Order of Events in the Gathering?
- Thread starter Musicmaster
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Like you said.sabbath means rest..God rested the 7th day.The sabbath originates at creation because God rested at creation thus instituting a day of rest which would be the 7th day because thats the day he chose to rest on and to bless.I can use the word rest ,no problem its all the same.
Genisis 26:5- Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.
My point with Genisis 26:5 is that there were laws for God's people before Moses.
Even Noah new about clean and unclean animals which is in the law of Moses.
Genisis 7:2- Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female: and of beasts that are not clean by two, the male and his female.
Does the evidence suggest that they knew about a day of rest on the 7th day or not.Its more probably that they did know.
God must have told Adam and Eve that there are seven days in a week.Or do you think they didn't know?and if they did know I think God would have mentioned what the 7th day is all about.
You asked......
"Does the evidence suggest that they knew about a day of rest on the 7th day or not.Its more probably that they did know."
the answer I gave you is NO! There is NO written record of such a thing haven taken place.
The problem here is NOT whether or not God told Adam and Eve. I am sur He did. Did they know? Of course they did.
That is not the problem. The problem is that there is NO RECORD in the Scriptures of that taking place. God did not tell them anything about the Sabbath and it was not seen in the Scriptures until Exod. 16:23-30.
This was twenty-five hundred years after the creation of man. It was a new command to the Jews.
On Friday, Moses said to the people, “Tomorrow is a solemn rest, a holy Sabbath unto the Lord” !!!!
Now I am not the brightest French in a happy meal. IMHO I am positive that there was an observance of a day of rest before Ex. 16:23 but the fact is that there is NO RECORD of it.
The actual words of Moses was "To-morrow is the rest of the holy Sabbath" — Just as there is NO record of the Isralite keeping this as a holy day........There is also nothing either in the text or context that seems to intimate that the Sabbath was now first given to the Israelites, as some have supposed.
From my past understanding on this, in the Hebrew grammer, it is here spoken of as being perfectly well known, from its having been generally observed. The commandment, it is true, may be considered as being now renewed; because they might have supposed that in their unsettled state in the wilderness they might have been exempted from the observance of it.
But again, that is supposition not Bible fact. It makes perfect sense, but we should be careful to not make a doctrine out of it.
Now we can "think" what God said and we can can think ... "Logic demands" this and that. However the real time truth is just not there my friend.
Blessings my friend!
I understand.
However, that Sculpture in Rev. IMHO does not apply today.
I do not think that there is any "Church" doctrine found in the Revelation. Contextually, the people living in that day, in virtue of the word to which they bore witness; not simply, I think, because they had a word of God to which they could bear witness, but because they had a word of God and did bear witness to it and that testimony will lead to their death.........."and they loved not their lives unto the death."
All I am saying is that from experience and observation, most people do not know what a testimony is. Because they can not explain what Christ has done for them, they begin to ADD things to their story so as to make it more exciting to those listening.
Allow me to give you an example:
Many, may years ago, a lovely Christian lady of about 90 years old gave this testimony.................
"Last night I woke up to see Jesus standing by my bed. I had had a tooth ache for days and I prayed for Jesus to heal me and there He was.
He pulled my bad tooth and replaced it with a gold one and......SEE, it is right here".
Of course there was shouts of Amen and praise the Lord all around.
Now the rest of the story. That ladies son later told me that he took his mother to the dentist that day. The dentist removed a tooth and the dentist placed a new gold tooth in her mouth. Age, pain medication and excitement to give God the glory did the rest.
My position is firmly on the bible..yours however seems to be based on tradition.
Yeah so I suppose God rested on the 7th day and blessed it ,made it holy, and didnt tell anybody until Moses 2500 years later.Ok well great..not sure how the conversation got here.If there's one thing I learnt is that tradition is here to stay.
Hello RDJ;
Do you and your family attend church weekly and what is considered your sabbath "day of rest?" If so, what does God say about your day of rest with your family?
