Order of Events in the Gathering?
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So, why is there a mixture? If I were in such a group, I'd be asking why the "babes" on the milk remain that way for so long, with only a few rising up to maturity. There should be a great degree of discomfort for them to remain as such. The desire to grow should be promoted with encouragement through teaching. Far too many people assume that the system, as it works today, and has worked through much of traditional past, will bring all those people to maturity in the faith, and yet we don't see the evidence of that assumption panning out in reality.
This world needs more spiritual giants who reach out to others and grow them up.
Ahh, but how do we avoid a drive such as this from becoming just another "program" as with so many other programs we've all seen through the years that came and went? They rise and then fall by the wayside, fading away into the mists of time without them taking hold with a force powerful enough to become an organic change to mindsets?
I mean...look, I'm not trying to promote rocket science here, nor psychology. Dare we go to the root of it all, we see seething masses of servants of Satan, working always to tear down anything that would effect a positive change to the DNA of typical regliosity behind so much of what is a success in churchianity, and remains so to this day. Defining that success is to just look at what we have right now.
It's inevitable that someone will point to the variants from group to group, as if that's proof positive for this alteration in DNA. The problem is that these variants have remained the way they are in perpetuity without becoming the very DNA altering force that the modern COVID (so-called) vaccines do to bodies. People flocks to pharmacies to get one of those DNA altering shots that they have no idea what it will do to them, but dare someone suggest a change in the churchianity DNA, and Hell hath no fury...
THAT is the working of the enemy of our souls. Fear of the unknown helps to keep things as they are. Revolution requires bravery, prayer, a resolute soul, fixed jaw, and an eye on the goal, but it MUST originate from the Lord. Where it's true the Lord in the past chose men who resisted His nudges in the direction of what He wanted them to do and to go where He wanted them to go, building a body of men willing to do what's already written and lived out in the life of Paul, who spent considerable time and effort building up fellow giants in the faith, that is likely something that will have the backing of our Lord, but we would have to seek Him collectively, and wait upon Him to smash through the veil of evil all around us to empower us in any such effort. It can start in our own churches, or wherever the Lord directs.
Another inevitability is there will always be some out there who want a book and/or pamphlets that spawn...yes, you guessed it...ANOTHER PROGRAM! No! Absolutely not. I'm talking about something that is Spirit-driven, not program-based. Many want a well laid out plan that defines the work, the goal, and who's in charge. No. There can be no plan that fits all people and situations. Being led by the Spirit is how the variations in people and non-typicalities are overcome.
Programs mostly promote a cosmetic change, such as men becoming better husbands and fathers, with little to no lasting, powerful support structure to hold up what originated from the strength of men and the monetary backing that assisted in driving the program toward the success in numbers and emotional excitement...until it faded away, dissolving into the feverish pace and chaos of everyday living. Such visions end up bigger than the men behind it, and they are powerless to keep it growing and perpetuating. Their names on the cover of books and training material was nothing but notoriety. So, they did the usual, human thing, which is to bring in more hard-hitters whose names are famous in religious circles, and none of it sufficed.
Having observed the rise to success, and fall into obscurity, it became apparent to me the flaws that seem to keep repeating, over and over. It must be the Lord, and by His Spirit, Him remaining in the limelight, center stage, and the only force by which it moves forward. All I'm suggesting is a change in our thinking...those of us who are mature in the faith, willing to be subject to all the Lord gives to us to do. It's too easy to leave it up to the programs and the model of churchianity we've all come to love so much. Leaving it to others and something else...is that the answer the Lord is confirming in your hearts? If so, then this isn't for you.
Those who remain fixated on what fosters and retains the slow-to-no growth paradigms, they are where they want to be. We don't need them. They are the lukewarm the Lord spews from His mouth. I'm appealing to those whose hearts are not fixated on the status quo...those who will not give up when the force and power of all that's typical in human frailties and disparities tries to settle in on them, pushing them back into a life of little to no effectiveness for the Lord and His babes in Christ who need us desperately to help them grow. We sometimes have to have large feet of loving-kindness, big enough to kick some keisters into action...maybe not as drastic as being swallowed by a fish, but with enough force to light that flame of desire for the things of God in a life that's in serious need of a kick-start...
This isn't about you joining with me. If you think that, you've missed the point entirely. This is about us collectively joining with Holy Spirit, seeking out the Lord fervently to serve Him through growing others to maturity who need it so desperately, and likely don't know it, and therefore remain disillusioned, only to fall through the cracks, as discussed before. It will be an up-hill battle, but the battle belongs to the Lord no less. It may be slow at first, and even remain slow, winning one battle at a time, but each soul that's firmly fixated upon the solid Rock, that is a soul who can then be added to the number of servants of the Lord for Him to use for His purposes in the lives of others none of us may have ever met in this life.
