Physical Ailments vs Martyrdom/Torture?

bobinfaith said:
Good morning, Major;

This has been a good thread that has brought about many interesting convictions on the subject. We can thank crossnote for that! lol!

Thank you for your post and well said.

I'll leave your BR549 in your PM inbox.

😎 👍!!!

​

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I have done my best in trying to train him on the right questions to ask all of us! He has come a long way and is doing great! ;););)
 
Major said:
You see brother, for love to be proved genuine, God gave Adam and Eve and all succeeding people the freedom to choose. We can choose to love or not to love, to obey God or not to obey Him, to do good or evil. One of the most profound doctrines to grasp is the Freedom of Choice!
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Adam and Eve, yes, had free will, but all succeeding people? I don't believe so, because...
1Jn5:19 ESV
We know that we are from God, and the whole world lies in the power of the evil one.
ESV Eph 2:1-3
And you were dead in the trespasses and sins [2] in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience- [3] among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.
ESV Rom 6:17
But thanks be to God, that you who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which you were committed,
ESV Jn 8:34
Jesus answered them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who practices sin is a slave to sin.
ESV Rom 3:9-11
What then? Are we Jews any better off? No, not at all. For we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin, [10] as it is written: "None is righteous, no, not one; [11] no one understands; no one seeks for God.

I didn't mean this thread to become a discussion unfree will or no but rather physical ailments versus martyrdom/torture. I was thinking more of the death of Voddie Bockham (ailments) and Charlie Kirk (martyrdom).
I guess it was my fault for introducing the question..."Do you believe God could have prevented satan from entering the Garden in the first place?", which essentially invited the free will thingy.
 
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crossnote said:
physical ailments versus martyrdom/torture.
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i dont think we will ever know the answer. we know alignments sickness comes from the fall.. ( the Big question is why should we suffer as per results for adam and eves transgression in the garden .. why did my mom have Alzheimer's and my dad parkision .. why is there evil all through out the world. family member shot in cold blood . you find the answer let me know
 
crossnote said:
Adam and Eve, yes, had free will, but all succeeding people? I don't believe so, because...
1Jn5:19 ESV
We know that we are from God, and the whole world lies in the power of the evil one.
ESV Eph 2:1-3
And you were dead in the trespasses and sins [2] in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience- [3] among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.
ESV Rom 6:17
But thanks be to God, that you who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which you were committed,
ESV Jn 8:34
Jesus answered them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who practices sin is a slave to sin.
ESV Rom 3:9-11
What then? Are we Jews any better off? No, not at all. For we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin, [10] as it is written: "None is righteous, no, not one; [11] no one understands; no one seeks for God.

I didn't mean this thread to become a discussion unfree will or no but rather physical ailments versus martyrdom/torture. I was thinking more of the death of Voddie Bockham (ailments) and Charlie Kirk (martyrdom).
I guess it was my fault for introducing the question..."Do you believe God could have prevented satan from entering the Garden in the first place?", which essentially invited the free will thingy.
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Yes.....it is your fault!

Not only Adam and Eve but We all have the freedom to choose my dear brother. Free will is the ability to make choices that are not coerced. It is the ability to act at one’s own discretion, according to one’s desires. It is a voluntary choice, not one that is forced or restricted by a threat or by force.

Unbelievers have free will because they have the free choice to be able to do whatever they desire to do. But their desires will be consistent with their fallen natures. This is why unbelievers do not have the ability to not sin. They are perfectly free to choose to behave in a manner consistent with their fallenness. No one is forcing them to choose to rebel against God. No one is forcing them to sin. They sin on their own and act in a manner that is consistent with their fallenness.

Adam had both free will and an unfallen nature. He was not a slave of sin, nor was he dead in his sins. No one forced him to sin. He freely chose to rebel against God.

We all have inherited Adams fallen nature and we have the ability to NOT sin by making the right choices.
 
Major said:
Another well thought out question.

