Being Protestant

[cocoa]

The problem with spectacular worship services and those that produce spiritual and emotional "highs" is that those activities do not glorify God and in fact are not worship at all. Those activities are rock and roll concerts and those that attend are always searching for that next emotional high

Yes, I agree. My family and I often visit the church that my in-laws attend (Wesleyan non-denominational) and the service is very emotional and something about the repetitive nature of worship songs seems stir people up.

I think the danger is equating the presence of God to that emotional high you mentioned. There is lots of talks of feeling God's presence or inviting the Holy Spirit to come into the sanctuary. Isnt the Holy Spirit already present in a room full of believers?

 

[YeshuaFan]

Yes, I agree. My family and I often visit the church that my in-laws attend (Wesleyan non-denominational) and the service is very emotional and something about the repetitive nature of worship songs seems stir people up.

I think the danger is equating the presence of God to that emotional high you mentioned. There is lots of talks of feeling God's presence or inviting the Holy Spirit to come into the sanctuary. Isnt the Holy Spirit already present in a room full of believers?

well, the Holy Spirit did inspire to us 'be still, and know that I am God"

 

[YeshuaFan]

So.... After some research... I discovered that this little Lutheran church I planned on attending on Sunday is part of/affiliated with ELCIC ( Evangelical Lutheran Church in Canada )... My area is the Northern region and is called the Eastern Synod.

The Bishop for this synod is a woman... and they embrace inclusivity of alternative lifestyles.

Suffice to say.... I shall NOT be attending this church on Sunday.

I rest my case that here in Canada.... finding a biblical church is next to impossible.

Here is some help fro you for finding a safe church to attend up there in ole canada
In Canada, several regional associations and online directories list Reformed Baptist churches across the country. Many of these churches subscribe to the 1689 London Baptist Confession of Faith.

Here are some examples of Reformed Baptist churches and associations in Canada, organized by region:

Western Canada

• Association of Reformed Baptist Churches in Western Canada (ARBCWC): This association provides a directory of its member churches in the region.
  • Grace Family Reformed Baptist Church (Medicine Hat, AB).
  • Grace Fellowship Church (Ponoka, AB).
  • Free Grace Baptist Church (Chilliwack, BC).
  • Sovereign Grace Fellowship (Prince George, BC).
  • Surrey Reformed Baptist Church (Surrey, BC).
  • Trinity Reformed Baptist Church (Armstrong, BC).
    • Knox Baptist Church (Calgary, AB): Planted with the support of a church in Winnipeg.

Central Canada

• Covenant Baptist Church (Toronto, ON): A confessional Reformed Baptist church meeting on Sundays.
• Grace Baptist Church (Ottawa, ON).
• New City Baptist Church (Toronto, ON).
• Sovereign Grace Family Church (Belleville, ON).

Eastern Canada

• Halifax Reformed Baptist: This church exists for the glory of God and meets for worship and fellowship.
• Grace Baptist Church (Lennox, New Brunswick).
• Providence Christian Church (Riverview, New Brunswick).
• Trinity Baptist Church (Quispamsis, New Brunswick).

Other directories

• The Reformed Reader: Maintains an international directory of Reformed Baptist churches, with a dedicated section for Canada.
• Reformed Baptist Network: Features a searchable church directory that includes congregations in Canada.
• Founders Church Search: Lists various churches, including Reformed Baptist congregations, in Canada

 

[Major]

Yes, I agree. My family and I often visit the church that my in-laws attend (Wesleyan non-denominational) and the service is very emotional and something about the repetitive nature of worship songs seems stir people up.

I think the danger is equating the presence of God to that emotional high you mentioned. There is lots of talks of feeling God's presence or inviting the Holy Spirit to come into the sanctuary. Isnt the Holy Spirit already present in a room full of believers?

Agreed.

There is a reason for the repetitive (Contemporary or as some call it- Praise & Worship) kind of songs that are song at Christian worship and Church gatherings.

I have over the years done a lot of work on this topic. Some of you will say that I am Old Fashioned you are 100% correct about that!!!!!

Now for the rest of the story. A lot of us here are of an age to remember classic songs like Amazing Grace, Just as I Am, The Old Rugged Cross, and most of the time we knew the lyrics from having song them over and over. THAT is not repetitional singing.

