The Book Of ROMANS.....A Systematic Teaching

[crossnote]

Then By extension, this idea also applies to any person—Jewish, Christian, or otherwise—who thinks he can be justified before God on the basis of his deeds.

Ok, I'm not trying to trick or trap anyone, I'm just honestly curious, how does a pastor handle this verse (I just came across it), in the light of Paul's teaching on Romans?..

Psalm 7:8 ESV
The LORD judges the peoples; judge me, O LORD, according to my righteousness and according to the integrity that is in me.

I would very much like to know.

 

[Major]

Ok, I'm not trying to trick or trap anyone, I'm just honestly curious, how does a pastor handle this verse (I just came across it), in the light of Paul's teaching on Romans?..

Psalm 7:8 ESV
The LORD judges the peoples; judge me, O LORD, according to my righteousness and according to the integrity that is in me.

I would very much like to know.

I never think that of you brother. I for one always appreciate questions. I am honored you would ask me.

It is my undrstanding that David acknowledges God's role as the ultimate judge of all people; just as Paul is doing in Romans.
When we read this, we see that David appeals to the Lord to judge him. This is not a request to be taken lightly. In this case, David knows the terrible accusations of his enemies are entirely false. He has been accused of things he did not do. Which is really ironic in that he did DO a lot of other things. So, Rather than take revenge himself, he is calling on God to bring consequences to those who have attacked him (Psalm 7:6–7).

Please take note that David did not claim to be perfect or sinless (Psalm 32:1–5; 51:1).

Rather, he placed his life before the Lord as evidence of his uprightness and honesty.
David was in fact sensitive to sin and endeavored to avoid it by obeying God's Word.

David writes in Psalm 19:9–14:.....
"the fear of the LORD is clean, enduring forever; the rules of the LORD are true, and righteous altogether. More to be desired are they than gold, even much fine gold; sweeter also than honey and drippings of the honeycomb. Moreover, by them is your servant warned; in keeping them there is great reward. Who can discern his errors? Declare me innocent from hidden faults. Keep back your servant also from presumptuous sins; let them not have dominion over me! Then I shall be blameless, and innocent of great transgression. Let the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart be acceptable in your sight, O LORD, my rock and my redeemer."

In response to David's righteous and honest lifestyle, the Lord said in Acts 13:22.......
"I have found in David the son of Jesse a man after my heart, who will do all my will".

 

[Major]

Ok, I'm not trying to trick or trap anyone, I'm just honestly curious, how does a pastor handle this verse (I just came across it), in the light of Paul's teaching on Romans?..

Psalm 7:8 ESV
The LORD judges the peoples; judge me, O LORD, according to my righteousness and according to the integrity that is in me.

I would very much like to know.

Morning brother I hope all is well. I thought upon your question and this morning I went to see a friend of mine. He teaches here at Stetson University and He has a doctorate in the Hebrew language and has been very helpful to me over the years. I wanted to make sure of the responce I gave to you. I explained your need to know and asked him what his thought were on the specific verse in question.

We unloaded verse #8 and where it says ."The LORD shall judge the peoples; judge me, O LORD" means that this was the attitude that protected David from presumption. He honestly invited God’s judgment and correction.

Then to go on therefore, David asked for God’s blessing "according to my righteousness, and according to my integrity within me." In other words, he prayed, “Lord, to the extent that I am righteous before You, bless me and protect me from my enemies.”

That does not mean in any way that he thought he was perfect in God's eyes. This was NOT about eternal judment of God on him.

So then, what we see here is that when David longed for justice, "according to my righteousness and integrity", it wasn’t that He wanted ultimate and perfect judgment before God; he looked for justice on the earthly level, justice between him and his false accuser.

Does that help your understanding?

 

[Major]

Romans 2:26............
"Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?"

To use another figure of speech so as to make it more palatable, IF my wife loses her wedding ring, does that mean that we are not now married ?????

You see, marriage more than a piece of jewelry. The ring is a symbol but it is not what makes two people married. Same with circumcision.

