Order of Events in the Gathering?

[Major]

Major, that was totally tongue-in-cheek about that hundred thingy. I went that direction because of the institutional types who've told me that home fellowships aren't legitimately "church" since we are so few in number and don't have a hired, degreed pastor, board of deacons, elected elders, house keeping crew, chandeliers, parking lots, manicured lawns (although some homes do), stained glass windows, steeples...(yawn) on and on the list could go. They think we sit around and socialize rather than to have a stringent, looking at the backs of other's heads, orchestrated, religious service with the majority being nothing more than an audience they hope are absorbing something of value, but don't ever stop to check...

Sorry. I sometimes throw in the elephants in the room that most ignore for the sake of feeling good about what they think is biblical, when in fact it isn't. I'm not saying it's anti-biblical apart from the one main aspect I've been discussing, which is the lack of effective discipleship.

So, don't worry (snicker, snicker), I won't pull a Greek word out of the hat on this topic since it was totally an ironic absurdity...hmm, that's a double whammy...

So, in response to your question, putting together the two expressions "institutional model" and "church" with a little "c", that's a hard one for me. I'd have to understand your definition of the term "church" since it has so many connotations, depending on context and the person using it. I'm not trying to be nit-picky, but given that words have meaning...contrary to modern culture's practices...I differentiate (C)hurch from (c)hurch.

A (c)hurch can be filled with pagans, which many are, and I think you hit upon an excellent point. Liberal theology breeds a population who THINK they know the real Christ, when in fact they don't. Now, someone out there is bound to take exception to that, so please let me eSplain; see what visiting California did to me...

A singular individual who would have all the personality and character traits that all those in different people groups believe about him, that would make such a person a schismatic, split personality, fractured freak. That is a lord I could not follow, and who doesn't exist, and is therefore incapable of saving anyone.

So, one either believes in the Jesus described in the Bible, who overturned tables contrary to the thinking of His own disciples, or they follow a Jesus of their own creation, who can't save a flea.

Excellent point you made about thinking they know the real Jesus, and yet don't, and therefore being some of the most difficult to convince of such.

As to tradition, that is one force that has more power that nothing else has in our human makeup possesses. Traditions that become inflexible paradigm in spite of obvious failures, that is the realm of tragedy and carnage. Have I hit upon the thrust of your point?

MM

Thanks brother. No worries.

I agree with the pagans in the church. I am amazed at those people who attend church and refuse to accept the Bible and instead accept their political positions as truth.

Every January we do a sermon on abortion as the SBC has asked all of its church's to focus on it in that month. The last presidential election I made the contrast to ALL elected officials who we vote into office by reading Proverbs 24:11-12..................
" If thou forbear to deliver them that are drawn unto death, and those that are ready to be slain;
If thou sayest, Behold, we knew it not; doth not he that pondereth the heart consider it? and he that keepeth thy soul, doth not he know it? and shall not he render to every man according to his works?"

What does that mean I asked??? I asked everyone......
Do you read that and allow your mind and pollical position to convince YOU that it does not apply top you today?????

Or do you read and allow the Holy Spirit to speak to your heart and convict you that when you vote for a person who tells you that they are in favor of killing un-born children that "you" are guilty of the same thing that they are.......Murder.

Of course I had a letter come that told me this particular couple would not longer be able to attend our church. My letter back to them was.....
"God bless you and thank you for your attendance here and I hope that you will be able to find a church that is liberal in its theology and does not preach the Word of God".

What that says is that when anyone allows a political teaching to be more important that the Word of God.....they are "Pagan".

 

[Musicmaster]

Hi Major, I believe I have considered the origins of the sabbath.As I said in my previous posts that the sabbath originated at the beginning in Genesis.The sabbath did not originate with Moses.

There are two sets of laws.One God wrote with his finger on tables of stone and one moses wrote with his hand in a book.One was kept in the ark of the covenant and one was kept outside of the ark.One is eternal while the other Christ nailed to the cross.

Colossians 2:14- Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

The above verse is referring to Moses law.Now in most cases the bible doesn't differentiate between which law its referring to,it just says law.We have to work it out ourselves by using the contexts of the entire chapter or chapters.

Now you have put forward alot of verses all of which are taken out of context.

