Context always matters..
Doing you know what dying to the law means?Does anybody here know?
Order of Events in the Gathering?
- Thread starter Musicmaster
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Doing you know what dying to the law means?Does anybody here know?
Is this Sunday School for little children?
It is presented in two ways…
1. Our being placed into Christ’s death/burial/resurrection.
2. Thus risen with Him, we are to live for Him in a new and living way.
Romans 6:2-4 NASB
[2] May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it? [3] Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? [4] Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.
Romans 7:4 NASB
[4] Therefore, my brethren, you also were made to die to the Law through the body of Christ, so that you might be joined to another, to Him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God.
Galatians 2:19-20 NASB
[19] For through the Law I died to the Law, so that I might live to God. [20] I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me.
AND HERE IS OUR REST…
Hebrews 10:19-22 NASB
[19] Therefore, brethren, since we have confidence to enter the holy place by the blood of Jesus, [20] by a new and living way which He inaugurated for us through the veil, that is, His flesh, [21] and since we have a great priest over the house of God, [22] let us draw near with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water.
I think i replied to the wrong post. Anyway this was for you.
Ok..so your position is that the holiness of the 7th day in creation week did not continue into the following 7th days thereafter?
If Im correct about your position,then, why did God command the Isrealites to keep the 7th day holy if the holiness did not continue to the time of the command.
God did not command them to make a holy day but to keep it holy..Implying that it is already holy .So Im assuming it would be holy from creation?
It was custom for Jesus to preach and teach in the synagogues on the sabbath days..He was doing his Father's work.If im teaching God's word at a gathering on the sabbath day I would consider myself to be doing the Lord's work,Labouring in the Lord.It is the Lord's day.
Jesus was not breaking his own laws..he was breaking the laws christian leaders made.
The priests did the same in old covenant and were found blamless..they were doing the Lords work.
Matthew 12:5- Or have ye not read in the law, how that on the sabbath days the priests in the temple profane the sabbath, and are blameless?
You are focused on the letter of the law and not the spirit of the law.
What is your definition of fulfill?
Wow,you seem hell bent on apposing me...we are heirs and co heirs with Christ.
Romans 8:16- The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
Galatians 3:29- And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
I am sorry you feel that way.
I was only attempting to show that that is a difference between the promises made to Abraham and those promises made to him and his followers do not apply to the Church today.
We can not quote a promise made to the Jews and apply to us today any more than we can take a Law given to them and apply it to us today.
Correct.
Because the law brings wrath. And where there is no law, there is no transgression. because the law brings wrath. And where there is no law there is no transgression. For the law always brings punishment on those who try to obey it.
The only way to avoid breaking the law is to have no law to break!
Actually I am reading the Scripture and I am focused on THEM and not what someone has told me.
Allow me to make what I am saying perfectly clear.
I have stated before and do so again that If God instituted the “Sabbath” before the “Fall of Man,” it seems strange that the fact is not recorded in Genesis, and that Adam was not told to observe it. Nowhere in the Book of Genesis do we read of Adam, or any of his descendants, or Noah, or Abraham observing the Sabbath.
The only hint we have of a “seven-fold” division of days is found in Gen. 7:4, 10, when seven days of grace were granted before the Flood came, and in Gen. 8:8-12, where a seven-day period elapsed between the sending forth of the dove.
As I have said........The first place we read of the Sabbath is in Ex. 16:23-26, in connection with the gathering of the manna --
"Six days you shall gather it, but on the seventh day, the Sabbath, there will be none."
Here we have the “SEVENTH” day designated as “THE SABBATH.” That the “Seventh Day” of the “Creative Week” was a type of the Sabbath is clear from Ex. 20:11.......
“For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.”
But we have no evidence that the Sabbath was commanded to be observed until after the Exodus, and the reason is clear. God’s “Rest Day” was broken by the “Fall of Man,” and there could be no “rest” until redemption was brought in, and this was typically brought in by the redemption of the Children of Israel from Egypt through the offering of the “Passover Lamb,” a type of Christ.
The purpose of their deliverance was that they might find rest in Canaan from the weary toil and slavery of Egypt. Deu. 5:15.
When a few weeks later the “Ten Commandments” were given on Mt. Sinai the Lord said to Israel in Ex. 20:8........
“Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy,”.
The Sabbath Day they were to remember was not the “Seventh Day” on which God rested, but the “Day” that God had appointed as the “Sabbath Day” at the time of the giving of the manna.
The command to observe the Sabbath was given to Israel EXCLUSIVELY. It was not given to the Gentiles. It was given to Israel as the “SIGN” of the “Mosaic Covenant.”
Ex. 31:13............