 

[Major]

Romans 2:27...........
"And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?"

Now allow me to use another illustration to show you how country boy English works.

Lets take another piece of jewerly.....A CROSS! Wearing a CROSS speaks of something sacred. It identifoes the person wearing it to the thing that Jesus Christ died on. A CROSS!

Now......does that Cross make the wearer a believer in Christ?....NO!
Does wearing that cross make the wearer faithful to Christ?.......NO!

Over the years, my wife and I have gone to Maggie Valley NC a lot. We just love that area. Many, many years ago, in a restaurant in Waynesville (about 2 miles from Maggie Valley) my wife and I saw one of the deacon from our church. He did not notice us as he had his eyes on the beautiful young woman across from him. We know this man and his wife and this woman was NOT his wife. The thing that my wife noticed was that he was wearing the large gold cross that the always wore. Mt 1st thought was.......What a mockery!!!!!

When we got back I asked him to a conference with me. I explained to him what my wife and I had seen and I asked him if he would like to explain......maybe that was your sister or a real estate agent some such thing-- I posed to him. Immediately he broke down and confessed. He had been having an affair with that woman for years and he confessed. You see............his wearing the large gold cross was meaningless!!!! In fact it made a mockery of what Jesus did on the cross.

Now someone is going to say........Did you ask him to resign as a deacon?

Someone will say......."I would have fired him on the spot".

As a business man in my past, I did exactly those things. When an employee was caught stealing, BOOM, the hammer fell.
If an employee have sexual relations with a married person in the company, BOOM, the hammer fell!

But as a Pastor.........NO! We prayed, he cried and he resigned as a deacon. I rejected his resignation. I asked him to confess to his wife privately and then to his church publicly to show his contrition. He did that. Then I told the church what he volunteered to do and asked what their please was.

How many of you remember the woman caught in adultery? The church people told Jesus that this woman was "caught in the act of adultery" in John 8:4. The church people quoted the laws of Moses that demanded punishment for this woman. They asked Jesus, "What do you say?"

The chairmen of the deacon......an elderly man of about 85, crippled with artheritus and could barly walk, made his way to the front of the church. Standing there, weak, and shaking he said..........

"church...........I love how Jesus addressed this very delicate matter. Jesus stooped to the ground, and with his fingers wrote on the ground, as though he heard nothing that they said. As a child, I imagined Jesus writing, "What about you, what have you done?" Which one of YOU will stand here and do what this man has confessed. YOU are guilty as he is, not maybe of adultery but SIN!"
Something happened on the inside of those church people.

As always, that old deacon spoke with conviction and redemption: "All right, but let the one who has never sinned throw the first stone!"

May I say to you that the church RESTORED that man! Revival broke out! People cried and hugged and confessed!

Now, I am an old fashioned FIRE and BRIMSTONE preacher who condemns Sin and demands action. But I am also now just as convinced that if the members of the body of Christ were more convicted of our own conscience, we would less likely deliver our brothers and sisters up to be punished. If the light of God's Word shined in some of our very "dark" places, we would find grace easier to extend.

Remember the woman, not only did her accusers leave, but there was no one there to accuse her. Jesus' final response to this woman is both incredible and convicting: "Neither do I [condemn you]. Go and sin no more".

Jesus' final word to this adulterous woman gives a death blow to the self-righteous heart in the body of Christ. The self-righteous heart in the church is evident when we as believers seek to bring justice to every sin without taking the time to see the sinner. How can we let adultery go unpunished? Is it easy? Of course not, but the church must follow the example of our Savior.

How can it be that Jesus did not condemn the woman caught in the act of adultery? Jesus came to seek and to save those who are lost. Well, what about believers who commit adultery? Jesus came to redeem all of us back to God; he desires that no one perish.

What has that got to do with Romans 2:28????/ Probably nothing to you. But I was reminded by the Holy Spoirt of this event and it blessed ME to tell it to you. Maybe YOU have been in a similar situation? Maybe YOU were not treated in the way of Love and Restoration and YOU are still hurting today from the way you were treated.