Romans 3:31- Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

Now faith is not just a matter of believing something.For faith to be complete it has to have an action at the end of it.Faith starts with believing and ends with a work.Now granted we are saved by faith without the work ,but for that faith to be faith we have to put it into action.

Generally when the bible speaks about faith its speaking of it in its complete form as an action.

So to have faith in Jesus Christ is to walk in love with a heart that is toward him(the Word) and all his ways.To love our God and to love our brother as ourself which is the law of Christ we are then automatically keeping the ten commandments,thus establishing the law by faith.

John14:15- If ye love me, keep my commandments.

The big difference between the new covenant and the old is that our focus is on love while their focus was on the letter.God's ten commandments still stand today,not through the letter but through love(Jesus Christ).

The word was written to confound the wisdom of this world which is why we need the Holy Spirit to show us the true meaning behind the letter because only he knows the deep things of God.

Mark 2:27-28

27 And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath: 28 Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.

What's written is that the sabbath was made for us, not as an ordinance of any kind that established it as a command, whether one is walking in faith or not. Words have meaning. The context is in relation to the disciples picking grain to eat while walking through a field. Jesus also brought up David eating the bread that was forbidden to the people since it was only for the priests in the temple. So, what does that say to the reader, and His hearers?

What I'd say it DOESN'T show to us is a command for sabbath observance. Because the sabbath was made FOR man, he can hustle and bustle every day he calls the "sabbath" (on Sunday) to get his family off to church. That's a lot of work. I should know. Done it many times. That too was a violation of the sabbath ordinances in the Jewish community.

So, what do you suppose the meaning is in the words of Jesus quoted above? Let's dispense with all the other iterations of faith and such, and focus strictly on the text itself, zooming into ONLY the words of Jesus in that moment...if you would be willing to entertain the question. The noise only distracts. What did Jesus actually say?

Thanks

MM

 

[Musicmaster]

Thanks brother. No worries.

I agree with the pagans in the church. I am amazed at those people who attend church and refuse to accept the Bible and instead accept their political positions as truth.

Every January we do a sermon on abortion as the SBC has asked all of its church's to focus on it in that month. The last presidential election I made the contrast to ALL elected officials who we vote into office by reading Proverbs 24:11-12..................
" If thou forbear to deliver them that are drawn unto death, and those that are ready to be slain;
If thou sayest, Behold, we knew it not; doth not he that pondereth the heart consider it? and he that keepeth thy soul, doth not he know it? and shall not he render to every man according to his works?"

What does that mean I asked??? I asked everyone......
Do you read that and allow your mind and pollical position to convince YOU that it does not apply top you today?????

Or do you read and allow the Holy Spirit to speak to your heart and convict you that when you vote for a person who tells you that they are in favor of killing un-born children that "you" are guilty of the same thing that they are.......Murder.

Of course I had a letter come that told me this particular couple would not longer be able to attend our church. My letter back to them was.....
"God bless you and thank you for your attendance here and I hope that you will be able to find a church that is liberal in its theology and does not preach the Word of God".

What that says is that when anyone allows a political teaching to be more important that the Word of God.....they are "Pagan".

I've often wondered to myself how I could reach the liberal, pagan "christians" in my neighborhood. There's one couple down the street whose fence is painted with all kinds of references to Jesus and prayer and faith, and yet had a "Biden - Camela" placard in their front yard before and during the elections. There's another home with a couple of what looks like idols of some woman standing inside a bath tub jammed partially into the ground. Is that some sort of lucky charm or something; allegedly to protect their home? I don't get it. I'm hoping that if a tornado zings through the neighborhood, that one of those idols doesn't fly through the front wall of our house and kill me. (shrug) But, if it happens, it happens...only in accordance with the will and allowance of the Lord.

MM

 

[crossnote]

I've often wondered to myself how I could reach the liberal, pagan "christians" in my neighborhood. There's one couple down the street whose fence is painted with all kinds of references to Jesus and prayer and faith, and yet had a "Biden - Camela" placard in their front yard before and during the elections.

I too am pretty stupefied by these types. I can only think that they are sort of religious types devoid of the Spirit. If they had the Spirit, their desires would be in accord with God's Spirit, which would not be for a pro abortion candidate. I suppose is about the best weapon in such cases.