"Repetitional' singing is what has become the normal style in Church these days and it is where a rhythmic beat of music is played and the church stands for 15 minutes raising ther hands and waving to the ceiling and repeats the same lyrics over and over that the musical beat. It is in fact a style of CHANTING!
OK then......To chant is to speak or sing rhythmically, in words or sounds.
There is NO substance to the lyrics and the response is simply to the rhythm of the music. This is done the set the mood for what comes next which is the sermon.
Folks.........Moods in worship should be awakened and sustained primarily by truth, assisted by music — not by music with a little truth thrown in to justify the singing.

For example, chanting in order to appease God by vain repetitions or empty phrases is wrong. Chanting in order to induce a trance-like state is wrong. Chanting in order to gain the approval of men or to appear righteous is wrong.

Chanting is driving force in Yoga, Buddhism, TM, and Native American worship rituals. Of course, the words and the motives for chanting in pagan religions are unbiblical. Chanting used to connect the human soul to evil spirits is harmful.

 

[YeshuaFan]

Agreed.

There is a reason for the repetitive (Contemporary or as some call it- Praise & Worship) kind of songs that are song at Christian worship and Church gatherings.

I have over the years done a lot of work on this topic. Some of you will say that I am Old Fashioned you are 100% correct about that!!!!!

Now for the rest of the story. A lot of us here are of an age to remember classic songs like Amazing Grace, Just as I Am, The Old Rugged Cross, and most of the time we knew the lyrics from having song them over and over. THAT is not repetitional singing.

"Repetitional' singing is what has become the normal style in Church these days and it is where a rhythmic beat of music is played and the church stands for 15 minutes raising ther hands and waving to the ceiling and repeats the same lyrics over and over that the musical beat. It is in fact a style of CHANTING!
OK then......To chant is to speak or sing rhythmically, in words or sounds.
There is NO substance to the lyrics and the response is simply to the rhythm of the music. This is done the set the mood for what comes next which is the sermon.
Folks.........Moods in worship should be awakened and sustained primarily by truth, assisted by music — not by music with a little truth thrown in to justify the singing.

For example, chanting in order to appease God by vain repetitions or empty phrases is wrong. Chanting in order to induce a trance-like state is wrong. Chanting in order to gain the approval of men or to appear righteous is wrong.

Chanting is driving force in Yoga, Buddhism, TM, and Native American worship rituals. Of course, the words and the motives for chanting in pagan religions are unbiblical. Chanting used to connect the human soul to evil spirits is harmful.

That part about chanting reminded me of while in college. had a good friend of mine Andy get really into TM, and I was recently saved, but warned him about the dangers in "meditation". One night, he came running to my door, banging loudly, as as he walked into room, stated taht he had a scary moment while deep in trance and saw strange beings and feeling of being attacked, and told him was demonic, and shared with him about Jesus. I do not know if ever was saved, but he did say would take my advise and cease TM mediation from then on

 

[bobinfaith]

So.... After some research... I discovered that this little Lutheran church I planned on attending on Sunday is part of/affiliated with ELCIC ( Evangelical Lutheran Church in Canada )... My area is the Northern region and is called the Eastern Synod. The Bishop for this synod is a woman... and they embrace inclusivity of alternative lifestyles. Suffice to say.... I shall NOT be attending this church on Sunday. I rest my case that here in Canada.... finding a biblical church is next to impossible.

Yes, I agree. My family and I often visit the church that my in-laws attend (Wesleyan non-denominational) and the service is very emotional and something about the repetitive nature of worship songs seems stir people up. I think the danger is equating the presence of God to that emotional high you mentioned. There is lots of talks of feeling God's presence or inviting the Holy Spirit to come into the sanctuary. Isnt the Holy Spirit already present in a room full of believers?