This won't have some catchy name and millions of dollars and members behind it whose names are famous, and therefore as merely an effort originating from puny men. This will have the Power behind it Who created this universe, and sustains it by His Power to this very moment. He's the One in charge, not me, you or anyone else among us. It's all about Him. If you're looking for a following, then may the Lord move you on with whatever you set out to do. We don't need you. This requires all egos to be set aside.
So, pray about this. Let this be the gentle push into allowing the Lord to use you who are mature in the faith to change the DNA of the status quo in the lives of whomsoever He prepares for you to take under your wing.
If this is too radical, then, again, this ain't for you. Get lost... Hey, just kidding. If this seems not for you, then pray about it and let the Lord confirm that to you, and therefore use you in whatever capacity He so empowers you toward. There are many gifts in the spiritual life in Christ. Not everyone is empowered to help others to grow in spiritual stature.
So, this is where you take it from here, and see where the Lord leads you. You are HIs creation, not mine or anyone else. He is your Master, not me or anyone else. You are His servant, not mine. Seek Him to do with you as He so pleases.
Me? What am I? I am His servant...and yours.
MM
That is a lot to read and digest.
I believe I understand what you are saying, but I can be corrected. Let me see if this applies...........
Matthew 7:22-23........
"Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."
Then to the Christian church at Sardis Jesus said to them in Revelation 3:15............
"I know thy works, that thou art neither - Bible Gateway I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth. I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot."
The soon coming resurrection of saints will not be for all church members all of the world. It will be for a specific number of "born again" people who are sold out for Christ. There will be a lot of surprised and depressed "church members" the day after the resurrection of sanits.
There is in my opinion today a "culling out" process where the ones on the fence are being pushed to get off the fence.
If church members are in a church where their pastor is not preaching the glory, perfection and saving grace of the Lord Jesus but is instead "talking" about philosophy and the goodness of man......those people are making the choice to hear what they want to hear.
IF God did not intend these Scriptures to be in effect for today, then when were they intended......2 Timothy 4:2-5............
"Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. 3For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; 4And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables."
Anyone is free to disagree with my opinion as that is exactly what it is......but it seems to me that this is the reason why church attendance has been on the decline now for 50 years. FLUFF and PROGRAMS have replace the preaching of the only way to heaven and people have decided that the "old fashioned" gospel way is not good enough for them today.
Just a thouht and that thought may not be what your post was about.
Being a disciple is what we ALL are, male and female. The Lord desires disciples who are completely desiring to function and in the capacity He has given to them. Women who have a desire to lead others as doctrinal authorities, they are not of Christ, but we are ALL disciples...even those of us working in the kitchen.
Lanolin, please don't let that spirit drive things like this into you. We've all been touched by the feministic bent upon using extremes as the drive behind a heart set upon rebellion. In the Church, the Lord Himself is the One who laid down boundaries in function. Yes, it is men who exercise authority in the arena of doctrinal teaching, but we all serve in the capacity the Lord has given to us. No one function is more important than another, and yet feminism drives so many to desire what isn't theirs for the taking. Usurping what isn't mine is sin. The same applies to us all. Desiring what isn't mine for the taking, that too is a sinful desire, and should be resisted.
D. James Kennedy once repeated a statement written by someone else, and I don't recall the name. It went along the lines of how the hand that rocks the cradle is the hand that rules the world. There is something to that.
In that kitchen of which you spoke, Lanolin, if they are there serving the Lord in the capacity He has given to them, how could that be such a bad thing to disparage? Is that not the work of the devil to negate and belittle a critical function in service to the Lord? Did not the Lord say that those who are obscure will be elevated greatly by Him? Did He not say that the one who entered the banquet, and seated themselves in the far back, obscure seat, would be taken by the arm and led to the most prominent seats?
It's all about attitude in humility. You are a disciple of just as great of value to the Lord as all others.
So, in spite of what you may have perceived about what someone else was saying, the questions is: What's in your heart? If someone says to me that I'm nothing, and belong out back shoveling trash, I simply go, grab the shovel, and start shoveling the trash out back, and if the Master comes out there, takes me by the arm, cleans me up, and seats me wherever He desires that I serve, then it's to His glory. That's the servant's heart he's after, not the cantankerous servant demanding the more prominent places.
You likely know all this. Sometimes, however, it helps to be reminded of who it is trying to drive us to use extremes to justify lashing out.