 

[RDJ]

The Lord's Day in Christianity is generally Sunday, the principal day of communal worship. It is observed by most Christians as the weekly memorial of the resurrection of Jesus Christ, who is said in the canonical Gospels to have been witnessed alive from the dead early on the first day of the week.

The "Day of the Lord" is a Day of Calamity. The day of the Lord means destruction of the godless. With metaphor the prophets excel in describing the calamitous aspect of day of the Lord. Amos speaks of it as a day of darkness ( 5:18 ).

"Traditions" is when the ideas of men replace the Word of God. Kind of like, we need to observe the Sabbath if we are a Christian.

The Lord's Day in Christianity is generally Sunday, the principal day of communal worship. It is observed by most Christians as the weekly memorial of the resurrection of Jesus Christ, who is said in the canonical Gospels to have been witnessed alive from the dead early on the first day of the week.

The "Day of the Lord" is a Day of Calamity. The day of the Lord means destruction of the godless. With metaphor the prophets excel in describing the calamitous aspect of day of the Lord. Amos speaks of it as a day of darkness ( 5:18 ).

"Traditions" is when the ideas of men replace the Word of God. Kind of like, we need to observe the Sabbath if we are i

Mark 2:27-28

27 And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath: 28 Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.

What's written is that the sabbath was made for us, not as an ordinance of any kind that established it as a command, whether one is walking in faith or not. Words have meaning. The context is in relation to the disciples picking grain to eat while walking through a field. Jesus also brought up David eating the bread that was forbidden to the people since it was only for the priests in the temple. So, what does that say to the reader, and His hearers?

What I'd say it DOESN'T show to us is a command for sabbath observance. Because the sabbath was made FOR man, he can hustle and bustle every day he calls the "sabbath" (on Sunday) to get his family off to church. That's a lot of work. I should know. Done it many times. That too was a violation of the sabbath ordinances in the Jewish community.

So, what do you suppose the meaning is in the words of Jesus quoted above? Let's dispense with all the other iterations of faith and such, and focus strictly on the text itself, zooming into ONLY the words of Jesus in that moment...if you would be willing to entertain the question. The noise only distracts. What did Jesus actually say?

Thanks

MM

Thank you for bringing calm to a heated conversation.

Ok ,so this is what Jesus was saying.Bear with me.

Analogy- Lets say I gave you a bed,and I said that the bed is made for you..not you for the bed.Well ofcourse the bed was made to be slept on,for relaxation,for comfort,for rest..Ofcourse you were not made for the bed.How silly would it be for you to have a bed on top of your back all night,what a burden to carry.

The sabbath was made for man..
Now ofcourse the sabbath was made for man.To rest from the burdens of the week gone by,to rest from our daily work,to lay aside the stress of life and to have a day where God gets all the attention,a time to have fellowship and to refuel with His Word.A day to do the Lord's work and not ours.

and not man for the sabbath
Now instead of us laying aside our burdens on the sabbath,the sabbath has now layed its burden upon us.Through our misunderstanding we have created a bunch of do's and don'ts (laws) for the sabbath and so creating a burden we cannot bear.And so instead of us laying our burden on the sabbath the sabbath has now laying its burden upon us.We are now serving the sabbath instead of the sabbath serving us,which is what it was created for.Man was not made for the sabbath to serve it,the sabbath was made for man to serve us.

Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath..
Jesus clearly was not doing away with the sabbath..He was establishing a new way of keeping it.

Matthew 12:11- And he said unto them, What man shall there be among you, that shall have one sheep, and if it fall into a pit on the sabbath day, will he not lay hold on it, and lift it out? How much then is a man better than a sheep? Wherefore it is lawful to do well on the sabbath days.

Jesus is literally promoting the keeping of the sabbath but without the laws that jewish leaders had put in place and so putting a burden on the people.

Jesus was trying to open their eyes about the true meaning of the sabbath.

 

[bobinfaith]

Interesting post, RDJ;

About 9 years ago after my home church met in the mornings I served a second church in the evenings, and another church 2 years ago, also in the evenings, while both churches were in between hiring a permanent pastor.