Agreed. There is a reason for the repetitive (Contemporary or as some call it- Praise & Worship) kind of songs that are song at Christian worship and Church gatherings. I have over the years done a lot of work on this topic. Some of you will say that I am Old Fashioned you are 100% correct about that!!!!! Now for the rest of the story. A lot of us here are of an age to remember classic songs like Amazing Grace, Just as I Am, The Old Rugged Cross, and most of the time we knew the lyrics from having song them over and over. THAT is not repetitional singing.
"Repetitional' singing is what has become the normal style in Church these days and it is where a rhythmic beat of music is played and the church stands for 15 minutes raising ther hands and waving to the ceiling and repeats the same lyrics over and over that the musical beat. It is in fact a style of CHANTING! OK then......To chant is to speak or sing rhythmically, in words or sounds. There is NO substance to the lyrics and the response is simply to the rhythm of the music. This is done the set the mood for what comes next which is the sermon. Folks.........Moods in worship should be awakened and sustained primarily by truth, assisted by music — not by music with a little truth thrown in to justify the singing. For example, chanting in order to appease God by vain repetitions or empty phrases is wrong. Chanting in order to induce a trance-like state is wrong. Chanting in order to gain the approval of men or to appear righteous is wrong. Chanting is driving force in Yoga, Buddhism, TM, and Native American worship rituals. Of course, the words and the motives for chanting in pagan religions are unbiblical. Chanting used to connect the human soul to evil spirits is harmful.

Hello In Awe of Him, Cocoa and Major;

I read and reread this topic, Being Protestant, and after 4 pages, unless it's just conversation then it's all good.

I hope the Churches we are worshiping is exactly that, worshiping God, receiving the message and participating in the overall flow of the worship service. This should trump the many constructive criticisms that is being read here.

I'm sorry, In Awe of Him, that you were so close to attending this Lutheran Church. What I find somewhat amusing is the long name for the Church, affiliated with the ELCIC, with the Northern region location, called the Eastern Synod then finally Church. After all that, you decided not to visit for reasons I understand and agree with wholly.

Canada has many Churches that YushuaFan shared. The Pastor who succeeded me back in 2022 is from Surry, CAN and He attended Canadian Southern Baptist Seminary. I've asked him to prayerfully recommend a small, conservative Church in your area for you to consider visiting.

Major, I want to interject on your good post about the music whether, singing repetitively, chanting, or mumbling words (for those who are bored with the same songs) is not worship. Worship in song to God is to be authentic, transparent from the heart. When God hears our worship whether alone or gathered together, He inhabits our praises.

Psalm 22:23, 23 You who fear the Lord, praise Him! All you descendants of Jacob, glorify Him, And fear Him, all you offspring of Israel! - NKJV

Psalm 150, 1 Praise God in his sanctuary; praise him in his mighty heavens. 2 Praise him for his acts of power; praise him for his surpassing greatness. 3 Praise him with the sounding of the trumpet, praise him with the harp and lyre, 4 praise him with timbrel and dancing, praise him with the strings and pipe, 5 praise him with the clash of cymbals, praise him with resounding cymbals. 6 Let everything that has breath praise the Lord. Praise the Lord. - NIV

Worshiping at Church is not because of the flavor, but where God has called each one of us to worship, serve and offer our gifts of service that will bring Him glory.

Our Churches where we serve may bless us immensely but within our congregations there is much imperfect, continuous work to be done.

God bless everyone.

Bob

 

[In Awe of Him]

WOW.... You guys had fun while I was at work.

I am exhausted... so forgive me for not responding to the plethora of comments in my absence.

I will however make a few comments in a general form.

The two churches I attended outside of the Catholic church were Evangelical in nature.
The worship was very much like has been described by Cocoa and Major and I have to disagree with both your assessments.

I think WORSHIP is a matter of the heart... it is a very intimate thing and it is NOT standing in a pew reading a hymnal for the sake of "sticking"
to the old time hymns.... while rejecting the newer WORSHIP music that is available today. Style of Worship is choice.... but so many Christians have made it an ISSUE. ANY PRAISE to GOD is a GOOD THING... and if our hearts are right before GOD... that WORSHIP Is PLEASING to HIM.

How are we going to WORSHIP in HEAVEN??? We are going to be flat on our faces in the Throne Room... WE will be PRAISING... SHOUTING.... WEEPING with JOY... We are going to be repeating HOLY... HOLY... HOLY are YOU... LORD GOD... ALMIGHTY.
WE are going to come apart and melt with AWE of HIS HOLINESS.... The worship of which has been spoken about with regards to EMOTION and REPETITIVE words is NOT a FAIR criticism...in my opinion.

