Order of Events in the Gathering?

[Major]

The simple answer is yes. That day, the one within which He rested, was indeed hallowed, as is written.

I say that because, equally important is to look at what ISN'T said in that context. That blessing of that one day is not said to be in perpetuity.

Suppose, however, that the Lord had inspired Moses to write the Hebrew wording that indicated all the seventh days from then, onward, were hallowed, blessed, or whatever word one chooses, what would that mean? How do we derive such a meaning in the dull roar of the silence thereafter?

I would agree that it's beneficial for all of us to rest one day in seven. Yes. However, I can't find anywhere in scripture where there's a definition provided as to what it means for a day to have been hallowed in the creation week. The Lord governed the Jews, forcing them to rest one day in seven...considering how laborious life was back then compared to now. They didn't "go to church" who lived out in the outlying areas. They rested, pure and simple...until the religious leaders laid down hundreds of pages of constraining definitions, such as how many steps one could take in that day before it was considered "work," and that they were not allowed to lift any food to their mouths weighing more than a dried fig, ad absurdum, ad infinitum.

I hope that answers your question, and then some. This is cool stuff to bring forth for discussion. I like it. If I'm wrong, then some readjustments are in order in my tiny little cavern of a brain...

MM

No adjustments need MM. You are on solid ground!

I think you know that when we actually read the Scriptures in Genesis 2 on the day of REST we notice that the verse does not say a physical Sabbath-day rest was to be observed by human beings.

Genesis 2:2-3 contains no command for human beings to rest from their labor or to otherwise keep the seventh day as “holy time.” God is the one said to be “resting,” and by his act he creates something holy about the seventh day. But at this point in the story we haven’t been told what that is.

If Moses, who wrote Genesis wanted to make the point that God commanded the Sabbath to be a day of rest for humans since the creation, then he failed to support this idea in further chapters. He provided no evidence that any of the great patriarchs, Abraham, Noah, Issac, Seth, included, kept the seventh day as “holy time.” Neither did he make any comments to the effect that humanity was breaking the Sabbath-day rest and thereby sinning against God between Adam and Sinai. Not until the old covenant is instituted with a single nation—Israel—in Exodus 16 does the Sabbath rest become a command (and then only for Israel).

So then.....why the discussion????

The mixing of grace with works instead of Grace only to be saved.

Ephesians 2:8-9...........
" For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast."

Read full chapter

 

[Musicmaster]

Agreed. We can not and must not think that when anything found in the Bible does not agree with what we want...we then consider that as "petty".

Something I learned from a great Bible teacher a long time ago about debates such as this one is that.......
"people in general like what they know even if what they know is wrong because they live in a comfort zone mentally. So when exposed to something different from what they know, they reject it out of hand".

Yes indeedy. One is addressing a powerful force when it comes to human will. Of equal force in the thinking of many is the repeated errors, such as the many teachings about tithing requirements. That error has been around for so long, repeated so many times, that those who demand it ignore the truth, even when presented to them in love and consideration.

"Well "pastor" taught me this, so how could it be wrong...?"

or

"When I was pasting cotton on bunny tails in Sunday school class, teacher said this, so I believe it..."

The power of influences derived from word-of-mouth, especially from people we might tend to admire, can be overpowering to the non-critical thinker who rejects Paul's instruction to "Prove ALL things..."

MM

 

[Major]

Yes indeedy. One is addressing a powerful force when it comes to human will. Of equal force in the thinking of many is the repeated errors, such as the many teachings about tithing requirements. That error has been around for so long, repeated so many times, that those who demand it ignore the truth, even when presented to them in love and consideration.

"Well "pastor" taught me this, so how could it be wrong...?"

or

"When I was pasting cotton on bunny tails in Sunday school class, teacher said this, so I believe it..."

The power of influences derived from word-of-mouth, especially from people we might tend to admire, can be overpowering to the non-critical thinker who rejects Paul's instruction to "Prove ALL things..."

MM

Correct amondo! We missed your input and I am glad to see you back. I hope your trip was a good one!

If what you just said was not true.......then why do so many Christians accept the tradition of bunny rabbits, candy and chickens at Easter.

They have no clue and do it because mom and dad did it and I did with my children and mom and dad could not be wrong.

The very same thing applies to Santa!

Those things speak to the flesh of man and we love it!!!!!