MM
You pretty much said it yourself, about the focus being upon programs and "fluff." Attendance levels at churchianity seems to be the measure most look upon, and yet, again, you said it about how only some in those places will be taken in the resurrection, with many left in shock at the departure they were not a part of. No matter whether one agrees or disagrees about that scenario, we all can agree that attendance at churchianity isn't what's going to grow all of them into the direction of the fullness of the stature of Christ Jesus in their individual lives.
My aim was to point out that discipleship into giants in the faith is something that must be done one-on-one, or some combination of numbers that allows for interactive teaching and sharing, which is a level of relationship that no sermonizing and Sunday school can't possibly touch. Teaching for growth MUST be relational. The detachments inherent within sermonizing/teaching from up on stage, and "I teach, you listen" in Sunday school, with discussions and interaction limited by the constraints of time and the buzzer that signals everyone to head into the auditorium to populate the audience...leaving it to all that, no. That misses the need. All that stuff is fine and dandy, so far as it goes, but leaving discipleship to those things rather than for the giants to actively disciple in a relational setting where the 40 minute buzzer won't interrupt, and they are seeing more than just the back of the heads of fellow believers, thinking THAT is fellowship...! No. It's a time for learning, but nowhere in all that will they see into the life of a mature believer, gleaning from that believer the stability of faith and experiential relationship in Christ Jesus the spiritual babes need to badly.
Does that clarify it better?
MM
I believe that we are on the same page. Maturity in the Christian life can only come through the study of the Word of God and NOT anyones opinions and ideas.
At 1st I used to ask why? Don't you guys have watches????
After hearing the same answer several times....."we were so engrossed and excited about what the Bible lesson was about, we lost track of time"............I never asked again. I just said------"Parise God for great teachers who hold the attention of their classes"!!!!!!
Well to answer Lanolin's question......Yes, that is exactly what Jesus did.
Mark 16:14.........
"Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen. 15And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature."
1 Tim. 3:1-3............
This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work. 2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;".
The men were given the mandate to advance God’s kingdom and carry the gospel message. The fact that Jesus initially chose men, appointing them as apostles, has often been used as evidence that men are the true leaders of the church. But contrary to this line of thinking, scripture tells us that God is not partial to working with men:
Then Peter began to speak to them: “I truly understand that God shows no partiality, but in every nation anyone who fears him and does what is right is acceptable to him.” —Acts 10:34-35
You do well if you really fulfill the royal law according to the scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” But if you show partiality, you commit sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors. —Jas. 2:8-9
For God shows no partiality. —Rom. 2:11
So why then is still the question.
The answer regarding why Jesus initially chose 12 men just may be found within the story of Noah — specifically from Noah's sin. This is something very rarely spoken of or even considered today. What was that sin?????
Noah’s sin stems from the issue that God commanded him to enter and exit the ark in a very specific order. First, Noah was commanded to enter the ark in the “fallen” order, meaning he was to enter with his sons at his side, followed by his wife and his son’s wives. But then, when exiting the ark, God switched things up, “Then God said to Noah, ‘Go out of the ark, you and your wife, and your sons and your sons’ wives with you'” (Gen. 8:16).
So Noah went out with his sons and his wife and his sons’ wives. —Gen. 8:18.
Unfortunately, Noah didn’t exactly exit with his wife. Instead, Noah walked out with his sons. Imagine the ark with all the animals departing for the new cleansed-by-water world — two-by-two — male united with female.
Bears: male and female; monkeys: male and female.
The only pair that emerges differently is Noah and his family. They don’t come out two-by-two, male and female as God commanded.
They come out of the ark two-by-two male united with male, and female united with female. Noah and his family came out of the waters of baptism unchanged. They came out the same way they went in.
Something to consider......ya think!
When I look at the lives of Abraham and Moses, it took years of maturity, God's grace and hard knocks.
Teaching alone doesn't guarantee maturity and if handled wrongly, ends up in pride.
CN, you're right. With man, nothing is guaranteed apart from an appointment with death. I'm not sure why you'd think there's a problem with teaching alone (one-on-one). We're never alone, as you know. I've done it many times, and left behind someone who was once a fledgling, who are now flying with wings (so to speak).
This is not an endeavor for the squeamish and faint of heart. I've had as many as three under my wing at a time, and they're walking this world seeking out others. I didn't duplicate myself in them. They are the Lord's, lock, stock and barrel...(again, so to speak).
MM
Sorry, I didn't mean by 'alone' as in one-on-one but rather teaching in and by itself is no guarantee to growth. I mentioned God's grace and trials are needed as well.
Ah, you meant one of those "lone star" types. Ok. I get it.