I have attended Worship nights that were so INTENSELY beautiful and YES.... I will even state that I felt the PRESENCE of GOD.
I'm not sure what is expected when you have a group of believers praising GOD... I would hope that the fragrance of Worship would be SWEET PERFUME to FATHER. NO ONE Is going to take away my style or love of contemporary WORSHIP.

As for church.... I am finished with my "SEEKING"... I am basically working a full 4 day week.... and in the next month... I will be meeting for a Sunday bible study with my boss and her husband.
I have the forums of which I have long called my CHURCH... and I have a buffet of sound doctrine coming into my heart EVERY SINGLE DAY.

THAT Is good enough for me.

 

[LearningToLetGo]

Prayer is intimate and each prays in their own way. I, for example, prefer a quiet church, outside of service hours, a few people lighting candles and praying in pews. Service itself I find chaotic and confusing, formulaic and filled with ritual.

 

[forgiven61]

"Repetitional' singing is what has become the normal style in Church these days and it is where a rhythmic beat of music is played and the church stands for 15 minutes raising ther hands and waving to the ceiling and repeats the same lyrics over and over that the musical beat. It is in fact a style of CHANTING!
OK then......To chant is to speak or sing rhythmically, in words or sounds.
There is NO substance to the lyrics and the response is simply to the rhythm of the music. This is done the set the mood for what comes next which is the sermon.
Folks.........Moods in worship should be awakened and sustained primarily by truth, assisted by music — not by music with a little truth thrown in to justify the singing.

for the most i agree but if they have solid Bible preaching . then it needs be let be. i dont mind contemporary music there are many dedicated artist . if people are true blue let it be

 

[In Awe of Him]

"Repetitional' singing is what has become the normal style in Church these days and it is where a rhythmic beat of music is played and the church stands for 15 minutes raising ther hands and waving to the ceiling and repeats the same lyrics over and over that the musical beat. It is in fact a style of CHANTING!
OK then......To chant is to speak or sing rhythmically, in words or sounds.
There is NO substance to the lyrics and the response is simply to the rhythm of the music. This is done the set the mood for what comes next which is the sermon.
Folks.........Moods in worship should be awakened and sustained primarily by truth, assisted by music — not by music with a little truth thrown in to justify the singing.

Ha..... This is the first time I have to absolutely DISAGREE with your assessment.

Worship is NOT in competition with TRUTH and it is NOT some mystical hypnotism that places people in an altered state. It is in TRUE FORM .. ADORATION to ALMIGHTY GOD.... How on earth can someone say... it's too emotional??? Healing takes place... hearts are renewed and refreshed.
The churches that I have attended... had at least ONE hour of Worship before the service started. By the time the sermon began... People were QUIET in their spirits. They placed all their worries and concerns... all their distractions were left at the door... and they had the ability to enter into TEACHING.

I really do not understand those who are against an intimate Worship session. I dare anyone NOT to fall apart when they are in the presence of the Lord. EMOTIONAL????? WOW.... You are talking about ALMIGHTY GOD.... How can one describe WORSHIP in those negative tones??

And the four living creatures, each one of them having six wings, are full of eyes all over and within [underneath their wings]; and day and night they never stop saying, “Holy, holy, holy [is the] Lord God, the Almighty [the Omnipotent, the Ruler of all], who was and who is and who is to come [the unchanging, eternal God].” Revelation 4:8

I am going to post an example of my type of Worship... THIS WORSHIP has FED me... kept me SANE... and protected me from absolutely free falling into the endless pit of despair so many times ( BEFORE my healing occurred ). Corporate Worship is POWERFUL.

I think people do not understand the proper definition of Worship. It is not trying to bring GOD down to our level... It is an invitation to enter the THRONE ROOM of GRACE and PURELY ADORE GOD, ALMIGHTY.

I love you Major. You know this. I am ok to disagree with you. I will even send you a love offering.... HAHA.

 

[Major]

I go one step further, as I am thankful am a Baptist, as while no church has perfect theology and doctrines, think Baptists tend to hold to the essentials in a very biblical manner

Yes sir.

Ha..... This is the first time I have to absolutely DISAGREE with your assessment.