If so.......I am very sorry!

 

[Major]

Romans 2:28..........
"For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:".
The Mosaic Law stated that circumcision was of the heart!

Deut. 10:16.........
"Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked."

Now may I say to you that this is a SCHOCKING statement made here by Paul.

Paul has said, in essence, that when it comes to being judged by God, Jewishness doesn't even matter. Now this is a JEW telling JEWS!

Specifically, the ritual of circumcision, which identifies someone as part of the Jewish community, is meaningless when not accompanied by obedience. He is saying what the Law says in that Only those who keep the law will be declared righteous.

Later, Paul will write that no one is able to keep the law in Romans 3:10, so all must be saved through Christ alone, by grace alone, through faith alone which is what he will say Romans 3:22–25.

Now what if I and every Preacher on the face of this earth today began to preach..........
"if you want to go to heaven you must keep the law of God 100%!."

What if that was really the truth????? How many do YOU think will be in heaven????? NOT ME! And not any of you!

Now Paul redefines what it even means to be a Jew and to be circumcised. Paul insists it's not about being born Jewish or even being physically circumcised. True Jewishness, Paul will insist in the following verse, is about the state of a person's heart before God. Specifically, Paul's words here involve Judaism and are directed to people of Israel. However, the broader point is meant to apply to everyone. That is the definition of "SYSTAMATIC TEACHING!"

Religious sacraments, labels, and other forms of good works are not what save us. We must be perfect in order to avoid judgment; since nobody can be perfect, grace becomes our only hope of redemption.

CHAPTER # 3'S THEME WILL BE: THE AVAILABILITY OF A RIGHTEOUSNESS FROM GOD.

 

[crossnote]

Morning brother I hope all is well. I thought upon your question and this morning I went to see a friend of mine. He teaches here at Stetson University and He has a doctorate in the Hebrew language and has been very helpful to me over the years. I wanted to make sure of the responce I gave to you. I explained your need to know and asked him what his thought were on the specific verse in question.

We unloaded verse #8 and where it says ."The LORD shall judge the peoples; judge me, O LORD" means that this was the attitude that protected David from presumption. He honestly invited God’s judgment and correction.

Then to go on therefore, David asked for God’s blessing "according to my righteousness, and according to my integrity within me." In other words, he prayed, “Lord, to the extent that I am righteous before You, bless me and protect me from my enemies.”

That does not mean in any way that he thought he was perfect in God's eyes. This was NOT about eternal judment of God on him.

So then, what we see here is that when David longed for justice, "according to my righteousness and integrity", it wasn’t that He wanted ultimate and perfect judgment before God; he looked for justice on the earthly level, justice between him and his false accuser.

Does that help your understanding?

Ok, so sometimes 'righteousness' is spoken in absolute terms and sometimes in relative terms is how I am understanding it.

 

[crossnote]

Deut. 10:16.........
"Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked."

Colossians 2:11 ESV
In him also you were circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ,

Deuteronomy is telling the people to circumcise their hearts whereas Colossians is indicating it was done in Christ...what gives?

 

[Major]

Ok, so sometimes 'righteousness' is spoken in absolute terms and sometimes in relative terms is how I am understanding it.

Actually, you are getting out of my ability. I am only rambling not stating anything but, You know brother, haven't words and terms always been in the arena of Absolute or Relative.

Isn't FEAR a relative word? Isn't "THIRST" a relative term? What about, "Affordable home" is a very relative term?

It seems to me that as time works on the church, ABSOLUTE becomes more and more of a clouded issue.

To me......Christianity, is built on the premise that truth is absolute and that the teachings of the Bible are universal. The notion that truth is relative presents one of the most significant challenges facing the Church.

How does that relate to your question.......I have NO idea whatsoever. It seems that I am just rambling on about nothing.