It feels right when I pray to God about my day of rest, to worship Him with my wife and get refreshed before I get back to serving.
God bless you and your family.
I would only say that the "tradition" is that the Sabbath is said to have started in Genesis on the 7th day.
The Bible record says that it began in Exodus 16. So, we can follow "tradition" or we can accept the written Word of God.
Now as I stated......it is very probable that God did in fact tell Adam. It is just as probable that Adam told Seth and Seth told his children.
However, what is actually known is that the Sabbath does not show up till we get to Exodus 16 when God gives His Law to the children of Israel.
Now if you are Jewish, I would say that you have a real reason to debate this. If you are are 7 Day Advatist you would have a real reason to debate.
Other than that.....not so much!
As for me and my family, we have corporate church worship for the Lord Jesus on Sunday because the Scriptures says that is what we should do because that is the day He rose from the dead.
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Now really my brother. After all the Scripture I posted for you, you say that I am basing my thoughts on tradition?
I understand that you have a real need to believe what you have been told, but Really????
So then lets do this.....why don't you post the Scripture...since you are firmly following the Bible, where the Sabbath is seen before Exodus 16 and said to be something that the church is to follow.
Hallelujah! My spirit bears witness to that testimony! <------(just kiddin)
I have several more......just ask!
RDJ,
Please indulge me on this, if you would. When you say "...nullifying his own creation," what do you mean. Did the sabbath the Lord took for Himself somehow legitimize His creation? What is nullified if one does not rest on the seventh day, if that's what you're saying? I'm just trying to wrap my brain around your thoughts on all this.
Why?
Well, if there is some jewel I can dredge up out of this, then it's worthwhile to me and other here. I don't consider anything brought up from within the Bible is petty. All of it is worth exploring.
MM
Ok..can you please answer me this first..
God blessed the 7th day right?now my question simply is this. Does the 7th day still have that blessing? Please answer me this as simply as you can.If anybody reading this wants to answer please feel free.
I think we beginning to go around a circle now.the sabbath is the day God rested,He rested at the beginning in Genisis before Exodus.If you cannot connect the dots then rather leave it there.
Sunday observance however is nowhere in the bible.Not before exodus and not after.Not in the old testament and not in the new..It is purely based on tradition.Like I said before,a simple google search will tell that it started hundreds of years after Christ.
Hey Bob..I think to base our walk in this life on what we feel is a mistake.But what does the Word say?
God has chose a day of rest for us..we dont get to choose.He lead by example at the beginning.He blessed the day and that day is still blessed today.
I know our leaders preach a different tune..but just like the leaders during Jesus's days on earth.They are wrong,they are leading people away from the truth..What happened then is the same thing happening now..history repeats itself.The majority are never in the know..
I’ll try…
Genesis 2:3 NASB
[3] Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made.
Hebrews 4:10 NASB
[10] For the one who has entered His rest has himself also rested from his works, as God did from His.
John 19:30 NASB
[30] Therefore when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, "It is finished!" And He bowed His head and gave up His spirit.
Hebrews 4:3 NASB
[3] For we who have believed enter that rest, just as He has said, "As I SWORE IN MY WRATH, THEY SHALL NOT ENTER MY REST," although His works were finished from the foundation of the world.
yes, the blessing of entering into His eternal rest.
Hey..thats not what im asking..im asking about the blessing that he blessed the 7th day with..has that blessing vanished or does that day still contain the blessing within itself?
Sorry, my point was that the blessing you are referring to belongs to the Old Creation, not the New. It is temporal and so…
Colossians 2:16-17 NASB
[16] Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day- [17] things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ.
Why this Sabbath push in the first place?
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The simple answer is yes. That day, the one within which He rested, was indeed hallowed, as is written.
I say that because, equally important is to look at what ISN'T said in that context. That blessing of that one day is not said to be in perpetuity.