 

[RDJ]

The simple answer is yes. That day, the one within which He rested, was indeed hallowed, as is written.

I say that because, equally important is to look at what ISN'T said in that context. That blessing of that one day is not said to be in perpetuity.

Suppose, however, that the Lord had inspired Moses to write the Hebrew wording that indicated all the seventh days from then, onward, were hallowed, blessed, or whatever word one chooses, what would that mean? How do we derive such a meaning in the dull roar of the silence thereafter?

I would agree that it's beneficial for all of us to rest one day in seven. Yes. However, I can't find anywhere in scripture where there's a definition provided as to what it means for a day to have been hallowed in the creation week. The Lord governed the Jews, forcing them to rest one day in seven...considering how laborious life was back then compared to now. They didn't "go to church" who lived out in the outlying areas. They rested, pure and simple...until the religious leaders laid down hundreds of pages of constraining definitions, such as how many steps one could take in that day before it was considered "work," and that they were not allowed to lift any food to their mouths weighing more than a dried fig, ad absurdum, ad infinitum.

I hope that answers your question, and then some. This is cool stuff to bring forth for discussion. I like it. If I'm wrong, then some readjustments are in order in my tiny little cavern of a brain...

MM

Haha .I've never heard that one before,that only that particular day God rested is blessed.ok hmmmmm.

Notice that the commandment reads "Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy."

That would suggest that the day itself is holy.We are just meant to keep it holy.Considering us mere humans could never actually make anything holy.

This is what I've been trying to say all along.The blessing and the holiness is part of the 7th day..they cannot be separated.God created 7 days which technically repeat themselves every week if that makes any sense..The 7th day coming up at the end of this week is the same 7th day God blessed and made holy at creation.Its just one big closed loop..I can only pray for your understanding on this.

My question still stands if you are open for re adjustments.

 

[Musicmaster]

Haha .I've never heard that one before,that only that particular day God rested is blessed.ok hmmmmm.

Notice that the commandment reads "Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy."

That would suggest that the day itself is holy.We are just meant to keep it holy.Considering us mere humans could never actually make anything holy.

This is what I've been trying to say all along.The blessing and the holiness is part of the 7th day..they cannot be separated.God created 7 days which technically repeat themselves every week if that makes any sense..The 7th day coming up at the end of this week is the same 7th day God blessed and made holy at creation.Its just one big closed loop..I can only pray for your understanding on this.

My question still stands if you are open for re adjustments.

Oh. But, NOW you're appealing to the Law. I thought you were addressing what is pre-Law, now you're jumping into this. Where do you stand...on which side of this?

Luke 16:16 The law and the prophets [were] until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.

As you can see, you're appealing to something that was UNTIL John the baptist.

1 Timothy 1:8-11

8 But we know that the law [is] good, if a man use it lawfully; 9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, 10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine; 11 According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust.

I'm not any of those things for whom the Law applies. Therefore, appeals to the Law is an appeal to what is not made for me. Dare I place myself under the Law, then I become guilty of ALL the Law.

Question is, have YOU placed yourself under the Law? If so, then why? The Law can't save you, me or anyone else, even though it is perfect and holy. If we dare speak of requirement, even for the sabbath, then we place ourselves back under the curse of the Law. Why would anyone knowingly do that to themselves? For what purpose? I hope you can appreciate my lack of understanding in this regard.

MM

 

[Musicmaster]

Correct amondo! We missed your input and I am glad to see you back. I hope your trip was a good one!

If what you just said was not true.......then why do so many Christians accept the tradition of bunny rabbits, candy and chickens at Easter.

They have no clue and do it because mom and dad did it and I did with my children and mom and dad could not be wrong.

The very same thing applies to Santa!

Those things speak to the flesh of man and we love it!!!!!

Major, I missed all of you too. It's good to be back.

MM

 

[RDJ]

Sorry, my point was that the blessing you are referring to belongs to the Old Creation, not the New. It is temporal and so…

Colossians 2:16-17 NASB
[16] Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day- [17] things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ.

Why this Sabbath push in the first place?

Hey..there is only one creation and thats in Genisis?

The contexts of colossians 2:16 is found in colossians 2:14.

2:14- Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

The "handwriting of ordinances" , referring to the hand of Moses.The ordinances are the laws which he wrote in the book of the law..Not to be confused with the ten commandments.