The thought just came to me.
God told Adam and Eve that if they ate the fruit they would SURELY DIE. Is that absolute.???? To me it is. However............
Now they lived another 960 years and then they died. So which was the absolute truth?
That they would die then..........or that that they would die later????

Of course we know that they did die spiritually the MOMENT they ate and that they died physically later (960 years).

You tell me.....I do not know .

 

[Major]

Deuteronomy is telling the people to circumcise their hearts whereas Colossians is indicating it was done in Christ...what gives?

Isn't that the same thing?

In Deuteronomy 10:16, God tells us to "circumcise the foreskin of your heart, and be stiff-necked no longer."

Then Deuteronomy 30:6, God says He will perform the circumcision: "And the Lord your God will circumcise your heart."

So then there are TWO types of circumcision then and that is what Paul is addressing in Colossians 2:11.

Again. it seems that we are back to ABSOLUTE and RELATIVE!

The Bible says that Circumcision was a visible, continuous reminder that Israel owed its existence to God, ( ABSOLUTE ???) who created them out of nothing. Then in the New Testament, Paul tells us that membership in God’s family is “circumcision neutral” (RELATIVE???) in Galatians 5:6. What made the difference.???? Seems like TWO things.
1. Circumcision was for the Jews.
2. Time.

Paul is saying that It is faith in Christ, not a Jewish identity signified by circumcision, that makes someone part of the Church.
Well, actually that is what saved the Old Test. people...faith in Christ !

Circumcision symbolized the putting away of sin (disobedience to God) and living in obedience to God’s law and His commandments.
Have you ever wondered if there was a ceremony or ritual whereby the men had to prove they were circumcised?????
Then what about the woman???

Most of the Colossian Christians were Gentiles who had never been physically circumcised. Paul assures them that they were indeed circumcised in a spiritual sense, which is even more important than physical circumcision.

Apparently, they were being taught that they had to be circumcised to be right with God. Paul makes it clear that they were circumcised, by putting off the sins of the flesh.

 

[crossnote]

Actually, you are getting out of my ability. I am only rambling not stating anything but, You know brother, haven't words and terms always been in the arena of Absolute or Relative.

Isn't FEAR a relative word? Isn't "THIRST" a relative term? What about, "Affordable home" is a very relative term?

It seems to me that as time works on the church, ABSOLUTE becomes more and more of a clouded issue.

To me......Christianity, is built on the premise that truth is absolute and that the teachings of the Bible are universal. The notion that truth is relative presents one of the most significant challenges facing the Church.

How does that relate to your question.......I have NO idea whatsoever. It seems that I am just rambling on about nothing.

The thought just came to me.
God told Adam and Eve that if they ate the fruit they would SURELY DIE. Is that absolute.???? To me it is. However............
Now they lived another 960 years and then they died. So which was the absolute truth?
That they would die then..........or that that they would die later????

Of course we know that they did die spiritually the MOMENT they ate and that they died physically later (960 years).

You tell me.....I do not know .

I understand God's righteousness as absolute as He is Holy and changes not.
Our righteousness (unless imputed) is a 'righteousness' relative to each other and is faulty apart from the imputed righteousness of Christ.

 

[crossnote]

Isn't that the same thing?

In Deuteronomy, we are told to circumcise; in Colossians, it is done by Christ (without hands). Not the same thing.

 

[Major]

In Deuteronomy, we are told to circumcise; in Colossians, it is done by Christ (without hands). Not the same thing.

Deuteronomy 10:16,
“Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked.”

Yes, we do not learn a lot, but we do learn a little from this verse. God tells us to do it; therefore it must be something we can do on our own. Also, He implies the result would be that we would no longer have a haughty or stubborn personality. But it does not make us a child of God.

Deuteronomy 30:6,
“And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.”

Here, the Bible tells us plainly that God will circumcise someone’s heart. This statement is not a contradiction from the previous verse where it is pointed out we can do it ourselves; it is an addition of information.

I guess the point I was trying to make was that No one becomes a Christian through doing stuff or participating in religious ceremonies. People become a Christian by placing faith in Jesus Christ.