I can only give you what understand and the bottom line is that the Bible doesn’t describe in detail the glorified bodies we will receive in heaven. However, what we do know is that they will be like that of Jesus’ resurrected body.

Our immortal glorified bodies will be imperishable, honorable, and powerful. Our new bodies will no longer be “natural” bodies, subject to decay and death; we will live in “victory over sin and death,” won by Christ on our behalf as seen in 1 Corth. 15:57.

So we know that Adam and Eve had failures and disappointment and they died physicaly so I would say that our glorified bodies will be much superior to them.
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Which would confirm then to us that the Fall itself God would use in the end to bring even more honor and glory to Himself via how the end state shall be superior to the garden one
 
forgiven61 said:
i dont think we will ever know the answer. we know alignments sickness comes from the fall.. ( the Big question is why should we suffer as per results for adam and eves transgression in the garden .. why did my mom have Alzheimer's and my dad parkision .. why is there evil all through out the world. family member shot in cold blood . you find the answer let me know
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Adam was the head of the entire human race before the Lord, and He had a perfect environment, and was created with sinless humanity, so as our head, Adam was in the best possible position to pass his trial, but he failed miserable, and we are all then found in Him until born again, and receive the same cursing from God he did in the Fall, which included diseases, sickness etc
 
Major said:
Yes.....it is your fault!

Not only Adam and Eve but We all have the freedom to choose my dear brother. Free will is the ability to make choices that are not coerced. It is the ability to act at one’s own discretion, according to one’s desires. It is a voluntary choice, not one that is forced or restricted by a threat or by force.

Unbelievers have free will because they have the free choice to be able to do whatever they desire to do. But their desires will be consistent with their fallen natures. This is why unbelievers do not have the ability to not sin. They are perfectly free to choose to behave in a manner consistent with their fallenness. No one is forcing them to choose to rebel against God. No one is forcing them to sin. They sin on their own and act in a manner that is consistent with their fallenness.

Adam had both free will and an unfallen nature. He was not a slave of sin, nor was he dead in his sins. No one forced him to sin. He freely chose to rebel against God.

We all have inherited Adams fallen nature and we have the ability to NOT sin by making the right choices.
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Sorry, but this topic is to be on Physical Ailments vs Martyrdom/Torture, not freewill, sorry
 
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crossnote said:
Why? you'd have to ask God...

Romans 5:12 ESV
Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned-
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i agree and i know what the word says but i am asking the question why did it come to us. when we didn't commit the original sin

Why? you'd have to ask God...
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thus was my point all along ---- to your question some things we will never know
 
forgiven61 said:
i agree and i know what the word says but i am asking the question why did it come to us. when we didn't commit the original sin




thus was my point all along ---- to your question some things we will never know
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As was stated by crossnote from Romans 5:12 from the Bible we actually do know why..................
'“Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, so also death was passed on to all men, because all sinned”.

That BIBLE doctrine is called “original sin,” and it teaches us that every person inherits not only a sinful nature but also the legal ramifications of the first human rebellion.

The key principle in understanding why all suffer because of Adam’s sin is the idea of “federal headship.”

Adam is portrayed in Scripture as the representative for all of humanity. When Adam fell, all who would descend from him shared in the effects of that fall. The ancient genealogies in Genesis show how that every human being (except Christ, uniquely conceived) is ultimately descended from Adam.

So then the next question will be.....Is this the Holy Justice of God??......YES !
God’s justice is always consistent with mercy. The very same principle of “one man representing many” opens the door for redemption through Christ. Thus, what may initially seem unfair in Adam’s representation becomes the means by which God offers undeserved grace in Christ’s representation of believers.

I hope this helps you.
 
Major said:
As was stated by crossnote from Romans 5:12 from the Bible we actually do know why..................
'“Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, so also death was passed on to all men, because all sinned”.

That BIBLE doctrine is called “original sin,” and it teaches us that every person inherits not only a sinful nature but also the legal ramifications of the first human rebellion.

