Indicators of Recent Creation or Cataclysm

A great thing about nature as an expression of God's divine nature is that it can be profitably studied and by learning the nature of nature we learn the nature of Him.
Interesting post and an interesting discussion in general.

Although the exact provenance is not universally accepted and somewhat apocryphal in its exact wording, I’ve nevertheless always enjoyed the quote attributed to biologist J.B.S. Haldane on “Gods Creation”. A version of which appears in his 1940’s book, “What is Life”, in which Haldane discussed the prevalence of stars and beetles:

“The Creator would appear as endowed with a passion for stars[1] on the one hand, and for beetles on the other, for the simple reason that there are nearly 300,000[2] species of beetle known, and perhaps more, as compared with somewhat less than 9,000 species of birds and a little over 10,000 species of mammals”.

[1] A quadrillion stars, or a 1 + 24 0’s. Many feel this is a gross underestimation as more detailed looks at the universe are showing even more galaxies than just a few years ago in Haldane’s time.
[2] Now 350,000+ by more recent data.
 
I am sorry Brother, I can not agree. When God wrote the heavens declare his glory. No one knew about light years or how long it would take for the light to get there. So how long it took the light to get from a star to earth for us to see the light had no bearing on Gods word, or how it declares his glory.

As for miracles. When Jesus made the blind man see, He went against nature When he rose Lazarus from he dead. He went against nature. When he cause the Earth to stop rotating so they could have one more hour of sunlight, that was against nature. When he turned the water to blood. That was against nature. When he spoke. And that which was nothing became the heavens and the earth and all that was in it. that was against nature. I can go on and on and on. And it is why most people reject the creation record. Because it goes against nature.

as for Yom and era. What basis do we use to say and evening and morning are the begining of an era. And what purpose does that bible say we had a required era to be completed between each day? Again, Jesus said he rested on the 7th, and told isreal as he rested on day 7, so should they rest on day 7. I six days God worked, and rested on the seventh, in the same notion, they should work for 6 dayes and rest on the 7th.

That is more than enough proof from Gods own words to see each day in genesis as a day, not an era.

I used to be an old earth GAP believer, I was that way because as a teenage, it answered a lot of questions I had. About ten years ago. I started to study the flood. It not only answered the questions I had in a more precise way. it changed my view, and is the reason I became a young earth creationist.
When God rested on the 7th 24-hour day, what did he do on the eighth 24-hour day. If God is still resting now, then the 7th day is longer than 24 hours. Is there a problem of consistency here?
 
When God rested on the 7th 24-hour day, what did he do on the eighth 24-hour day. If God is still resting now, then the 7th day is longer than 24 hours. Is there a problem of consistency here?
Yes. In my view anyway

Exodus 20:11
For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lordblessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it


Exodus 31:14-17
You shall keep the Sabbath, therefore, for it is holy to you. Everyone who [profanes it shall surely be put to death; for whoever does any work on it, that person shall be cut off from among his people. 15 Work shall be done for six days, but the seventh is the Sabbath of rest, holy to the Lord. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death. 16 Therefore the children of Israel shall keep the Sabbath, to observe the Sabbath throughout their generations as a perpetual covenant. 1It is a sign between Me and the children of Israel forever; for in sixdays the Lord made the heavens and the earth, and on the seventh day He rested and was refreshed.’ ”

There is no provision for a continual rest. That would be adding to the word somethign that is not there

God said he rested on the 7th.. Not that he rested since then
 
The record of the church (small c, meaning church as an organization of very fallible men) has not been stellar.

As the early church incorporated more Greeks, particularly those who had been taught an Aristotelian view of the creation, the church began to interpret much of the Bible through Aristotelian point of view.

It is the controversy over this view Augustine de Hippo wrote about in his Literal Meaning of Genesis. His thesis was that if, as the Aristotelian view (i.e. spherical earth) is true (he never took a clear side), than the scriptures must be interpreted in a manner that allows for this truth.

Until recently, Augustine was held in high regard, not only for his renunciation of the Manichean heresy, but for honestly documenting his own struggles with sin, and as a historical answer to his mother's prayers. On the last few years, I have noted a marked tendency to label Augustine as a heretic

Over the next few centuries, the Aristotelian model of the cosmos was held to be the message of scripture.