 

[Major]

I understand God's righteousness as absolute as He is Holy and changes not.
Our righteousness (unless imputed) is a 'righteousness' relative to each other and is faulty apart from the imputed righteousness of Christ.

Agreed.

 

[Major]

Romans 3:1..........
"What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?"

Profit = Excess.

The question has to do with the outward badge of God's special covenant with the Jews....Circumcision.

So, if the Jew and the Gentile are on the same footing before God, what then is the supposed advantage of the Jew and what good is his circumcision? Does it look to you as if Paul is in danger of erasing a distinction which God has made????

Actually, Paul is anticipating that some readers may take his words in the previous verses to suggest there is no advantage to being a member of God's chosen people, Israel. He has already written that all people, both the Jews and Gentiles, have earned God's judgment with our sinfulness. Those under the law of Moses, the Jews, have all broken the law.

So the facts then are that the Jews have the law and even that they are circumcised, as all male Jews were, will not keep them from answering to God for their own personal sin.

So, In that sense, Paul has said, there is no difference between Jews and Gentiles. So is there any advantage to being included in the Jewish people and being circumcised, as God has commanded?

I think that we hear the same argument today but in different words. Why do I need to go to a church and be a church member like you.

Paul will answer this question using a sort of back-and-forth approach in the following verses. By posing these questions, and providing answers, Paul gives a very direct counter to anyone who might raise those points in objection to his teachings.

 

[Papa Smurf]

Romans 2:14-15........
"For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves. Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another".

This tells us that God can and will judge the heathen by His own conscience. Some people think that because the heathen do not have the revelation of God that they will escape the judgment of God.

But the fact is that they are not living up to the light they have. God will judge them on that basis.

Hello Major and crossnote, this is what I was waiting for, and Major did a great job of explaining it all for us

While the eternal destination of us all will be decided on the basis of a person's response (positive or negative) to the Gospel, it seems to me that it is our works that will further determine the rewards (or the lack thereof) that will be given to each saint at the Bema Seat Judgment, as well the extent of judgment/condemnation that God will levy against the individual reprobate at the Great White Throne Judgement.

Also, I don't believe that God's justice can truly be satisfied in any other way (for example, Hitler, Stalin, and others who chose to commit such horrible/sinful acts/atrocities, against both God and their fellow man, during their lives here ~must~ receive a harsher judgment than most .. cf Matthew 7:22-23, or I do not believe "justice" would truly be served).

Thoughts on that?

Thanks

--Papa Smurf

 

[Major]

Hello Major and crossnote, this is what I was waiting for, and Major did a great job of explaining it all for us

While the eternal destination of us all will be decided on the basis of a person's response (positive or negative) to the Gospel, it seems to me that it is our works that will further determine the rewards (or the lack thereof) that will be given to each saint at the Bema Seat Judgment, as well the extent of judgment/condemnation that God will levy against the individual reprobate at the Great White Throne Judgement.

Also, I don't believe that God's justice can truly be satisfied in any other way (for example, Hitler, Stalin, and others who chose to commit such horrible/sinful acts/atrocities, against both God and their fellow man, during their lives here ~must~ receive a harsher judgment than most .. cf Matthew 7:22-23, or I do not believe "justice" would truly be served).

Thoughts on that?

Thanks

--Papa Smurf

Yes brother Papa. You are correct. We are saved by faith alone and we are called to share the Gospel and when we do there awaits a Crown or a Reward for us at the Bema Seat or the Judgment Seat of Christ.

Matthew 5:11-12 ........
"Blessed are you when others revile you and persecute you and utter all kinds of evil against you falsely on my account. Rejoice and be glad, for your reward is great in Heaven, for so they persecuted the prophets who were before you."
Matthew 16:27 ...........
"For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father's glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what they have done."

Thoughts?????

Well, I am a believer in and have taught for many years that there will be varying degrees of punishment in the Lake of Fire.