Suppose, however, that the Lord had inspired Moses to write the Hebrew wording that indicated all the seventh days from then, onward, were hallowed, blessed, or whatever word one chooses, what would that mean? How do we derive such a meaning in the dull roar of the silence thereafter?
I would agree that it's beneficial for all of us to rest one day in seven. Yes. However, I can't find anywhere in scripture where there's a definition provided as to what it means for a day to have been hallowed in the creation week. The Lord governed the Jews, forcing them to rest one day in seven...considering how laborious life was back then compared to now. They didn't "go to church" who lived out in the outlying areas. They rested, pure and simple...until the religious leaders laid down hundreds of pages of constraining definitions, such as how many steps one could take in that day before it was considered "work," and that they were not allowed to lift any food to their mouths weighing more than a dried fig, ad absurdum, ad infinitum.
I hope that answers your question, and then some. This is cool stuff to bring forth for discussion. I like it. If I'm wrong, then some readjustments are in order in my tiny little cavern of a brain...
MM
Dear RDJ......we have been going in a circle from the very 1st time you brought this up.
It is clear that you have a "pet" theology of wanting to keep the Law or the Sabbath. Why be deceptive on it.
I know you are sincere but you said you follow the Bible and not tradition. But when shown to you that the Sabbath did not even come into existance until Ex. 16, you rejected that and stood on the tradition you are condemning.
For all who read our conversation allow me to say that most Bible scholars believe the reason Christians worship on Sunday is that it is the day Christ rose from the dead.
Others believe Christians may have begun Sunday worship in the first century to escape the persecution of Nero, a wicked Roman emperor who did all within his power to destroy Christianity. Knowing the Christians worshiped on the Sabbath made them easy to find. Nero would have them killed, and then burn their bodies in his courtyards at night for entertainment. It was a terrible time for Christians.
Others believe that Constantine, the first Christian Roman emperor, changed the day of rest to Sunday during the fourth century.
Apparently, he had forced the survivors of his conquests to join the Christian Church. In an attempt to appease these new converts, (and to avoid the appearance of showing favor to the Christians), the day of worship was changed to Sunday.
Still, others believe the day of worship was changed centuries later by the Catholic Church, just because they were in power and could do as that wanted.
Then along comes the Apostle Paul. The Apostle Paul was helping those under the Old Testament Law, make the transition to the New Testament. Other religions were also joining the new Christian Church at this time, and many of these had a favorite day of worship and worshipped false gods.
He wrote in Romans 14:5-6......
"One man esteems one day as better than another, while another man esteems all days alike [sacred]. Let everyone be fully convinced (satisfied) in his own mind. He who observes the day observes it in honor of the Lord".
Paul used the term, "with a good conscience.” The ultimate answer is not in which day, but in whom we worship. According to the teachings of the Apostle Paul, we are to consider every day to be a day of worship, with no one day being more important than another.
However, I believe scripture calls for God’s people to set aside one day of the week as a day of rest, and the day most Christians observe is Sunday because that is the day Jesus Christ rose from the dead.
Now so as to be clear, RDJ is correct is that the word "Sunday" is not mentioned in the Bible at all, but there are eight New Testament texts that mention the "first day."
However, to claim that as a doctrine and to reject the same fact that the word SABBATH is not seen in the Scriptures until Exodus 16 is circular reasoning!!!! That is like taking an apple from a basket with your left and and then putting it back with your right hand. It is either right for one or n=for none.
Acts 20:&.........
"On the first day of the week, when we were gathered together to break bread, Paul talked with them, intending to depart on the next day, and he prolonged his speech until midnight.
Now you all know the "rest of this story".
Does it matter if the church gathers to worship on Sabbath or Sunday !!! NOT ONE LITTLE BIT!
Agreed. We can not and must not think that when anything found in the Bible does not agree with what we want...we then consider that as "petty".
Something I learned from a great Bible teacher a long time ago about debates such as this one is that.......
"people in general like what they know even if what they know is wrong because they live in a comfort zone mentally. So when exposed to something different from what they know, they reject it out of hand".