Order of Events in the Gathering?

[crossnote]

God's chosen people have always kept 'His day', the Lords Day as it is called in scripture.From Moses to John the revelator.

Revelations 1:10- I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

Thanks RDJ, referring to the Lord's day in Rev 1:10, here is what I found in The Bible Knowledge Commentary...

John’s revelation occurred on the Lord’s Day while he was in the Spirit. Some have indicated that “the Lord’s Day” refers to the first day of the week. However, the word “Lord’s” is an adjective and this expression is never used in the Bible to refer to the first day of the week. Probably John was referring to the day of the Lord, a familiar expression in both Testaments.

As in adjective, Arnold Fruchtenbaum prefers calling it 'the lordy's day'

 

[Musicmaster]

No, it just seems the kitchen is a mess that the men have left behind for the women, and barring women from learning.

I reckon If Jesus said to Mary come learn don't worry about the kitchen, and told her it was the most important thing, then it is. Sorry Martha, it can wait.

You obviously have no idea what it's like for women and seem to have this weird idea that women aren't called. We are. It seems to be men who are stopping us from entering. No woman is ever going to barge in on a man's ego trip thing. But it was Jesus has invited us! So there's no point in arguing that women are inferior and aren't allowed to learn.

We're like ok, we need to do twice as much work and don't complain about it, yet it's always the men who complain about women learning making them seem like the men can't achieve as much.

Um, I need some help here. Who were you addressing?

MM

 

[Musicmaster]

Call President Biden and I am sure that he can have the vice President come and help you.

Oh, not you don't. I work for the DoD, not those two directly...blessedly. I'm not much for going around as a stuffed suit...

MM

 

[Musicmaster]

Say hi to some of my home boys (homeys) while you are out there, and BTW even the illegals have FB on their Palm gods out this way. LOL.

Oh, my. I mentioned the name "palm god" to those people out there in Santa Maria, and they flipped...those who have kids walking around bumping into light poles along the street from walking while worshipping their palm gods. Parents out there thought it was a hoot. I may have started a new Californication trend for naming those things among the youth.

MM

 

[crossnote]

Oh, my. I mentioned the name "palm god" to those people out there in Santa Maria, and they flipped...those who have kids walking around bumping into light poles along the street from walking while worshipping their palm gods. Parents out there thought it was a hoot. I may have started a new Californication trend for naming those things among the youth.

MM

I don't know about the youth, as they seem allergic to any thing associated with god (except all their false ones) but to this ol' cogger it was a home run.

 

[Musicmaster]

Hey brothers..unfortunately we cant change the institution..we either stay or we get out..find like minded brothers and gather in one anothers homes..where 2 or 3 are gathered in his name, our Lord Jesus Christ will be there.

The 'church institution' and the order in which they do things are traditions passed down by our fathers and their fathers and so on.

Isaiah 29:13- Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:

Ezekiel 20:18..But I said unto their children in the wilderness, Walk ye not in the statutes of your fathers, neither observe their judgments, nor defile yourselves with their idols

The Isrealites were warned and then punished because they kept their fathers traditions rather than the commandments of God..We are doing the same thing today as a church.

Matthew 15:9-But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

Why do we build church buildings?I dont see that in the bible..why do the buildings have names?Division starts here.We say,I am catholic, I am babtist, I am Lutheran and so on..Does anyone see the link between what im saying and this next verse?

1Corinth 1:12-Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ. Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?

Are we not carnal minded as Paul goes on to say?

True fellowship unfortunately does not happen at the 'church building' on a Sunday. The order of things will never change.

There is so much more to be said..thanks great thread

Umm, are you sure about that? Are you sure it doesn't say, "Where two or three hundred are gathered..."?

But seriously, you're right. Institutionalism has a loooong history of inflexibility, which is detrimental. Why?

Well, simply stated, I've heard it many times said that dare Paul of Tarsus show up to apply for the pastorate at just about any one of them, and he would be rejected outright for the position.

Now, in the spirit of applying balance to the approach to this topic, institutionalism has been a tremendous tool in the hands of the Most High. He has done some amazing and wondrous things through the institutional model. What we're seeing is the influx of more and more liberal theologies, and so the mass apostacy is inevitable once the corruptions peak at whatever point that turning away becomes an observable event. What that will look like, we can only see it in the pieces and parts all around us, but they will one day join together collectively, and affix their eyes of loving adoration upon the false purveyors of a corrupt message that will literally ring with that off-tune chime that one can hear in horror movies.

So, ultimately, I would only recommend change so long as it originates with the Lord. If from men, then I walk away from it, and knock the dust off my feet at the doorway.