It reminded me how nice the evening services were because when I got home there was a spirit of relaxation, peace and calm before my wife and I got a good night's sleep.

Thank you for sharing, RDJ.

God bless you, and your family.

I think that is called.......exhaustion!

Hello Major;

Yes, giving my all in all to my home church and then getting refreshed for the second is exhausting but rewarding. These two churches started at 6pm and did all the preparations. All I had to do was greet and preach. Afterwards they would have an evening potluck so I enjoyed the fellowship.

Members of these church members that I got to know, asked me questions about the sermon, Scripture, while others didn't agree with me. Others did an altar call, got saved and baptized. Some went on to grow and are still serving today. Others left the church for various reasons. This went on till both churches were blessed with a new pastor.

Major, we have been constructive in this topic but I'd like to take this discussion in a different direction. With your many years pastoring and leading the worship service, how do you feel about the order of events that were spiritually filled in the gatherings of your church, and what didn't flow so well?

Anyone else, please jump in except for Musicmaster. He was out last week and needs to catch up with all the posts. lol!

God bless you all and your families.

 

[RDJ]

I understand your motivation. But the bottom-line is not actually what you are saying. It seems to me that you are promoting the idea that we as Christians are to keep the law of God because we are saved. If you are not, You certainly seem to be advocating the 7th Day Adventist program.

1st of all, I do not agree with your idea that what I posted was out of context. You may not have liked it because it was not supporting your opinions but it was certainly not out of context.

Now lets consider "context" as you said..............
"As I said in my previous posts that the sabbath originated at the beginning in Genesis. The sabbath did not originate with Moses."

Now contextually, if that was true then why is there NO record of the word SABBATH found in the book of Genesis??????

Again, you are saying that the problem stems from "Context". Contextually and Biblically, the word "Sabbath" is never found in the book of Genesis. The first case of Sabbath keeping was in Exodus 16 at Mt. Sinai. It is there that Jehovah gave Moses the "Ten Commandments", for the first time in world history. If the Ten commandments did not exist before Moses, then neither did the 4th commandment unless we find some command or example before Moses.

However, "Contextually" there is no record that Adam never kept the Sabbath, nor did Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph or anyone in while in Egyptian bondage. That right there should be a cause for concern for anyone who is insisting that we "must" keep the Sabbath.

The 10 commandments or Sabbath law did not exist before Moses.

As for words written on stones...The very first thing written on the stones tells us this!
Obviously then, this law was something new.

Deut 5:6........
'I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery. You shall have no other gods before Me."

Sabbath was not sanctified until after God rested: Gen 2:2; Ex 20:11.

First God rested, then AFTER HE RESTED then He sanctified it. This proves that the Sabbath was not part of God's eternal law in heaven prior to creation! The Bible no where says WHEN he sanctified it, just that it was after God rested.

Even if God did sanctify the Sabbath day in Eden, God still did not reveal the Sabbath in Eden because there is absolutely no evidence that anyone kept the Sabbath prior to Ex 16.

Then you stated................
"Faith starts with believing and ends with a work.Now granted we are saved by faith without the work ,but for that faith to be faith we have to put it into action. Generally when the bible speaks about faith its speaking of it in its complete form as an action."

That is simply not true. That may be your opinion but it is not Biblical.

Hebrews 11:1 says that...........
"Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see."

There is NO presupposition or additions to that verse. There is NOTHING about ending in a work!

Ephesians 2:8-9 is one of the clearest Scriptures in all of the Bible.........
"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast."

Should a man do good works when he is saved. YES! Works are a by-product of salvation and are not a vehicle or an addition to salvation.

I don't think it matters whether the word sabbath was used or not..The fact is that the sabbath is a day of rest which God instituted at creation by resting and setting the example..because he rested on that day he blessed it and made it holy..On the 6th day God created man,and he gave man dominion over all the earth.He did not give us dominion over the 7th day.

That blessing which he blessed the 7th day with still stands today.As sure as the sky is blue and the grass green His blessing still stands and to say otherwise is blasphemous.

GENISIS 26:4 - And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

God didn't write his laws before Moses but he certainly spoke them to whom he saw fit.Did Abraham ,Noah etc know about the sabbath?my guess is they did.

