Creeds

Siloam

Siloam

Supporter
A member of my extended family was upset some time ago. It seems that she attended a church with her granddaughter. She was concerned about some of the practices there.

She said that the pastor would read a line from the program and then the congregation would read the next, and so on. I told her that although the churches where I have been a member do not normaly do this, occaisionaly I will fellowship where this is a common feature of the worship service called responsive reading. I said that in my opinion as a non member of that church/denomination that it is a way to get the congregation actively involved with the service beyond singing and praying and listening.

She then said that after the line by line reading they all recited a longer statement which included saying they believe in the Catholic church. She was very upset.

I explained to her that it was probably a recitation of the Nicene Creed which contains the line "We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic church". I further explained that "catholic" (esp with a lower case 'c') means a unity of many, meaning that "catholic and apostolic church" means in this context all christians united under Christ, not just those of any division.

I know her home church is a member of a denomination which recognises both the Apostles Creed and the Nicene Creed. She was both unfamiliar with the creed, and the stand her church takes in its reguard.

This got me to thinking...

I know from personal experience that many churches put one or more of these statements in their statements of beliefs.

On the other-hand these same churches will introduce a new member by having them voice their alegience to Christ, but they never actually inquire about their acceptance of these creedal statements.

WHen researching the beliefs another Christian denomination (I do not remember which), I came across a statement that they eschew creedal statements since they are extra-Biblical and serve more to separate one brother from another than promote faith in God.

Beyond a given churches inclusion of thse statements in the their formal statements of belief, How important and/or authoritative are these extra-Biblical statements.
 
2404 said:
Do you think the Lord respects extra-Biblical statements?
I expect you would say not...
So if God doesn't respect them but we still do - where does that place us?
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The designation of extra-Biblical was used by one denomination to explain why they do not subscribe to any creeds, but the creeds themselves are a summary of truths taught in the Bible.

As for the Council of Nicaea, and the Nicene Creed (which was amended by the Council of Constantinople), the purpose was to come to agreement on the fundamental nature of Christ and to combat such heretical teaching as Arianism (God the Father is the only unbegotten; the Logos was begotten of the Father before the rest of creation and is perpetually subordinate to Him, etc).

I can see echos of Arianism in the teachings of Jehovas Witnesses, and certain more mainstream Christian groups.

So I think these are still relevant and a Christian may profitably study the creeds and how their church views them.

But this still leaves questions as to why so many churches reference the Nicene and Apostles creeds while so few Christians in the pews recognize them.

It is like a Calvinist not knowing the points of Calvinism or a Wesleyan not knowing the Wesleyan method.
 
I also believe that most religious organizations, Jehovah Witness, Mormons (know some),, Islam (at one time I worked with a real nice/personal Muslim fellow) have some truth in them. But scripture says the church is built on revelation. Creeds generally fixate on a truth and can't move forward. For example, Luther's message of saved by grace, true, but when Pentecost came along the Lutheran mentality could move with it.
So I'm good with creeds as long as they reflect scripture but I think we need to be able to grow because Christianity isn't static.
We live in an age of great expectation and God will raise a standard to meet it.

God has a garden of variety and though we may have different hues let us not let that hinder us.
God bless you my friend, as we move forward.
 
2404 said:
I also believe that most religious organizations, Jehovah Witness, Mormons (know some),, Islam (at one time I worked with a real nice/personal Muslim fellow) have some truth in them. But scripture says the church is built on revelation. Creeds generally fixate on a truth and can't move forward. For example, Luther's message of saved by grace, true, but when Pentecost came along the Lutheran mentality could move with it.
So I'm good with creeds as long as they reflect scripture but I think we need to be able to grow because Christianity isn't static.
We live in an age of great expectation and God will raise a standard to meet it.