MM

 

[RDJ]

Thanks RDJ, referring to the Lord's day in Rev 1:10, here is what I found in The Bible Knowledge Commentary...

John’s revelation occurred on the Lord’s Day while he was in the Spirit. Some have indicated that “the Lord’s Day” refers to the first day of the week. However, the word “Lord’s” is an adjective and this expression is never used in the Bible to refer to the first day of the week. Probably John was referring to the day of the Lord, a familiar expression in both Testaments.

As in adjective, Arnold Fruchtenbaum prefers calling it 'the lordy's day'

Ok..

Umm, are you sure about that? Are you sure it doesn't say, "Where two or three hundred are gathered..."?

But seriously, you're right. Institutionalism has a loooong history of inflexibility, which is detrimental. Why?

Well, simply stated, I've heard it many times said that dare Paul of Tarsus show up to apply for the pastorate at just about any one of them, and he would be rejected outright for the position.

Now, in the spirit of applying balance to the approach to this topic, institutionalism has been a tremendous tool in the hands of the Most High. He has done some amazing and wondrous things through the institutional model. What we're seeing is the influx of more and more liberal theologies, and so the mass apostacy is inevitable once the corruptions peak at whatever point that turning away becomes an observable event. What that will look like, we can only see it in the pieces and parts all around us, but they will one day join together collectively, and affix their eyes of loving adoration upon the false purveyors of a corrupt message that will literally ring with that off-tune chime that one can hear in horror movies.

So, ultimately, I would only recommend change so long as it originates with the Lord. If from men, then I walk away from it, and knock the dust off my feet at the doorway.

MM

Lol..Im pretty sure the word hundred is not in the text.Although I wouldn't put it past you to pull out a greek word and tell me that the word hundred should have been there in my english translation.

Anyway..When you say 'institutional model' you mean the church?

What is worse than a person who does not know Jesus Christ?The answer -A person who thinks they know Christ.Its harder to convince a person of the truth who thinks they already know it(twice dead).

This is what our institutions breed.They breed 'christians who are twice dead.I really don't see the wonderous works.The general christian population don't even know when the Lords Day is.I mean really.

I've been dropping messages on this thread and im yet to get an appropriate response concerning the matters that I've raised with regards to tradition.

Yhe apostasy doesn't peak until Jesus returns.

 

[crossnote]

What is worse than a person who does not know Jesus Christ?The answer -A person who thinks they know Christ.Its harder to convince a person of the truth who thinks they already know it(twice dead).

Sounds like a case where a person receives just the right mixture of truth and error to inoculate them from being saved.

I've been dropping messages on this thread and im yet to get an appropriate response concerning the matters that I've raised with regards to tradition.

Sorry that none of my responses met your standard of 'appropriate'.

 

[Lanolin]

Um, I need some help here. Who were you addressing?

MM

I forgot
the poster above me who was being rather misogynistic.

I don't take too kindly to people who treat women badly and pick on women just because they are women.

Just pointing out that Jesus never did that. He valued women and delighted to see them learn and was willing to teach women. A lot of men don't think women can learn.

 

[crossnote]

I forgot
the poster above me who was being rather misogynistic.

I don't take too kindly to people who treat women badly and pick on women just because they are women.

Just pointing out that Jesus never did that. He valued women and delighted to see them learn and was willing to teach women. A lot of men don't think women can learn.

I know exactly which post you are referring to (after searching), but don’t you think it is better to quote the person you are addressing instead of addressing posts and leaving others wondering who you are speaking to? Besides that, it doesn’t give the addressee a chance to respond.

 

[Major]

Oh, not you don't. I work for the DoD, not those two directly...blessedly. I'm not much for going around as a stuffed suit...

MM

Better be carefull......there are eyes and ears everywhere.

 

[Major]

Hey Crossnote,I wasn't trying to point out your mistake,but rather using the opportunity to share the truth.

This thread is or was about 'order of events' or traditions.The humorous conversation you were having allowed me to present the mother of all traditions..which is the observance of Sunday as a Christian holy day over Saturday.

Im not 7th day Adventist or 7th day Baptist or anything else.Im just a follower of Jesus Christ.

Now from the beginning of creation,after God created everything,He rested the seventh day,He blessed and made that day holy.Now surely that blessing is woven into the fabric of that day,into the very fibre of part of his creation and can never be undone or changed.Everything he created then at the beginning still stands today.Considering that we serve a God who does not change,how then can we accept that He has changed the very foundation of His creation.Moreover there is zero evidence in the bible of such a change taking place.