 

[crossnote]

Jesus clearly was not doing away with the sabbath..He was establishing a new way of keeping it.

This word 'keeping it' seems to be the rub, unless you mean by 'keeping it', we are to find our Sabbath (rest) in His atoning work,

 

[Major]

I don't think it matters whether the word sabbath was used or not..The fact is that the sabbath is a day of rest which God instituted at creation by resting and setting the example..because he rested on that day he blessed it and made it holy..On the 6th day God created man,and he gave man dominion over all the earth.He did not give us dominion over the 7th day.

That blessing which he blessed the 7th day with still stands today.As sure as the sky is blue and the grass green His blessing still stands and to say otherwise is blasphemous.

GENISIS 26:4 - And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

God didn't write his laws before Moses but he certainly spoke them to whom he saw fit.Did Abraham ,Noah etc know about the sabbath?my guess is they did.

It must matter to you brother as it was you who said.........
"I believe I have considered the origins of the sabbath. As I said in my previous posts that the sabbath originated at the beginning in Genesis. The sabbath did not originate with Moses."

So YES, the actuall word makes all the difference or we would not be having this discussion at all. "You" used the word so it must mean something to YOU.

If not why not use the word' Rest"????

If Adam, and Noah and Abraham and Isaac knew about the Sabbath, why do you think that there is NO record of that any where in the Scripture?????

If it was as important as you are trying to make it, don't you think that God would have had someone honor it or mention it or do it????

Now you said the Scripture I posted was out of context. Allow me to ask you what Genesis 26:4 has to do with the Sabbath since there is NO record of the Sabbath being in effect when Abraham lived. How could Abraham obey a law that was not in exitance????? Is that proper context"

 

[Major]

Hello Major;

Yes, giving my all in all to my home church and then getting refreshed for the second is exhausting but rewarding. These two churches started at 6pm and did all the preparations. All I had to do was greet and preach. Afterwards they would have an evening potluck so I enjoyed the fellowship.

Members of these church members that I got to know, asked me questions about the sermon, Scripture, while others didn't agree with me. Others did an altar call, got saved and baptized. Some went on to grow and are still serving today. Others left the church for various reasons. This went on till both churches were blessed with a new pastor.

Major, we have been constructive in this topic but I'd like to take this discussion in a different direction. With your many years pastoring and leading the worship service, how do you feel about the order of events that were spiritually filled in the gatherings of your church, and what didn't flow so well?

Anyone else, please jump in except for Musicmaster. He was out last week and needs to catch up with all the posts. lol!

God bless you all and your families.

The 1st thing I would stop would be testimony time. That turns out to be nothing but......My story is better than your story.

Then a church that does not have a music ministry is in trouble.

We have stayed with the concept of a choir, and congregational singing lead by the minister of music instead of a band of musicians. That becomes a staged presentation program instead of a gatherings of worshippers.

Then because we have a weekly bulletin printed and given out, there is no need to have anyone stand up and read the announcements to the congregation.

Many years ago,,,,to get the deacons involved, I had them rotate the reading of the Scriptures of the sermon text and encouraged them to make comments as they did. They all have caught on to it and look forward to their turn.

I always finish the sermon in 30 minutes. We work to have all the singing and prayers done in 30 minutes so that we are finished at noon. When we have a baptism or Communion, the time may go a little longer but only by 10 minutes or so.

Also, when the invitation is given it is always the same song, "Just as I am". That way there is no looking for a song book, or turning pages. We do not have long invitations. If there is no one coming it is closed after 1 or 2 verses.

I dont know if that is what you are asking and if not......let me know.

 

[Major]

Thank you for bringing calm to a heated conversation.

Ok ,so this is what Jesus was saying.Bear with me.

Analogy- Lets say I gave you a bed,and I said that the bed is made for you..not you for the bed.Well ofcourse the bed was made to be slept on,for relaxation,for comfort,for rest..Ofcourse you were not made for the bed.How silly would it be for you to have a bed on top of your back all night,what a burden to carry.

