am, that was the WRONG thing to say to me, and that was the beginning of the end for me. Those people gathered together ALL the time. We were like family. I never had that anywhere else in all my experience. Major, never underestimate the sheer power that unity has. It makes all the difference. I was amazed at how stupid I had been, and how easily I was deceived. I allowed the familial relations to overshadow my better sense about what I knew to be true.

I'm not suggesting that we use relationship like a family to dupe anyone. As long as we continue to point ONLY to the Lord, and that those we disciple continue their personal study and prayer relationship with the Lord, we avoid the cultic trappings over the minds and emotions of those whom we disciple. I tell people that I'm not looking for a following; that I want them to seek out and follow ONLY the Lord. It's all about Him. The Mormons in my circle of influence didn't do that. I could clearly see it was all about being a Mormon. Christ was somewhere way back in the back seats of the buss. It was all about being true to the apostles and the prophet and the stake.

So, having been there and done that, I can say with every qualification that it has much more to do with discipleship and relationship than what most people realize. We can teach all the truth in the Bible, and people still fall through the cracks because of our seeming cold indifference to their need for discipleship and familial relationships.

MM

I agree though my experience with various church denominations is limited, I had a similar experience growing up with a different church considered a cult by many. They were much more close knit, appeared more loving and Christian. I've never had a church family experience similar in any other church setting. It was not uncommon for many people to come early and stay late to fellowship with their church family.

 

[Musicmaster]

I agree though my experience with various church denominations is limited, I had a similar experience growing up with a different church considered a cult by many. They were much more close knit, appeared more loving and Christian. I've never had a church family experience similar in any other church setting. It was not uncommon for many people to come early and stay late to fellowship with their church family.

It's nice to know I'm not alone in such experiences, and that we're both here, right now, as believers in biblical integrity.

MM