Actually, it was the Lord who led me out of the institutional scene to become a "lone star" type so that He could deal with me...to show me what I was really made of out there in that wilderness. And what a journey that was...
MM
I'm really batting about a minus 30 today.
Sorry again, lets try a verse...
2 Timothy 3:7 (KJV) Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
Whether surrounded by teachers or off learning on their own, a person could 'gobble up' biblical knowledge, but unless the Lord's hand is attending it (God's grace), and they are kept in check by trials (knowledge puffs up) the learning will not guarantee maturity.
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Agreed. Therein is why I emphasized prayer, and the Lord being the One who initiates any and all the work to bring others to maturity in the faith.
MM
Oh, and I'll be offline over the next week due to my having to travel to Californication early in the morning for all next week for my job. I'll out in the boondocks somewhere north of LA, out in the middle of nowhere. I'm really not looking forward to going there, but it's necessary. They don't have internet out there so far as I know, so I'm not taking my computer. Not even sure if there's cell service yet. Hopefully none of the encamped illegals and homeless out there start yet another fire and burn us all up to a crisp like they've done so many previous years to the residents there.
No, it just seems the kitchen is a mess that the men have left behind for the women, and barring women from learning.
I reckon If Jesus said to Mary come learn don't worry about the kitchen, and told her it was the most important thing, then it is. Sorry Martha, it can wait.
You obviously have no idea what it's like for women and seem to have this weird idea that women aren't called. We are. It seems to be men who are stopping us from entering. No woman is ever going to barge in on a man's ego trip thing. But it was Jesus has invited us! So there's no point in arguing that women are inferior and aren't allowed to learn.
We're like ok, we need to do twice as much work and don't complain about it, yet it's always the men who complain about women learning making them seem like the men can't achieve as much.
I reckon If Jesus said to Mary come learn don't worry about the kitchen, and told her it was the most important thing, then it is. Sorry Martha, it can wait.
You obviously have no idea what it's like for women and seem to have this weird idea that women aren't called. We are. It seems to be men who are stopping us from entering. No woman is ever going to barge in on a man's ego trip thing. But it was Jesus has invited us! So there's no point in arguing that women are inferior and aren't allowed to learn.
We're like ok, we need to do twice as much work and don't complain about it, yet it's always the men who complain about women learning making them seem like the men can't achieve as much.
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When I'm taking a class, I notice that girls are much more focused than the boys. The girls are intent on learning, and the boys seem to muck around. I think it's because the girls know that it's important to learn and the boys kind of assume they don't need to learn.
For example, in the library, the girls go look for books. They actually read the books. The boys PRETEND to read. They get in a group, they have books, but really they are just chatting with each other, and looking at the pictures. You ask them, what have you been reading and they can't tell me what the book is about. lol
Some boys actually do read, and I love that. I love talking to them about their books and them sharing. But many boys don't. They think it's beneath them to learn. They have this attitude. Its really strange.
For example, in the library, the girls go look for books. They actually read the books. The boys PRETEND to read. They get in a group, they have books, but really they are just chatting with each other, and looking at the pictures. You ask them, what have you been reading and they can't tell me what the book is about. lol
Some boys actually do read, and I love that. I love talking to them about their books and them sharing. But many boys don't. They think it's beneath them to learn. They have this attitude. Its really strange.
Call President Biden and I am sure that he can have the vice President come and help you.
IF you are speaking to me...(Major) I have no ideas at all! I have been married 52 years and I know exactly what the equality of women are.
All I did was to post the Scripture of what God said about the Apostles and who qualifies as a Pastor. I was not confided with on those qualifications.
NO one said that women are inferior!!!! YOU said that and I said the opposite and quoted the Scriptures that says just that.
Men and Women are equal but in the area of family responsibility, GOD has deemed it that the man would be the head in authority.
1 Cor. 11:3 –
“But I want you to understand that the head of every man is Christ, the head of a woman is her husband, and the head of Christ is God"
IMO, for what ever it is worth to anyone, I believe that Jesus called 12 men to be His disciples/apostles because He knew that it was going to be an extremely hard job. There would be lots of travel, persecution, pain, suffering, snake bites, poision water and very little to eat.
Now that is just my opinion.
Say hi to some of my home boys (homeys) while you are out there, and BTW even the illegals have FB on their Palm gods out this way. LOL.
Teaching though is more than the words one hears, it is also the actions one sees as well. In fact I believe that mentors teach more through action than words. There are so few good examples around many of us to show what acting in faith and love is all about.
I agree though that learning to apply what we learn takes years of experience. For most of us hard knocks were necessary because there were so few or no good mentors around. Learning to apply God's teachings to our lives doesn't happen overnight.