The sabbath was made for man..
Now ofcourse the sabbath was made for man.To rest from the burdens of the week gone by,to rest from our daily work,to lay aside the stress of life and to have a day where God gets all the attention,a time to have fellowship and to refuel with His Word.A day to do the Lord's work and not ours.

and not man for the sabbath
Now instead of us laying aside our burdens on the sabbath,the sabbath has now layed its burden upon us.Through our misunderstanding we have created a bunch of do's and don'ts (laws) for the sabbath and so creating a burden we cannot bear.And so instead of us laying our burden on the sabbath the sabbath has now laying its burden upon us.We are now serving the sabbath instead of the sabbath serving us,which is what it was created for.Man was not made for the sabbath to serve it,the sabbath was made for man to serve us.

Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath..
Jesus clearly was not doing away with the sabbath..He was establishing a new way of keeping it.

Matthew 12:11- And he said unto them, What man shall there be among you, that shall have one sheep, and if it fall into a pit on the sabbath day, will he not lay hold on it, and lift it out? How much then is a man better than a sheep? Wherefore it is lawful to do well on the sabbath days.

Jesus is literally promoting the keeping of the sabbath but without the laws that jewish leaders had put in place and so putting a burden on the people.

Jesus was trying to open their eyes about the true meaning of the sabbath.

Well my friend.....IF you gave me a bed.....there is nothing that says I have to sleep in that bed. I could take a bath in it or I could eat lunch it it. I could stand on it and water the plants out of the window.

I agree that the Sabbath was given to men........JEWS!

The word Sabbath, meaning rest, became one of the Ten Commandments given to the Jews in the wilderness.
Ex. 20:8-10......
"Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor, and do all your work, but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God."

The Jews were allowed to do no work on this day, marked as Friday evening until Saturday evening on the Jewish calendar.

The earliest Christians were Jews and kept the Law, including the Sabbath. As Christianity spread to non-Jews (Gentiles), questions concerning the keeping of the Law and the Sabbath had to be addressed.

Paul wrote to the Romans in 14:5-6..........
"One person esteems one day as better than another, while another esteems all days alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. The one who observes the day, observes it in honor of the Lord".

In Col. 2:16 he added,
"Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath."

I know that you feel the need to honor the Sabbath and IMHO that is probably because you are a 7th Day Advantist.

But the Bible truth is that The Saturday Sabbath was not a requirement for Christians. There was nothing wrong with keeping the Sabbath, but it was not required for Christians.

 

[crossnote]

The 1st thing I would stop would be testimony time. That turns out to be nothing but......My story is better than your story.

I understand your sentiment and concern but am not so sure Scripture agrees...

Revelation 12:11 (NASB) "And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their testimony, and they did not love their life even when faced with death.

 

[Musicmaster]

Thank you for bringing calm to a heated conversation.

Ok ,so this is what Jesus was saying.Bear with me.

Analogy- Lets say I gave you a bed,and I said that the bed is made for you..not you for the bed.Well ofcourse the bed was made to be slept on,for relaxation,for comfort,for rest..Ofcourse you were not made for the bed.How silly would it be for you to have a bed on top of your back all night,what a burden to carry.

The sabbath was made for man..
Now ofcourse the sabbath was made for man.To rest from the burdens of the week gone by,to rest from our daily work,to lay aside the stress of life and to have a day where God gets all the attention,a time to have fellowship and to refuel with His Word.A day to do the Lord's work and not ours.

and not man for the sabbath
Now instead of us laying aside our burdens on the sabbath,the sabbath has now layed its burden upon us.Through our misunderstanding we have created a bunch of do's and don'ts (laws) for the sabbath and so creating a burden we cannot bear.And so instead of us laying our burden on the sabbath the sabbath has now laying its burden upon us.We are now serving the sabbath instead of the sabbath serving us,which is what it was created for.Man was not made for the sabbath to serve it,the sabbath was made for man to serve us.

Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath..
Jesus clearly was not doing away with the sabbath..He was establishing a new way of keeping it.

Matthew 12:11- And he said unto them, What man shall there be among you, that shall have one sheep, and if it fall into a pit on the sabbath day, will he not lay hold on it, and lift it out? How much then is a man better than a sheep? Wherefore it is lawful to do well on the sabbath days.

Jesus is literally promoting the keeping of the sabbath but without the laws that jewish leaders had put in place and so putting a burden on the people.

Jesus was trying to open their eyes about the true meaning of the sabbath.