So when we get to verse 16 those things that we should not be judged to do are those contained in the book of the law.

Galatians 3:16- Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

The book of the law served to govern the people in various aspects including religious ceremonies, sacrifices etc..these thi ga are done away with in Christ.

 

[Musicmaster]

Hey..there is only one creation and thats in Genisis?

The contexts of colossians 2:16 is found in colossians 2:14.

2:14- Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

The "handwriting of ordinances" , referring to the hand of Moses.The ordinances are the laws which he wrote in the book of the law..Not to be confused with the ten commandments.

So when we get to verse 16 those things that we should not be judged to do are those contained in the book of the law.

Galatians 3:16- Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

The book of the law served to govern the people in various aspects including religious ceremonies, sacrifices etc..these thi ga are done away with in Christ.

Now it's even more confusing. Are you actually suggesting there's a separation between the ten commandments and the Law? The ten commandments were the precursor to the more extensive Law.

Please elaborate.

MM

 

[RDJ]

Oh. But, NOW you're appealing to the Law. I thought you were addressing what is pre-Law, now you're jumping into this. Where do you stand...on which side of this?

Luke 16:16 The law and the prophets [were] until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.

As you can see, you're appealing to something that was UNTIL John the baptist.

1 Timothy 1:8-11

8 But we know that the law [is] good, if a man use it lawfully; 9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, 10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine; 11 According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust.

I'm not any of those things for whom the Law applies. Therefore, appeals to the Law is an appeal to what is not made for me. Dare I place myself under the Law, then I become guilty of ALL the Law.

Question is, have YOU placed yourself under the Law? If so, then why? The Law can't save you, me or anyone else, even though it is perfect and holy. If we dare speak of requirement, even for the sabbath, then we place ourselves back under the curse of the Law. Why would anyone knowingly do that to themselves? For what purpose? I hope you can appreciate my lack of understanding in this regard.

MM

Im not talking about law .Im talking about creation,specifically the 7th day and whether or not its blessed to this day?

 

[crossnote]

Hey..there is only one creation and thats in Genisis?

Im not talking about law .Im talking about creation,specifically the 7th day and whether or not its blessed to this day?

Perhaps you need to expand your spiritual horizons...

Isaiah 65:17 (KJV) For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

Isaiah 66:22 (KJV) For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.

2 Peter 3:13 (KJV) Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

 

[RDJ]

Now it's even more confusing. Are you actually suggesting there's a separation between the ten commandments and the Law? The ten commandments were the precursor to the more extensive Law.

Please elaborate.

MM

Now it's even more confusing. Are you actually suggesting there's a separation between the ten commandments and the Law? The ten commandments were the precursor to the more extensive Law.

Please elaborate.

MM

Yes...the law can refer to either ten commandments or the book of the law/Moses law depending on contexts.

In Galatians 3:19 "Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions". The book of the law was added after the ten commandment because the people were transgressing the commandments.
In that book were ceremonial laws,a way for people to atone for the transgressions.Civil laws to govern them in their everday life etc etc.

But Christ nailed that book to the cross (col 2:14) as he is now our atonement.

 

[RDJ]

Perhaps you need to expand your spiritual horizons...

Isaiah 65:17 (KJV) For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

Isaiah 66:22 (KJV) For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.

2 Peter 3:13 (KJV) Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Yes brother..that new earth and new heaven with begin after Jesus comes back.This is the hope we have.

 

[Musicmaster]

Haha .I've never heard that one before,that only that particular day God rested is blessed.ok hmmmmm.

Notice that the commandment reads "Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy."

That would suggest that the day itself is holy.We are just meant to keep it holy.Considering us mere humans could never actually make anything holy.

This is what I've been trying to say all along.The blessing and the holiness is part of the 7th day..they cannot be separated.God created 7 days which technically repeat themselves every week if that makes any sense..The 7th day coming up at the end of this week is the same 7th day God blessed and made holy at creation.Its just one big closed loop..I can only pray for your understanding on this.

My question still stands if you are open for re adjustments.

RDJ, please see your own response above. That quotation is from Exodus 20:8.

So, let's look and see what the context actually says, and to whom it is addressed:

Exodus 20:1-2

1 And God spake all these words, saying, 2 I [am] the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.

He is not speaking to Gentiles here, but rather the Jews...the children of Israel.