God's chosen people have always kept 'His day', the Lords Day as it is called in scripture.From Moses to John the revelator.

Revelations 1:10- I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

The Lord Jesus Christ said that the sabbath was made for man.Yet some say its for literal jews only.

I dont steal.
I dont kill.
I honor my parents.
But dare I say I keep the Sabbath.Now Im accused of being under the law.

Can someone help me understand this obedience to man ?Or is this sabbath thing just my personal conviction, not for anyone else.

Ephesians 4:6-One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

This verse is truly fulfilled again by the observance of Sunday.

Mark 7:13- Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

IF you are working to keep the Sabbath....then you are under the law my friend.

Christians are not required to observe a weekly sabbath. Christians are under “the law of the Christ,” which does not include keeping the Sabbath. ( Galatians 6:2; Colossians 2:16, 17) Why can we be certain of that? First, consider the origin of the Sabbath.

The Sabbath law applied only to the people subject to the rest of the Law given through Moses. (Deuteronomy 5:2, 3; Ezekiel 20:10-12) God never required other people to observe a sabbath rest. In addition, even the Jews were “released from the Law” of Moses, including the Ten Commandments, by the sacrifice of Jesus Christ. (Romans 7:6, 7; 10:4; Galatians 3:24, 25; Ephesians 2:15) Rather than adhere to the Law of Moses, Christians follow the superior law of love.—Romans 13:9, 10; Hebrews 8:13.

The law was given to the Jews not to the church. It is actually that simples

What you are saying and doing IMO is a personal conviction.

 

[Major]

Ok..

Lol..Im pretty sure the word hundred is not in the text.Although I wouldn't put it past you to pull out a greek word and tell me that the word hundred should have been there in my english translation.

Anyway..When you say 'institutional model' you mean the church?

What is worse than a person who does not know Jesus Christ?The answer -A person who thinks they know Christ.Its harder to convince a person of the truth who thinks they already know it(twice dead).

This is what our institutions breed.They breed 'christians who are twice dead.I really don't see the wonderous works.The general christian population don't even know when the Lords Day is.I mean really.

I've been dropping messages on this thread and im yet to get an appropriate response concerning the matters that I've raised with regards to tradition.

Yhe apostasy doesn't peak until Jesus returns.

The Lord's Day in Christianity is generally Sunday, the principal day of communal worship. It is observed by most Christians as the weekly memorial of the resurrection of Jesus Christ, who is said in the canonical Gospels to have been witnessed alive from the dead early on the first day of the week.

The "Day of the Lord" is a Day of Calamity. The day of the Lord means destruction of the godless. With metaphor the prophets excel in describing the calamitous aspect of day of the Lord. Amos speaks of it as a day of darkness ( 5:18 ).

"Traditions" is when the ideas of men replace the Word of God. Kind of like, we need to observe the Sabbath if we are a Christian.

 

[Musicmaster]

Ok..

Lol..Im pretty sure the word hundred is not in the text.Although I wouldn't put it past you to pull out a greek word and tell me that the word hundred should have been there in my english translation.

Anyway..When you say 'institutional model' you mean the church?

What is worse than a person who does not know Jesus Christ?The answer -A person who thinks they know Christ.Its harder to convince a person of the truth who thinks they already know it(twice dead).

This is what our institutions breed.They breed 'christians who are twice dead.I really don't see the wonderous works.The general christian population don't even know when the Lords Day is.I mean really.

I've been dropping messages on this thread and im yet to get an appropriate response concerning the matters that I've raised with regards to tradition.

Yhe apostasy doesn't peak until Jesus returns.

Major, that was totally tongue-in-cheek about that hundred thingy. I went that direction because of the institutional types who've told me that home fellowships aren't legitimately "church" since we are so few in number and don't have a hired, degreed pastor, board of deacons, elected elders, house keeping crew, chandeliers, parking lots, manicured lawns (although some homes do), stained glass windows, steeples...(yawn) on and on the list could go. They think we sit around and socialize rather than to have a stringent, looking at the backs of other's heads, orchestrated, religious service with the majority being nothing more than an audience they hope are absorbing something of value, but don't ever stop to check...

Sorry. I sometimes throw in the elephants in the room that most ignore for the sake of feeling good about what they think is biblical, when in fact it isn't. I'm not saying it's anti-biblical apart from the one main aspect I've been discussing, which is the lack of effective discipleship.

So, don't worry (snicker, snicker), I won't pull a Greek word out of the hat on this topic since it was totally an ironic absurdity...hmm, that's a double whammy...