God has a garden of variety and though we may have different hues let us not let that hinder us.
God bless you my friend, as we move forward.
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Living and working in the Washington DC area, I have come into contact with many people from a wide variety of countries and backgrounds (including Sikhs, Buddhists, Shinto, as well as more esoteric beliefs such as Wicca, and know that many of them are quite lovely people and earnest in their beliefs. As we talk with ( and not just _to_ ) them we must remember that they are persons that our Lord also died for and deserve respect as sons of Adam and potential brothers in faith.

I also know that missionaries sent to Muslim countries are impressed and sometimes challenged by their giving to poor and their commitment to their faith. I know one co-worker who would with knowledge of our managers 'disappear' at prayer time (unless she had a meeting).

None of that addresses man's fundamental problem (sin separating us from God).

As far as Christianity being static, the relationship between the Three-in-one and Man is the same. God is the same yesterday, today, forever. The fundamental problem with man hasn't changed since the fall, although the solution was made manifest 2000 years ago.

The only thing that has changed is more the symptoms of our rebellion manifested in society. We keep inventing modern ways of making the same mistakes that earlier deviations made.

While understanding moves forward, it does so by expanding on the work that has been done in Christs service by the theologians and preachers and everyday Christians through history. It is a mistake to just skip everything between Christs Ascension and today.
 
I didn't mean to say that man's doings are irrelevant to the cause and growth. God being omniscient and omnipotent implies that all man's thoughts and doings are part of the plan. But to be 'part' of the plan cannot be engineered - it must be predetermined (known before the foundation of the world). However, God being just has the law/means laid out. Though it be impossible for merit to enter the picture God measures the heart and in that there is a provision (parable of the ten 'virgins').
I make no claims but confess that which we all must and so run the race believing I'm not just beating the air.
My desire is Job's confession that though all around me fails 'blessed be the name of the Lord'. For if He dwells within me and I am 'part' of the plan and not just a component my victory was won on the cross.
I appreciate your writings and believe none of these things escape you.
God bless you brother.
 
Hello Siloam and 2404;

I'm enjoying your exchange with each other and this would make a good live classroom teaching. I'd be one of the attendees.

I'd like to add my thought to this topic.

When we studied Catholicism at seminary the prayer called the Nicene Creed or Apostles Creed were used as a prayer offering when a sinner sought indulgences from the church (a form of payment made in exchange for reducing the sin by the church.) This would also follow with a commitment not to repeat the sin (which is impossible,) receiving communion and praying for the church leaders including the Pope.

The creeds are a summary of truths taught in the Bible but with a sprinkle of doctrine pertaining to the Catholic church. This was commendable but created more than one problem. As the congregation prayed this prayer out loud, many members weren't praying from their hearts but felt connected because they memorized the creed, many didn't understand what they were saying and others took their eyes off the prayer and instead looked at the stained glass windows while reciting the creed. I used to be one of the congregants.

This was my experience when I attended Mass as a teen (in San Diego) for a few years and I remember the congregation was always full. When I turned 18 1/2 I left and have been with the Protestant church for decades where I received my Biblical grounding.

Today, when I have a conversation with a priest or nun (where we reside today in the SF Bay Area) they can explain the creed to me and stand firm in their apologetics. The priests are cordial but the nuns push back with me. It's like the church is their husband. lol!

However, when I have this conversation with a parish member most of the time they don't understand because they don't read the Bible (The Douay–Rheims Catholic Bible) but their faith in their church is solid besides memorizing the creed.

God bless you, brothers.
 
bobinfaith said:
However, when I have this conversation with a parish member most of the time they don't understand because they don't read the Bible
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I mentioned in other posts that when I first truly accepted Christ, I had to choose between several very different churches that played a part in preparing me for informed acceptance. Of course, at that tender point in my spiritual life, great issues of doctrine were beyond my ability to analyze. One thing I noted was that at one church, many people brought Bibles with them, but I never saw them open one, even to follow the scripture reading in the service. I thought "how useless are their Bibles".
 