Now, many choose to ignore this glaring fact, and they do so to their own detriment when it comes to the handling of scripture for what it says.

Now, please help me to understand how anyone can force us Gentiles into that context for meaning and application in the place of our righteousness that is imputed to us by Christ Jesus rather than obedience to the Law?

If you say to me that Exodus 20 is not a precursor to the Law, and therefore not an intimate part of the Law, then I would have to understand why? Exodus is couched in the period long after the creation week, so please enlighten me as to where all these bits and pieces of the tapestry are coming from. Perhaps I'm too ignorant to grasp what appears to defy the clear language of what I'm reading within the relevant passages. Maybe I'm wrong. Please convince me of your take on all this.

MM

 

[crossnote]

Yes...the law can refer to either ten commandments or the book of the law/Moses law depending on contexts.

In Galatians 3:19 "Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions". The book of the law was added after the ten commandment because the people were transgressing the commandments.
In that book were ceremonial laws,a way for people to atone for the transgressions.Civil laws to govern them in their everday life etc etc.

But Christ nailed that book to the cross (col 2:14) as he is now our atonement.

In Rom 7 where Paul deals with our death to the Law, he uses as an example, the 10th Commandment, "Thou shalt not covet" Rom 7.7, thus poking a hole in your theory that Col 2:14 only applies to the ceremonial law.

 

[Musicmaster]

In Rom 7 where Paul deals with our death to the Law, he uses as an example, the 10th Commandment, "Thou shalt not covet" Rom 7.7, thus poking a hole in your theory that Col 2:14 only applies to the ceremonial law.

Additionally, CN, the Law is a unified whole. Those divisions people create out of thin air for convenience, by their own authority, cannot be valid because the question could then be asked, "How does one divide what is holy and perfect?" All the Law is perfect and holy, and therefore indivisible by the power and authority of man...which is no power nor authority at all apart from what the Lord expressly grants to us.

MM

 

[RDJ]

Im not talking about law .Im talking about creation,specifically the 7th day and whether or not its blessed to this day?

RDJ, please see your own response above. That quotation is from Exodus 20:8.

So, let's look and see what the context actually says, and to whom it is addressed:

Exodus 20:1-2

1 And God spake all these words, saying, 2 I [am] the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.

He is not speaking to Gentiles here, but rather the Jews...the children of Israel.

Now, many choose to ignore this glaring fact, and they do so to their own detriment when it comes to the handling of scripture for what it says.

Now, please help me to understand how anyone can force us Gentiles into that context for meaning and application in the place of our righteousness that is imputed to us by Christ Jesus rather than obedience to the Law?

If you say to me that Exodus 20 is not a precursor to the Law, and therefore not an intimate part of the Law, then I would have to understand why? Exodus is couched in the period long after the creation week, so please enlighten me as to where all these bits and pieces of the tapestry are coming from. Perhaps I'm too ignorant to grasp what appears to defy the clear language of what I'm reading within the relevant passages. Maybe I'm wrong. Please convince me of your take on all this.

MM

In Exodus 20:8 I was focusing on that they were commanded to keep the 7th day holy.Specifically on the word keep.Which would mean that from creation to Exodus the 7th day was still holy because they were asked to keep it that way.
So my question is,if from creation to the time of Exodus the 7th day was holy.At what point in history did it cease to be holy.Did God remove the blessing from the day?

To your other points..

Are we not spiritual isrealites,did God not take us out of bondage through his son Jesus Christ?Are we not heirs of the promises?

Im not saved by obedience..Im saved by faith and faith alone..obedience is just an expression of my faith.

 

[bobinfaith]

The simple answer is yes. That day, the one within which He rested, was indeed hallowed, as is written.

I say that because, equally important is to look at what ISN'T said in that context. That blessing of that one day is not said to be in perpetuity.

Suppose, however, that the Lord had inspired Moses to write the Hebrew wording that indicated all the seventh days from then, onward, were hallowed, blessed, or whatever word one chooses, what would that mean? How do we derive such a meaning in the dull roar of the silence thereafter?

I would agree that it's beneficial for all of us to rest one day in seven. Yes. However, I can't find anywhere in scripture where there's a definition provided as to what it means for a day to have been hallowed in the creation week. The Lord governed the Jews, forcing them to rest one day in seven...considering how laborious life was back then compared to now. They didn't "go to church" who lived out in the outlying areas. They rested, pure and simple...until the religious leaders laid down hundreds of pages of constraining definitions, such as how many steps one could take in that day before it was considered "work," and that they were not allowed to lift any food to their mouths weighing more than a dried fig, ad absurdum, ad infinitum.