So, in response to your question, putting together the two expressions "institutional model" and "church" with a little "c", that's a hard one for me. I'd have to understand your definition of the term "church" since it has so many connotations, depending on context and the person using it. I'm not trying to be nit-picky, but given that words have meaning...contrary to modern culture's practices...I differentiate (C)hurch from (c)hurch.

A (c)hurch can be filled with pagans, which many are, and I think you hit upon an excellent point. Liberal theology breeds a population who THINK they know the real Christ, when in fact they don't. Now, someone out there is bound to take exception to that, so please let me eSplain; see what visiting California did to me...

A singular individual who would have all the personality and character traits that all those in different people groups believe about him, that would make such a person a schismatic, split personality, fractured freak. That is a lord I could not follow, and who doesn't exist, and is therefore incapable of saving anyone.

So, one either believes in the Jesus described in the Bible, who overturned tables contrary to the thinking of His own disciples, or they follow a Jesus of their own creation, who can't save a flea.

Excellent point you made about thinking they know the real Jesus, and yet don't, and therefore being some of the most difficult to convince of such.

As to tradition, that is one force that has more power that nothing else has in our human makeup possesses. Traditions that become inflexible paradigm in spite of obvious failures, that is the realm of tragedy and carnage. Have I hit upon the thrust of your point?

MM

 

[Musicmaster]

Better be carefull......there are eyes and ears everywhere.

DoD...always ask what something stands for...(D)ecidedly (o)ff (D)uty...retirement...at least, that's what I'm working toward. Retirees sit around playing checkers, commenting about what the stuffed suits are doing these days.

MM

 

[RDJ]

IF you are working to keep the Sabbath....then you are under the law my friend.

Christians are not required to observe a weekly sabbath. Christians are under “the law of the Christ,” which does not include keeping the Sabbath. ( Galatians 6:2; Colossians 2:16, 17) Why can we be certain of that? First, consider the origin of the Sabbath.

The Sabbath law applied only to the people subject to the rest of the Law given through Moses. (Deuteronomy 5:2, 3; Ezekiel 20:10-12) God never required other people to observe a sabbath rest. In addition, even the Jews were “released from the Law” of Moses, including the Ten Commandments, by the sacrifice of Jesus Christ. (Romans 7:6, 7; 10:4; Galatians 3:24, 25; Ephesians 2:15) Rather than adhere to the Law of Moses, Christians follow the superior law of love.—Romans 13:9, 10; Hebrews 8:13.

The law was given to the Jews not to the church. It is actually that simples

What you are saying and doing IMO is a personal conviction.

Hi Major, I believe I have considered the origins of the sabbath.As I said in my previous posts that the sabbath originated at the beginning in Genesis.The sabbath did not originate with Moses.

There are two sets of laws.One God wrote with his finger on tables of stone and one moses wrote with his hand in a book.One was kept in the ark of the covenant and one was kept outside of the ark.One is eternal while the other Christ nailed to the cross.

Colossians 2:14- Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

The above verse is referring to Moses law.Now in most cases the bible doesn't differentiate between which law its referring to,it just says law.We have to work it out ourselves by using the contexts of the entire chapter or chapters.

Now you have put forward alot of verses all of which are taken out of context.

Romans 3:31- Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

Now faith is not just a matter of believing something.For faith to be complete it has to have an action at the end of it.Faith starts with believing and ends with a work.Now granted we are saved by faith without the work ,but for that faith to be faith we have to put it into action.

Generally when the bible speaks about faith its speaking of it in its complete form as an action.

So to have faith in Jesus Christ is to walk in love with a heart that is toward him(the Word) and all his ways.To love our God and to love our brother as ourself which is the law of Christ we are then automatically keeping the ten commandments,thus establishing the law by faith.

John14:15- If ye love me, keep my commandments.

The big difference between the new covenant and the old is that our focus is on love while their focus was on the letter.God's ten commandments still stand today,not through the letter but through love(Jesus Christ).

The word was written to confound the wisdom of this world which is why we need the Holy Spirit to show us the true meaning behind the letter because only he knows the deep things of God.

 

[Lanolin]

I know exactly which post you are referring to (after searching), but don’t you think it is better to quote the person you are addressing instead of addressing posts and leaving others wondering who you are speaking to? Besides that, it doesn’t give the addressee a chance to respond.

Sometimes I forget
everyone posts so quickly here that I only do the reply thing when its several posts back. I would think it would be obvious it was the post above me. Who I have forgotten the name of now.

You know who you are.

 

[Lanolin]

In sermons, you know how the preacher is talking about someone and you think it's you.
When it's actually not, its someone else they didn't name.
Or maybe it's a general YOU as in EVERYONE in the congregation.