This when Copernicus wrote about a Sun centered view of the solar system he was banned, and when Galileo used the telescope to show that there were moons around Saturn and the orbits of cometary bodies, contrary to Aristotelian teaching and thus their view of scripture, Galileo was convicted of suspicion of heresy and kept under house arrest.

When Columbus proposed to reach the orient by sailing west, those who had an interest in existing practices used the flat world theory to argue against him. While common sailors were mostly taught by practical experience and may have been superstitious, ship masters and navigators knew geometry well and in the Mediterranean were used to sailing outside of the sight of land. They were used ti knowing how far north or south they were by sun and stars, but they did not know how to judge east/west until reliable time keeping let them use the sun to find longitude.

The thing is, the church was well aware of both the Greek view of a spherical world, and the Egyptian view. Both the Greeks and ancient Egypt has developed estimates of the size of the world and copies of these documents were kept by the church. The church even sponsored several efforts to measure the size of the Earth for itself, one being by using the angle of sunlight down wells in northern Italy and in southern Italy, using the distance between the wells and difference in angle to estimate the size of the Earth.

I do not know what is being taught our children now, but in the 1960's I was taught that a superstitious church insisted that the world was flat.

Because of the spurious issue put forward to prevent money being spent on an alternate way of reaching the orient, the church still gets a black-eye and many believe that Christians in general believed only in a flat Earth at the time of Columbus. We should be more circumspect when we make deductions beyond direct scripture teaching.


Richard Aulie (Christian Evangelist) said
It is ironic that in their thirst to oppose evolution and support the Bible, creationists embrace the biology of Aristotle, who was not a theist, and ignore the views of Rene Descartes, Francis Bacon and Robert Boyle who were.
 
I don't believe anyone can know just when God did Genesis 1:1 of creating the heavens and the earth in the beginning.

But the Hebrew phrase tohu va bohu, translated in the KJV as "without form, and void", does not mean a nothingness vacuity. Per the Hebrew it means the earth became a waste and a ruin. And thus in Genesis 1:2 we find the earth is actually there, but covered by those 'face of the deep" and "face of the waters".

Nowhere after Genesis 1:1 do we see evidence of creation of earth matter.

What the Boston University geologist Dr. Robert Schoch has disovered about the Great Sphinx is that the weathering on it is water erosion, not sand erosion. It is located at the edge of the Sahara desert which scientists say has been a desert for 5,000 years. The Egyptologists claim the Sphinx was created by the Egyptians around 2,500 B.C. Schoch's dating is much, much earlier, even back to 9,000 to 11,000 B.C., prior to the end of that last Ice Age which he said ended at 9700 B.C.

I believe somewhere around 10,000 to 14,000 B.C. is when God brought floods of waters upon the earth that caused the state of the earth at Genesis 1:2. I believe God ended that old world because of Satan's original rebellion. In Romans 8:18-25, Apostle Paul gives evidence for that old destruction before Adam and Eve. Paul showed that God placed the creation in bondage to corruption, and that the creation also seeks a release from its bondage today with the manifesting of the sons of God.

What Paul is showing is that the creation originally was not... in that state of bondage to corruption. So when was that? and that points to the original creation having been in a perfect state, not like today's. Fossil evidence of tropical plant and animal life have been found at both of the earth's poles. Same thing in deserts of the earth. And the woolly mammoths found buried in ice in the Arctic, they still had un-decayed vegetation in their mouths and in their stomachs, showing they were caught grazing in a green field, frozen instantly, and buried in waters that turned to ice. Those discoveries bypass speculations based on the validity arguments of carbon date testing and the likes.
 
In Romans 8:18-25, Apostle Paul gives evidence for that old destruction before Adam and Eve. Paul showed that God placed the creation in bondage to corruption, and that the creation also seeks a release from its bondage today with the manifesting of the sons of God.
are you sure that is not evidence for the 'new' destruction (Fall) 'since' Adam and Eve? The context of Romans 8 is not creation per se, but the hope of redemption in the midst of suffering (vss 17,18,23) including creation (and our bodies).
 
are you sure that is not evidence for the 'new' destruction (Fall) 'since' Adam and Eve? The context of Romans 8 is not creation per se, but the hope of redemption in the midst of suffering (vss 17,18,23) including creation (and our bodies).
Am I sure? Yeah. I know quite a few pastors who understand it too, but they don't teach it to their congregations. I asked one pastor why not, and he said only about 25% of the congregation would understand it, and I asked what about that 25%, didn't God give it to them? There have been Christian Bible scholars that also understood this, E.W. Bullinger (1880s) was one of them, Barnes another. So it's not like this idea is something brand new that evolutionists came up with.