Please note before we have someone argue the point..........I fully agree that the Bible does not expressly state that a person's punishment in Hell is based on the seriousness of his or her sins. However, the premise is implied in several places.
To ME, this has always answered the question of the man on the deserted island who never heard the gospel. Will he go to hell? YES!!!
But Is his punishment in hell the same as Hitler............NO I DO NOT THINK SO!

Matthew 10:15........
"Truly, I say to you, it will be more bearable on the day of judgment for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah than for that town."

Matthew 11:23-24.....
"And you, Capernaum, will you be exalted to Heaven? You will be brought down to Hades. For if the mighty works done in you had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day. But I tell you that it will be more tolerable on the day of judgment for the land of Sodom than for you."

Luke 10:13-14........
"Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the mighty works done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago, sitting in sackcloth and ashes. But it will be more bearable in the judgment for Tyre and Sidon than for you."

Hebrews 10:29 ......
"How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has trampled underfoot the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace?

The following verses seem to indicate that people who are given greater knowledge of the truth have greater responsibility, and likewise, more severe punishment than those who are ignorant or uninformed:

Luke 12:47-48.......
"And a servant who knows what the master wants, but isn't prepared and doesn't carry out those instructions, will be severely punished. But someone who does not know, and then does something wrong, will be punished only lightly. When someone has been given much, much will be required in return; and when someone has been entrusted with much, even more will be required."

Luke 20:46-47.........
"Beware of these teachers of religious law! For they like to parade around in flowing robes and love to receive respectful greetings as they walk in the marketplaces. And how they love the seats of honor in the synagogues and the head table at banquets. Yet they shamelessly cheat widows out of their property and then pretend to be pious by making long prayers in public. Because of this, they will be severely punished."

James 3:1..........
"Not many of you should become teachers, my brothers, for you know that we who teach will be judged with greater strictness."

Now......what are your thoughts on MY thoughts??????????

 

[Papa Smurf]

Finally, I also believe that passages like this (Romans 2:12-16) help us understand why preborn babies, infants, toddlers etc., all who die as such, that is, will end up living out eternity in God's presence (even though they never came to saving faith in Him).

I say this because of what the Bible teaches us in places like Romans 2:12-16, that God's final judgment and condemnation of unbelievers will be based upon what they both know and understand of the "law" (not what they do NOT know and/or understand), even if the only "law" that they possess (know/understand) is the law that was written in their hearts by God from birth.

Preborn babies/infants/toddlers are incapable of knowing and understanding the "law", even the basic one that is written upon their hearts, therefore, I do not believe that there is a basis for God to judge and condemn them to Hell.

Some believe/teach that God will judge and condemn these little ones (who die) on the basis of their fallen "nature" alone (since there is no other basis for it in their case), but the Bible never tells us that God will use that (our "nature") as the basis for His judgment (of anyone), does it?

As above, I would appreciate knowing your thoughts about this topic too.

God bless you

--Papa Smurf
p.s. - I'm sure that the RCC's "Limbo" was the result of such reasoning, but I believe it to be faulty reasoning, even though I understand why they went that way. I'm also glad to see that the idea/doctrine of "Limbo" seems to be passing away from RC thought, as it is rarely, if ever, spoken of by the RCC anymore.

 

[Papa Smurf]

Now......what are your thoughts on MY thoughts??????????

I agree with them

 

[crossnote]

Also, I don't believe that God's justice can truly be satisfied in any other way (for example, Hitler, Stalin, and others who chose to commit such horrible/sinful acts/atrocities, against both God and their fellow man, during their lives here ~must~ receive a harsher judgment than most .. cf Matthew 7:22-23, or I do not believe "justice" would truly be served).

Papa Smurf, by 'any other way', I take it you mean Through the death of Christ?
Otherwise I don't see 'justice being served regardless of the degree or duration of punishment.
When it comes to sin, it is against God's Holiness and the only One and/or thing that will satisfy God's Justice is the Sacrifice of His Son....IMHO.