“But as for you, speak to the sons of Israel, saying, 'You shall surely observe My Sabbaths; for this is a sign between Me and you throughout your generations.”.
The Sabbath Day then belongs to the Jews alone and is not binding on the Gentiles (the world), or on the Church (Christians). Nowhere in the Bible do you find God finding fault with any nation or people, except the Jewish nation, for not observing the Sabbath. As a Jewish ordinance it has never been abrogated, changed, or transferred to any other day of the week, or to any other people.
It is now in abeyance as foretold in Hosea 2:11 it would be. It is to be resumed when the Jews are nationally restored to their own land. Isa. 66:23. Ezek. 44:24; 46:1-3.
Since all of this is the Bible truth, easily found and read....then the “Sabbath’ does not belong to the Church, and is not to be observed by Christians, for the “Sabbath Day” is a part of “THE LAW,” and Christians are nut under “LAW,” but under “GRACE.”
Rom 6:14. In his letter to the Galatian Christians Paul reproved them for going back to the “Law,” and declared that those who did so were “under the CURSE.”
Gal 3:10. ........
“But now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how is it that you turn back again to the weak and worthless elemental things, to which you desire to be enslaved all over again?
Gal. 4:9-11.......
You observe days [Sabbath and Feast Days] and months and seasons and years. I fear for you, that perhaps I have labored over you in vain.”
Col. 2:16.............
“Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day"..
If Christians are under obligation to keep the “Jewish Sabbath,” then they are under the Jewish “Ceremonial Law” and should observe all the ordinances and Feast Days of the Jewish Ritual.
As an institution of Judaism, the Sabbath, with all the “Feast Days” and other ritualistic ceremonies and offerings of Judaism, ceased to function with the close of the Jewish Dispensation. The JEWISH Sabbath was not changed to the CHRISTIAN Sabbath, any more than “Circumcision” was changed to “Baptism.” There is no such thing as the “CHRISTIAN Sabbath.” “Sabbath” has to do with LAW, and “Christian” with GRACE, and to join “LAW” and “GRACE” is to unite what God has forever separated.
After the Resurrection, Christ and His Disciples never met on the “Sabbath” but on the “FIRST DAY of the week.”
Now then.....to try and suggest that we as Christians should keep the Sabbath, or honor a day of rest as you put it is denomination theology and not Bible truth.
I am not opposing you in any way. You just asked and I gave you what I believe and posted the Scriptures that validate my understanding.
Brake one and you brake them all!!!!!!
Who are Abrahams followers? Every promise that was made to the jews apply to us..we are spiritual jews and the promises have spiritual implications.
You say The sabbath command is not referring to the 7th day of creation ? Thats a first.
The sabbath was not a sign of the Mosaic covenant as you mentioned..It was a sign between God and his people.
Ezekiel 20:12- Moreover also I gave them my sabbaths, to be a sign between me and them, that they might know that I am the Lord that sanctify them.
Isaiah 58:13- If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the Lord, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words: Then shalt thou delight thyself in the Lord; and I will cause thee to ride upon the high places of the earth, and feed thee with the heritage of Jacob thy father: for the mouth of the Lord hath spoken it.
What a beautiful few verses..Im grabbing these promises with both hands.
The sabbath is the same 7th day from creation.
Revelations 1:10- I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,
God The Father claims the 7th day sabbath as his own and Jesus claims to be Lord of the sabbath day.So when John says he was in the spirit on The Lords Day his referring to the 7th day.
There is zero evidence for sunday observance.
RDJ...that is simply not correct!
It seems to me that you are advocating "Replacement Theology".
Paul anticipated a question that would surely arise among his Gentiles in Romans 11:1......
“I say then, have they stumbled that they should fall?”
Gentile believers would be tempted to dismiss Israel because it appeared they would never recover. Even today, there are those who advocate supersessionism or replacement theology, and that does appear what you are suggesting, which holds that the Church has completely replaced Israel and will inherit the promises to be fulfilled only in a spiritual sense.
In other words, according to this view, ethnic Israel is forever excluded from the promises—the Jews will not literally inherit the Promised Land. What then would happen to Israel? What about the Old Testament prophecies that Israel as a nation would repent and be re-gathered to the land in the last days as a permanent possession in Deut. 30:1-10!
Romans 11 then conclusively shows Gentile believers that God is not yet “done” with Israel, who has only temporarily lost the privilege of representing God as His people. Since “the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable” (11:29), “all Israel will be saved” in order to fulfill God’s covenant with ethnic Israel (11:25–28), including the promise of land inheritance as seen in Deut. 30.