Ok, you made an interesting analogy. Let's talk about that bed that was made for me. If I choose to sleep on the floor, what have I violated since it was made for me, and without command for requirement? Maybe I like adventure sleeping on the couch, or between two chairs on either side of the ironing board (remember Opie), or the bed just isn't what I choose. If it's made for me, then it's my decision rather than a command.

Is that reasonable?

MM

 

[crossnote]

Ok, you made an interesting analogy. Let's talk about that bed that was made for me. If I choose to sleep on the floor, what have I violated since it was made for me, and without command for requirement? Maybe I like adventure sleeping on the couch, or between two chairs on either side of the ironing board (remember Opie), or the bed just isn't what I choose. If it's made for me, then it's my decision rather than a command.

Or the has since acquired bed bugs.

Never-mind .

 

[RDJ]

Well my friend.....IF you gave me a bed.....there is nothing that says I have to sleep in that bed. I could take a bath in it or I could eat lunch it it. I could stand on it and water the plants out of the window.

I agree that the Sabbath was given to men........JEWS!

The word Sabbath, meaning rest, became one of the Ten Commandments given to the Jews in the wilderness.
Ex. 20:8-10......
"Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor, and do all your work, but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God."

The Jews were allowed to do no work on this day, marked as Friday evening until Saturday evening on the Jewish calendar.

The earliest Christians were Jews and kept the Law, including the Sabbath. As Christianity spread to non-Jews (Gentiles), questions concerning the keeping of the Law and the Sabbath had to be addressed.

Paul wrote to the Romans in 14:5-6..........
"One person esteems one day as better than another, while another esteems all days alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. The one who observes the day, observes it in honor of the Lord".

In Col. 2:16 he added,
"Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath."

I know that you feel the need to honor the Sabbath and IMHO that is probably because you are a 7th Day Advantist.

But the Bible truth is that The Saturday Sabbath was not a requirement for Christians. There was nothing wrong with keeping the Sabbath, but it was not required for Christians.

Ok, you made an interesting analogy. Let's talk about that bed that was made for me. If I choose to sleep on the floor, what have I violated since it was made for me, and without command for requirement? Maybe I like adventure sleeping on the couch, or between two chairs on either side of the ironing board (remember Opie), or the bed just isn't what I choose. If it's made for me, then it's my decision rather than a command.

Is that reasonable?

MM

Yup thats fair.You can accept the bed and use it for its intended purpose or you can decide not to use it.God does not force anyone, his given us all a choice.

My point was to show you what Jesus meant when he made that statement which is what you had asked..Jesus was talking about the purpose for the sabbath wich is that it is for man.

I think I've explained my point in my many posts that the 7th day is inherently blessed as it was created that way.And that Jesus was not nullifying his own creation.

1Chronicles 17:27- Now therefore let it please thee to bless the house of thy servant, that it may be before thee for ever: for thou blessest, O Lord, and it shall be blessed for ever

Now you seem to be arguing whether there's a command to keep it.

If you are acknowledging that the 7th day is infact still a blessed day then we can move on to whether we should keep that blessing or not?

 

[crossnote]

Yup thats fair.You can accept the bed and use it for its intended purpose or you can decide not to use it.God does not force anyone, his given us all a choice.

My point was to show you what Jesus meant when he made that statement which is what you had asked..Jesus was talking about the purpose for the sabbath wich is that it is for man.

I think I've explained my point in my many posts that the 7th day is inherently blessed as it was created that way.And that Jesus was not nullifying his own creation.

1Chronicles 17:27- Now therefore let it please thee to bless the house of thy servant, that it may be before thee for ever: for thou blessest, O Lord, and it shall be blessed for ever

Now you seem to be arguing whether there's a command to keep it.

If you are acknowledging that the 7th day is infact still a blessed day then we can move on to whether we should keep that blessing or not?

What do you do when there’s a new heaven and new earth and time is no more? A 7th Day Sabbath will also be no more, rendering the Sabbath temporal.

 

[RDJ]

It must matter to you brother as it was you who said.........
"I believe I have considered the origins of the sabbath. As I said in my previous posts that the sabbath originated at the beginning in Genesis. The sabbath did not originate with Moses."