Sometimes, the preacher doesn't remember or even know people's names, so he or she just calls everyone 'YOU".

 

[Lanolin]

In every congregation I've ever been in, no preacher has ever called out anyone's name in the middle of the sermon, and addressed them, or said 'this sermon I'm going to be talking to xx sitting right there in the middle row, third left'
Plus I have never heard any preacher say 'any questions, raise your hands' and actually answer them. Mostly it's at least 15 solid minutes of them talking.

 

[Major]

Hi Major, I believe I have considered the origins of the sabbath.As I said in my previous posts that the sabbath originated at the beginning in Genesis.The sabbath did not originate with Moses.

There are two sets of laws.One God wrote with his finger on tables of stone and one moses wrote with his hand in a book.One was kept in the ark of the covenant and one was kept outside of the ark.One is eternal while the other Christ nailed to the cross.

Colossians 2:14- Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

The above verse is referring to Moses law.Now in most cases the bible doesn't differentiate between which law its referring to,it just says law.We have to work it out ourselves by using the contexts of the entire chapter or chapters.

Now you have put forward alot of verses all of which are taken out of context.

Romans 3:31- Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

Now faith is not just a matter of believing something.For faith to be complete it has to have an action at the end of it.Faith starts with believing and ends with a work.Now granted we are saved by faith without the work ,but for that faith to be faith we have to put it into action.

Generally when the bible speaks about faith its speaking of it in its complete form as an action.

So to have faith in Jesus Christ is to walk in love with a heart that is toward him(the Word) and all his ways.To love our God and to love our brother as ourself which is the law of Christ we are then automatically keeping the ten commandments,thus establishing the law by faith.

John14:15- If ye love me, keep my commandments.

The big difference between the new covenant and the old is that our focus is on love while their focus was on the letter.God's ten commandments still stand today,not through the letter but through love(Jesus Christ).

The word was written to confound the wisdom of this world which is why we need the Holy Spirit to show us the true meaning behind the letter because only he knows the deep things of God.

I understand your motivation. But the bottom-line is not actually what you are saying. It seems to me that you are promoting the idea that we as Christians are to keep the law of God because we are saved. If you are not, You certainly seem to be advocating the 7th Day Adventist program.

1st of all, I do not agree with your idea that what I posted was out of context. You may not have liked it because it was not supporting your opinions but it was certainly not out of context.

Now lets consider "context" as you said..............
"As I said in my previous posts that the sabbath originated at the beginning in Genesis. The sabbath did not originate with Moses."

Now contextually, if that was true then why is there NO record of the word SABBATH found in the book of Genesis??????

Again, you are saying that the problem stems from "Context". Contextually and Biblically, the word "Sabbath" is never found in the book of Genesis. The first case of Sabbath keeping was in Exodus 16 at Mt. Sinai. It is there that Jehovah gave Moses the "Ten Commandments", for the first time in world history. If the Ten commandments did not exist before Moses, then neither did the 4th commandment unless we find some command or example before Moses.

However, "Contextually" there is no record that Adam never kept the Sabbath, nor did Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph or anyone in while in Egyptian bondage. That right there should be a cause for concern for anyone who is insisting that we "must" keep the Sabbath.

The 10 commandments or Sabbath law did not exist before Moses.

As for words written on stones...The very first thing written on the stones tells us this!
Obviously then, this law was something new.

Deut 5:6........
'I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery. You shall have no other gods before Me."

Sabbath was not sanctified until after God rested: Gen 2:2; Ex 20:11.

First God rested, then AFTER HE RESTED then He sanctified it. This proves that the Sabbath was not part of God's eternal law in heaven prior to creation! The Bible no where says WHEN he sanctified it, just that it was after God rested.

Even if God did sanctify the Sabbath day in Eden, God still did not reveal the Sabbath in Eden because there is absolutely no evidence that anyone kept the Sabbath prior to Ex 16.

Then you stated................
"Faith starts with believing and ends with a work.Now granted we are saved by faith without the work ,but for that faith to be faith we have to put it into action. Generally when the bible speaks about faith its speaking of it in its complete form as an action."

That is simply not true. That may be your opinion but it is not Biblical.

Hebrews 11:1 says that...........
"Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see."

There is NO presupposition or additions to that verse. There is NOTHING about ending in a work!

Ephesians 2:8-9 is one of the clearest Scriptures in all of the Bible.........
"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast."

Should a man do good works when he is saved. YES! Works are a by-product of salvation and are not a vehicle or an addition to salvation.