Firstly, I am not an evolutionist, so I know some reading this will make that mistake thinking that, simply because they are used to always hearing the tradition that Genesis 1:1 is about today's earth being created in the state it is in now, when it was not created this way. The earth today is in a state of vanity, bondage to corruption, according to Apostle Paul in that Romans 8 chapter.

Apostle Paul uses the idea of the creation being placed in 'vanity', the very same idea of Hebrew tohu translated "without form" in Genesis 1:2. In Isaiah 45:18 God uses that same idea, tohu, for when He said He did not create the earth tohu ("vain" per KJV). The "without form, and void" phrase (Hebrew tohu va bohu) is also found in Jeremiah 4 which also speaks of the earth having gone into vanity...

Jer 4:22-28
22 For My people is foolish, they have not known Me; they are sottish children, and they have none understanding: they are wise to do evil, but to do good they have no knowledge.

23 I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light.

24
I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly.

25 I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled.

26 I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the LORD, and by His fierce anger.

27 For thus hath the LORD said,
The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end.

28 For this shall the earth mourn, and the heavens above be black: because I have spoken it, I have purposed it, and will not repent, neither will I turn back from it.
KJV


That verse 27-28 is especially telling, because He is saying He would not make a full end, but for this (reason), the earth mourns, and the heavens above be black. What does that mean with the heavens above being black. Well, what does the sky today look like when the clouds fill with water? They turn dark, signaling a storm coming.

The majority of today's violent weather is caused because of holes in the cloud atmosphere surrounding the earth. Heat of the sun beads down upon the earth causing hot air and evaporation to rise up to meet cold air in the heights, and creates a swirling effect for violent storms, tornadoes, hurricanes, cyclones, etc. This the majority believe is a natural part of God's creation of Genesis 1:1. Here, and in Romans 8, God's Word shows that is not... a natural product of His creation. Everything in this present world is in a state of breaking down and decay. Today's state of the creation is imperfect.

And just the fact that God's Word reveals there was a time when His creation was not... in that bondage state (like with what Paul showed in Romans 8 and God in Jeremiah 4), that reveals God had a previous perfect creation prior to this present world that is in bondage to corruption.

If you do a word search of how Hebrew tohu ("without form") was used in The Old Testament, you'll discover that in the majority of cases it means something that was once in good state, that went bad, or to nothing. So the nothing idea isn't really about the start of some floating vapor nebula state in the beginning with Genesis 1:2; it's about the earth having gone into a worthless, good for nothing state, with all those waters overspread upon all of it. And the fact that the earth is already being mentioned in that Genesis 1:2 verse verifies that God had already made the earth back at verse 1.

Now, the idea that God placed His original creation in bondage because of Adam's fall, or because of the flood of Noah's day, there is nothing written for that time that He did such a thing. Even the above Jeremiah 4:23-28 Scripture could not apply, since there were 8 souls aboard the ark. And God did not tremble the earth for the flood of Noah's day.

And even Peter in 2 Peter 3:5-6 he is pointing to a time when God first spoke in creating the earth, pointing to Genesis 1:1, and then reveals God destroyed that old world by waters in the very next verse. Most think that was the time of Noah, but the "by the word of God the heavens were of old" phrase is actually pointing back to Genesis 1:1 in the beginning, long before the days of Noah. or even Adam.

Plus, there is Scripture evidence (some in parable form) that during the time when Satan was originally exalted in God's Garden, following God, that nations existed upon the earth. The Revelation 12:3-4 Scripture specifically is one of those examples of the time when Satan first rebelled, drawing a third of the angels into rebellion with him, and that time is linked there to a beast system having ten horns, seven heads, but ONLY "seven crowns". That was a kingdom of the previous world 'of old', not the one in Revelation 13 (ten crowns) which is for the very end of this world. Also in Ezekiel 31, which is a parable using "the Assyria", a title Isaiah 30 also uses to point to Satan about the lake of fire prepared for him (flesh king of Assyria not judged and sentenced yet today); revealed there is a time before Satan's rebellion of old, when he was exalted in God's Eden, and "all great nations" are linked to that previous time (Ezekiel 31:6).