While the “natural branches” were cut off because Israel failed, God’s purposes are not complete until Israel is also grafted back into the people of God to share in the promises to Abraham and his seed. This brings full circle God’s larger redemptive plan as seen in Romans 11"30-36, for both Jews and Gentiles as distinct populations within the people of God in the Davidic (or Millennial) Kingdom. Indeed, the prophets saw this kingdom as the “final form” of the olive tree, so that Israel—reversing roles—would then bless the Gentiles, enabling them to join the people of God (Zech. 8:13, 20-23).
You said.....
"The sabbath was not a sign of the Mosaic covenant as you mentioned..It was a sign between God and his people."
Isn't it actually both????
Moses received it form God and he gave it to his people as a sign. I really do not see how we need to debate that.
The Mosaic Covenant says in Exodus 31:12-18 ........
"And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, 13Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the LORD that doth sanctify you. 14Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people. 15Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death. 16Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant. 17It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed. 18And he gave unto Moses, when he had made an end of communing with him upon mount Sinai, two tables of testimony, tables of stone, written with the finger of God."
My dear brother......that is just not the case at all. Do you realize that God never promised Abraham or the Jews heaven. He and they were promised THE LAND! YOU as a believer are promised a home in heaven in John 14:3. Do you want to be in the LAND or heaven?
The promise of the Land is an important aspect of the One Gospel that was preached by Jesus and the Apostles. Abraham and the believers are promised the Land, not Heaven. The faithful who have died will be raised from the grave and together with the faithful now living today will inherit the Land when Jesus returns to establish the Kingdom upon the earth for the 1000 years.
I dont know that theology...Everything is spiritual..whether jew or gentile we all have to come through Christ to get to The Father.
We are not inheriting heaven.We are inheriting the earth,the land.
We are going to dwell on earth..A new earth.
Revelations 21- And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
Out eternal home is earth.
There's no right answer to the wrong question, RDJ. It's not a matter of whether the "hallowedness" carried on to the following seventh days of each week thereafter. The text states what I pointed out quite succinctly form the KJV text itself, in that the "hallowedness" is stated as singular, not plural. That singular day, in that one week, which leaves no room for any other day sharing in that special attribution from what I can see in the text, is the only one addressed in that context. No others are in any way represented as even a suggested possibility, unless you can point it out to me. The context does not even suggest that what was applied to that very day in the creation week was in perpetuity. If you believe otherwise, which I'm already convinced that you do, then please provide backing for that belief.
Now, to avoid the inevitable matching of wits through manipulative questions designed to guide the other into some trap, I prefer to stick to the text itself, and I hope you will agree to that. In other words, rather than to ask me if I believe the "hallowedness" carried on to the following sabbaths, please show to me where I erred in any way in my exegesis. Where did I allegedly miss any clear indicator that the Lord intended for that special "hallowedness" within that one creation week sabbath to be carried on to other following weeks. Strong emotions about that belief you seem to grasp and hold to is not ample evidence for anything...other than you believe what you believe. That's fine. I'm not trying to convince you otherwise. I'm simply trying to understand why you believe what you believe about this. Let's stick to the text, not what either of us personally believes about days long since passed.
Thank you for indulging my curiosity. I love sharpening my exegetical blades, which helps me to hone in with precision onto topics throughout scriptures. We ALL need that sharpening...to keep us sharp.
MM
Hmm. What about discipleship? How would that fit in, if any at all?
Good discussion, though.
MM
And right there is the problem!!!!!!!!! All of this back and forth and we finally get to the reason.
Your theology is flawed. You just said what a denomination teaches which is NOT what the Bible teaches. As a result your theology is man centered instead of Bible centered.
John 14:3.........
"If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, there you may be also."
Where is Jesus Christ??????
Luke 22:66-69...............
“And as soon as it was day, the elders of the people and the chief priests and the scribes came together, and led Him into their council, saying, Are you the Christ? Tell us. And He said unto them, If I tell you, you will not believe: And if I also ask you, you will not answer Me, nor let Me go. Hereafter shall the Son of man sit on the right hand of the power of God”.
Do you think that God lives on the land or is His home in heaven?????
Friend, our promised land is God's heavenly dwelling place, a place where we will dwell with God and be with Him forever:
Rev. 21:3.........
"And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, "Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God."
The Bride of Christ is the Church!
The city of New Jerusalem that comes down from heaven, suspended over earthly Jerusalem is also the home of the church and as such the city and the church are the Bride of Christ. That my friend is where we as born again believers will live.
Revelation 21:1-2..........
" And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. 2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband."
As I have already given you the Scriptures....the Jews were the ones that God Promised the land to. He never promised them heaven!
If you are looking for the Promised Land you are looking in the wrong place.
Just so that you know, Jehovah Witnesses teach exactly what you just posted my friend.