So YES, the actuall word makes all the difference or we would not be having this discussion at all. "You" used the word so it must mean something to YOU.

If not why not use the word' Rest"????

If Adam, and Noah and Abraham and Isaac knew about the Sabbath, why do you think that there is NO record of that any where in the Scripture?????

If it was as important as you are trying to make it, don't you think that God would have had someone honor it or mention it or do it????

Now you said the Scripture I posted was out of context. Allow me to ask you what Genesis 26:4 has to do with the Sabbath since there is NO record of the Sabbath being in effect when Abraham lived. How could Abraham obey a law that was not in exitance????? Is that proper context"

Well my friend.....IF you gave me a bed.....there is nothing that says I have to sleep in that bed. I could take a bath in it or I could eat lunch it it. I could stand on it and water the plants out of the window.

I agree that the Sabbath was given to men........JEWS!

The word Sabbath, meaning rest, became one of the Ten Commandments given to the Jews in the wilderness.
Ex. 20:8-10......
"Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor, and do all your work, but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God."

The Jews were allowed to do no work on this day, marked as Friday evening until Saturday evening on the Jewish calendar.

The earliest Christians were Jews and kept the Law, including the Sabbath. As Christianity spread to non-Jews (Gentiles), questions concerning the keeping of the Law and the Sabbath had to be addressed.

Paul wrote to the Romans in 14:5-6..........
"One person esteems one day as better than another, while another esteems all days alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. The one who observes the day, observes it in honor of the Lord".

In Col. 2:16 he added,
"Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath."

I know that you feel the need to honor the Sabbath and IMHO that is probably because you are a 7th Day Advantist.

But the Bible truth is that The Saturday Sabbath was not a requirement for Christians. There was nothing wrong with keeping the Sabbath, but it was not required for Christians

Like you said.sabbath means rest..God rested the 7th day.The sabbath originates at creation because God rested at creation thus instituting a day of rest which would be the 7th day because thats the day he chose to rest on and to bless.I can use the word rest ,no problem its all the same.

Genisis 26:5- Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

My point with Genisis 26:5 is that there were laws for God's people before Moses.

Even Noah new about clean and unclean animals which is in the law of Moses.

Genisis 7:2- Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female: and of beasts that are not clean by two, the male and his female.

Does the evidence suggest that they knew about a day of rest on the 7th day or not.Its more probably that they did know.

God must have told Adam and Eve that there are seven days in a week.Or do you think they didn't know?and if they did know I think God would have mentioned what the 7th day is all about.

 

[RDJ]

What do you do when there’s a new heaven and new earth and time is no more? A 7th Day Sabbath will also be no more, rendering the Sabbath temporal.

Yup..lies ,murder and deceit are all temporal but that fact does not make void their existence.

 

[RDJ]

Well my friend.....IF you gave me a bed.....there is nothing that says I have to sleep in that bed. I could take a bath in it or I could eat lunch it it. I could stand on it and water the plants out of the window.

I agree that the Sabbath was given to men........JEWS!

The word Sabbath, meaning rest, became one of the Ten Commandments given to the Jews in the wilderness.
Ex. 20:8-10......
"Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor, and do all your work, but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God."

The Jews were allowed to do no work on this day, marked as Friday evening until Saturday evening on the Jewish calendar.

The earliest Christians were Jews and kept the Law, including the Sabbath. As Christianity spread to non-Jews (Gentiles), questions concerning the keeping of the Law and the Sabbath had to be addressed.

Paul wrote to the Romans in 14:5-6..........
"One person esteems one day as better than another, while another esteems all days alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. The one who observes the day, observes it in honor of the Lord".

In Col. 2:16 he added,
"Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath."

I know that you feel the need to honor the Sabbath and IMHO that is probably because you are a 7th Day Advantist.

But the Bible truth is that The Saturday Sabbath was not a requirement for Christians. There was nothing wrong with keeping the Sabbath, but it was not required for Christians.

Oh..and as I said before..im not 7th day Adventis or 7th day anything.

 

[crossnote]

Yup..lies ,murder and deceit are all temporal but that fact does not make void their existence.

And I’m glad there will be no lies, murder and deceit in the eternal.
I will give you this much though, the Sabbath was not due to the Fall whereas the others were.