And like I already said, if one follows even the KJV in Genesis 1 strictly with discipline, paying attention to what the Scripture actually says, and not allow men's traditions to creep into it, one will discover that at Genesis 1:1 in the beginning is the only time when God created earth matter. God moving the waters spread upon the earth to make the dry land appear is not a statement of creating earth matter. One should easily understand that the earth had to already had been in place with waters overspread upon it in order to move those waters to make the dry land appear.
 
Last edited:
are you sure that is not evidence for the 'new' destruction (Fall) 'since' Adam and Eve? The context of Romans 8 is not creation per se, but the hope of redemption in the midst of suffering (vss 17,18,23) including creation (and our bodies).
Here's something else. You may call speculation, but for me it is not.

Rev 21:1
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away;
and there was no more sea.
KJV

That is for the final "new heavens, and a new earth" time, after Christ's future "thousand years" reign of Revelation 20.

I struggled with that phrase in red about there being no more seas in that future time. Where is all those waters upon the earth going to go, I wondered. The Millennial chapters in the Book of Ezekiel reveals there will still be waters on the earth, like rivers and the Dead Sea being fed from God's River out from the Millennial sanctuary (see Ezekiel 47). But no more sea?

My Biblical understanding is about God's original perfect creation of Genesis 1:1, and God ending that old world earth age because of Satan's rebellion, and then bringing today's 2nd world earth age at Genesis 1:2 forward, but in a state of bondage to corruption, it also seeking a release from that bondage along with our spirit at the manifesting of the sons of God (i.e., at Christ's future return in the world to come). It also involves scientific fact (not pseudo-science like evolution), but facts like how the woolly mammoth was found, and the tropical fossil remains at both of the earth's poles, the putrified palm trees in the New Mexico desert, etc.

1. I believe God's original creation of Genesis 1:1 was a 'perfect' creation, one similar to how His future new heavens and a new earth will be.

2. The earth is covered with about 70% water. Thus that Revelation 21:1 verse points to a whole lot of waters upon today's earth going somewhere, with "no more sea." I believe in God's original perfect creation, before Satan rebelled, that those waters upon the earth were originally filling the holes in today's sky atmosphere around the earth.

3. If all the holes in the sky were filled, it would mean a complete covering of the earth like with a blanket, or canopy, producing a type of greenhouse. With a greenhouse you can grown plants all year long, because its temperature is controlled evenly throughout the greenhouse, even in winter. This is how I believe God originally created His Genesis 1:1 creation, before Satan rebelled. The earth's temperature back then was even all over the whole earth. No hot spots at the equator, no freezing at the poles.

4. The earth surrounded and protected by a complete cloud canopy would account for the tropical fossils found all over the earth, in deserts, and even at the north and south poles. It suggests at one time the whole earth was one huge Paradise, God's Eden.

5. Some may not realize, but the earth's true geographical north, and magnetic north, are off about 90 miles from each (and changes position constantly). For that reason pilots flying long distances over the earth have to be sure to correct their compass heading occasionally. The old pilot saying is, "east is least and west is best", meaning correct 6 degrees traveling east, and correct 8 degrees flying west. This is because of that 90 mile error of the earth's geographic north and magnetic north. What does this suggest might have happened to the earth to cause this state of the earth? Jeremiah 4 said God trembled this earth.

6. And did you know that Apostle Paul in Hebrews 12:25-29 is pointing to a previous time when God shook this old earth, and that He is going to do it again at the end of this present world? By that level of shaking, that is pointing to a trembling of this earth associated with His consuming fire event that will end this present world per 2 Peter 3:10. So just when... did God do that previously? Not in Noah's day, for that time involved waters of a flood only. I believe geologist Dr. Robert Schoch with his geological explanations of ancient buried civilizations, (like Gobekli Tepe), point to the old world before God ended Satan's original rebellion. I believe there was a previous world before Adam and Eve.

Areas written in God's Word about such things as the above some tend to interpret strictly in an allegorical sense. I think those descriptions are much more literal than what many care to think. That's what I think about that "no more sea" idea.
 
Last edited:
3. If all the holes in the sky were filled, it would mean a complete covering of the earth like with a blanket, or canopy, producing a type of greenhouse. With a greenhouse you can grown plants all year long, because its temperature is controlled evenly throughout the greenhouse, even in winter. This is how I believe God originally created His Genesis 1:1 creation, before Satan rebelled. The earth's temperature back then was even all over the whole earth. No hot spots at the equator, no freezing at the poles.
See Job 38:9
 
Back
Top