I hope that answers your question, and then some. This is cool stuff to bring forth for discussion. I like it. If I'm wrong, then some readjustments are in order in my tiny little cavern of a brain...

MM

Dear RDJ......we have been going in a circle from the very 1st time you brought this up.

It is clear that you have a "pet" theology of wanting to keep the Law or the Sabbath. Why be deceptive on it.

I know you are sincere but you said you follow the Bible and not tradition. But when shown to you that the Sabbath did not even come into existance until Ex. 16, you rejected that and stood on the tradition you are condemning.

For all who read our conversation allow me to say that most Bible scholars believe the reason Christians worship on Sunday is that it is the day Christ rose from the dead.

Others believe Christians may have begun Sunday worship in the first century to escape the persecution of Nero, a wicked Roman emperor who did all within his power to destroy Christianity. Knowing the Christians worshiped on the Sabbath made them easy to find. Nero would have them killed, and then burn their bodies in his courtyards at night for entertainment. It was a terrible time for Christians.

Others believe that Constantine, the first Christian Roman emperor, changed the day of rest to Sunday during the fourth century.
Apparently, he had forced the survivors of his conquests to join the Christian Church. In an attempt to appease these new converts, (and to avoid the appearance of showing favor to the Christians), the day of worship was changed to Sunday.

Still, others believe the day of worship was changed centuries later by the Catholic Church, just because they were in power and could do as that wanted.

Then along comes the Apostle Paul. The Apostle Paul was helping those under the Old Testament Law, make the transition to the New Testament. Other religions were also joining the new Christian Church at this time, and many of these had a favorite day of worship and worshipped false gods.

He wrote in Romans 14:5-6......
"One man esteems one day as better than another, while another man esteems all days alike [sacred]. Let everyone be fully convinced (satisfied) in his own mind. He who observes the day observes it in honor of the Lord".

Paul used the term, "with a good conscience.” The ultimate answer is not in which day, but in whom we worship. According to the teachings of the Apostle Paul, we are to consider every day to be a day of worship, with no one day being more important than another.

However, I believe scripture calls for God’s people to set aside one day of the week as a day of rest, and the day most Christians observe is Sunday because that is the day Jesus Christ rose from the dead.

Now so as to be clear, RDJ is correct is that the word "Sunday" is not mentioned in the Bible at all, but there are eight New Testament texts that mention the "first day."

However, to claim that as a doctrine and to reject the same fact that the word SABBATH is not seen in the Scriptures until Exodus 16 is circular reasoning!!!! That is like taking an apple from a basket with your left and and then putting it back with your right hand. It is either right for one or n=for none.

Acts 20:&.........
"On the first day of the week, when we were gathered together to break bread, Paul talked with them, intending to depart on the next day, and he prolonged his speech until midnight.

Now you all know the "rest of this story".

Does it matter if the church gathers to worship on Sabbath or Sunday !!! NOT ONE LITTLE BIT!

Hello Major and Musicmaster;

Well said. Your exegesis breaks down the explanation of the sabbath but there are areas that allowed me to learn even more.

 

[crossnote]

So my question is,if from creation to the time of Exodus the 7th day was holy.At what point in history did it cease to be holy.Did God remove the blessing from the day?

I don't see how it is a blessing, when breaking one point of the law brings a curse.

James 2:10 (KJV) For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

Galatians 3:10 (KJV) For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

 

[crossnote]

Hello Major and Musicmaster;

Well said. Your exegesis breaks down the explanation of the sabbath but there are areas that allowed me to learn even more.

Bob, I'm listening.

 

[bobinfaith]

Bob, I'm listening.

Hello crossnote;

Years ago I struggled with the pharisaic and legalistic teachings of the Sabbath. It is so that God commanded us to keep the Sabbath but more important, keep it Holy in Exodus 20:8-11 - KJV

The exegetical points shared in my previous post only confirms my desired obedience of the Sabbath. Between God and my family, I labor 6 days and keep the Sabbath to worship Him, reflect on all He has done, and then get refreshed for the next day.

I'm blessed by this command.