2404 said:
I'm guilty lol of not always finding the chapter and verse. The techs are just too fast in putting the scripture up on the wall that a person tends to get lazy...
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Yes, much has changed since I first chose a church. Back in 1970, projecting scripture onto the wall was not common. Still, many traditional congregations refrain from such 'modern' changes to their practices.
 
Methodists, at least some, recite the apostles creed. First Christian Church here uses the projector on a screen. I prefer not to use a projector but then I dont care for the newer song books some use either. As for the Apostles Creed I dont have a problem with it. I understand the " catholic church " to mean universal church.
 
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Seems to me many of the Creeds came about out of necessity in forming a statement in defense ('apologetics') of the early churches' understanding of Scripture (against heresies). In some ways, they can be called a summary of how a denomination embraces Scripture. Hopefully, they don't become a substitute for Scripture.
Even those who say things like 'no creeds, but deeds' are formulating a creed.
With Christendom all over the map, the use of Creeds would be welcoming. IMHO.
 
I think it's a tradition that some churches have kept practicing and others have dropped.
It's helpful to some but for others it's not really necessary.

In many churches you will be singing the same songs together or perhaps reciting a prayer that everyone knows the words to, but reading it aloud may not be the same as actually understanding it in your heart.

We have some issues with children learning reading (or not learning reading) by using phonics. Sure they can SAY or sound the words out loud but do they understand the meaning? That's the thing. While a lot of learning can be by rote or repeat after me, for others drilling and vain repetitions of prayers is just something the heathen do.

I think we should all pray with understanding, and also understand the scripture rather than just repeat it from memory. Creeds are kind of like slogans or short cuts to understanding, or maybe theology in a nutshell. The intent behind them may be to prevent heresy, but it can become a bone of contention when it's not meant to. eg. 'catholic' most people take to mean the Roman Catholic Church, because thats where most people understand 'catholic' to mean. Also there are issues with 'orthodox' and 'baptist' even 'universal'...does that mean we are universalists if the creed talks about the universal church?

What about 'advent' there's churches that say they are 'adventist' and they don't mean the run up to Christmas.
 
Men's thoughts and way's added to the Bible create creeds, which create a powerless gospel, that in return creates a powerless life! Creeds also keep a person from walking on the straight and narrow, as they are heeding the doctrines and commandments of men and not of God. To be straight and blunt, the creeds of man are doctrines of devils and not doctrines of the God of the Bible!
 
Creeds are simply the set of beliefs a person or group holds to. We all have creeds and hopefully they line up with Scripture.
They let you know where a person or group is coming from before you get there. I wouldn’t walk into a Church without creeds as it would most likely end up a ‘free-for-all’ church.
 
Siloam said:
Yes, much has changed since I first chose a church. Back in 1970, projecting scripture onto the wall was not common. Still, many traditional congregations refrain from such 'modern' changes to their practices.
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You make a good point.

May I say that those of us that are at an older age will understand that we have had a cultural revolution take place over the last 50 or so years. The lines that separate real time life from fiction are hard to tell. Many Christian denominations have given in to this revolution and as a result have lost the fundamental truths of the Christian faith. Because of that, they have lost their identity as people of God.

Personally, I believe that all believers must stand firm on the essentials of the truth of God's Word found in the Scriptures which the Apostles Creed was based on. If that is not done, then the church is nothing more than a Social Club that meets to fellowship as acquaintances.

Christ told his disciples in John 8:32......
“And you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free”.

NO error or teaching presents a greater danger to the church and the world than theological error. Heresy, the denial of a doctrine central to Christianity, departs from the truth and thus has eternal consequences. The church needs the creeds not only to teach the truth but to guard against error.

​

 
Some churches give out little handbooks summing up their beliefs, or statements of faith, especially to newcomers who are curious.
If something is easily memorised it helps - some creeds are made into songs.

Though I think most people all know the words to the Lord's prayer, which is said in many churches in unison.
 
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