The key principle in understanding why all suffer because of Adam’s sin is the idea of “federal headship.”

Adam is portrayed in Scripture as the representative for all of humanity. When Adam fell, all who would descend from him shared in the effects of that fall. The ancient genealogies in Genesis show how that every human being (except Christ, uniquely conceived) is ultimately descended from Adam.

So then the next question will be.....Is this the Holy Justice of God??......YES !
God’s justice is always consistent with mercy. The very same principle of “one man representing many” opens the door for redemption through Christ. Thus, what may initially seem unfair in Adam’s representation becomes the means by which God offers undeserved grace in Christ’s representation of believers.

I hope this helps you.
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i am more than aware of what scriptures read that was not my point in a lack of understanding. this entire post has turned to a rabbits chase . nothing wring with that i chase them myself
 
there is nothing confusing in this post questions was asked and i answered with a question .. in reply i said there a things we will never fully understand
 
Major said:
As was stated by crossnote from Romans 5:12 from the Bible we actually do know why..................
'“Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, so also death was passed on to all men, because all sinned”.

That BIBLE doctrine is called “original sin,” and it teaches us that every person inherits not only a sinful nature but also the legal ramifications of the first human rebellion.

The key principle in understanding why all suffer because of Adam’s sin is the idea of “federal headship.”

Adam is portrayed in Scripture as the representative for all of humanity. When Adam fell, all who would descend from him shared in the effects of that fall. The ancient genealogies in Genesis show how that every human being (except Christ, uniquely conceived) is ultimately descended from Adam.

So then the next question will be.....Is this the Holy Justice of God??......YES !
God’s justice is always consistent with mercy. The very same principle of “one man representing many” opens the door for redemption through Christ. Thus, what may initially seem unfair in Adam’s representation becomes the means by which God offers undeserved grace in Christ’s representation of believers.

I hope this helps you.
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Adam is seen as the head over all lost sinners, while Jesus is the Head over all saved saints
 
forgiven61 said:
i am more than aware of what scriptures read that was not my point in a lack of understanding. this entire post has turned to a rabbits chase . nothing wring with that i chase them myself
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But you are the one who asked the questions arent you when YOU asked..........
"i agree and i know what the word says but i am asking the question why did it come to us. when we didn't commit the original sin".

As stated for you, A key principle in understanding why all suffer because of Adam’s sin is the idea of “federal headship.”

Adam is portrayed in Scripture as the representative for humanity. We "ALL" of humanity was represented in him. When Adam fell, all who would descend from him shared in the effects of that fall.

If you miss that doctrinal concept you will miss the reason why we are all saved by faith in Christ who came to remove the curse of death that came through Adam.
 
Major said:
But you are the one who asked the questions arent you when YOU asked..........
"i agree and i know what the word says but i am asking the question why did it come to us. when we didn't commit the original sin"
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i didn't come to you.. your making a ant hill into a mountain. cross asked a question in return i answered by asking a question. .. let me clarify so as there is no more confusion.. i have not missed any doctrinal point .. i am more than aware sin came through the fall.. i also know righteousness comes through the cross of Christ .. without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sins... yours mine whosoever.

please do not mistake me as a novice . do i have the amount of study time as you? obviously not you been in the race longer than me.

never the less i know in whom i have believed. your assuming things that are not so.. i hope this clarifies your misconception
 
forgiven61 said:
i didn't come to you.. your making a ant hill into a mountain. cross asked a question in return i answered by asking a question. .. let me clarify so as there is no more confusion.. i have not missed any doctrinal point .. i am more than aware sin came through the fall.. i also know righteousness comes through the cross of Christ .. without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sins... yours mine whosoever.

please do not mistake me as a novice . do i have the amount of study time as you? obviously not you been in the race longer than me.

never the less i know in whom i have believed. your assuming things that are not so.. i hope this clarifies your misconception
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Adam faid his testing before god, and all of us are in Him, so got same judgement, while Jesus "passed", and all of us now in Him have received justification
 
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