Worship is NOT in competition with TRUTH and it is NOT some mystical hypnotism that places people in an altered state. It is in TRUE FORM .. ADORATION to ALMIGHTY GOD.... How on earth can someone say... it's too emotional??? Healing takes place... hearts are renewed and refreshed.
The churches that I have attended... had at least ONE hour of Worship before the service started. By the time the sermon began... People were QUIET in their spirits. They placed all their worries and concerns... all their distractions were left at the door... and they had the ability to enter into TEACHING.

I really do not understand those who are against an intimate Worship session. I dare anyone NOT to fall apart when they are in the presence of the Lord. EMOTIONAL????? WOW.... You are talking about ALMIGHTY GOD.... How can one describe WORSHIP in those negative tones??

And the four living creatures, each one of them having six wings, are full of eyes all over and within [underneath their wings]; and day and night they never stop saying, “Holy, holy, holy [is the] Lord God, the Almighty [the Omnipotent, the Ruler of all], who was and who is and who is to come [the unchanging, eternal God].” Revelation 4:8

I am going to post an example of my type of Worship... THIS WORSHIP has FED me... kept me SANE... and protected me from absolutely free falling into the endless pit of despair so many times ( BEFORE my healing occurred ). Corporate Worship is POWERFUL.

I think people do not understand the proper definition of Worship. It is not trying to bring GOD down to our level... It is an invitation to enter the THRONE ROOM of GRACE and PURELY ADORE GOD, ALMIGHTY.

I love you Major. You know this. I am ok to disagree with you. I will even send you a love offering.... HAHA.

It is certainly OK to disagree with me. When someone disagree with me, it does not change my opinion of that person.
I am NOT the final authority and I only gave my personal impressions and thank God we all have the ability to voice our opinions!

What I shared is what I’ve noticed during the praise and worship portion of service at different churches that I’ve visited,
and even ones where I’ve spoken at when conducting revivals.

I think I need to be clear here when I speak of Emotionalism, in the church. I am NOT against be emotional in church.
In fact we should be emotional when the Holy Spirit convicts us and draws us closer to God.

However, what I am talking about is a reaction that is based on a human sentiment or feeling. It is devoid of true worship and holds no real sustaining substance. IT is simply a "fleshly" reaction to an outside stimulus.

Many years ago when we were not saved, most of us at gathered at a nite club or bar or dance club and when a song was played that had that special beat and words we got up and danced and were full of unbridled emotion, jamming to the beat. When the song went off, we were back to mingling and people watching, and by the end of the night could hardly even remember that experience when the song was played.

So fast foreword to today and then in Church we hear a song that has just the right beat or melody, and we react. Some react by clapping wildly, dancing, and falling out in the aisles during upbeat songs. While, when a slower song with a nice melody is played, some might react by crying and/or hugging someone. The reactions might vary widely, but all fall under the category of emotionalism when not done ‘in spirit and in truth’. After the service is over, we go about our lives no different than before, but momentarily relishing that feel-good moment that we had.

The emotionalistic characteristics from the reactions at the night club and at the church are no different, aside from the fact that now, presumably, you are saved.

This example may not apply to you, but I think most reading this can agree that it fits "them."

Now I am actually speaking to all who read these words all over the world, allow me to say that True worship is emotion and reverence to God derived from knowledge of Him, and relationship with Him. As "In awe of him" said correctly----
It is a deeply emotional connection with God that is developed through sound doctrinal training, study of His Word, and a genuine walk with Him. In true worship our emotion is a direct response to our cognitive (intellectually aware) acknowledgment of God and gratefulness for His works in us and in all the earth.

When we are at the place of true worship we should not be reacting to the beat and rhythm of the music or a song.....… but rather we are should reacting to the rhythm and beat of God’s very heart.

 

[YeshuaFan]

Yes sir.

It is certainly OK to disagree with me. When someone disagree with me, it does not change my opinion of that person.
I am NOT the final authority and I only gave my personal impressions and thank God we all have the ability to voice our opinions!

What I shared is what I’ve noticed during the praise and worship portion of service at different churches that I’ve visited,
and even ones where I’ve spoken at when conducting revivals.

I think I need to be clear here when I speak of Emotionalism, in the church. I am NOT against be emotional in church.
In fact we should be emotional when the Holy Spirit convicts us and draws us closer to God.

However, what I am talking about is a reaction that is based on a human sentiment or feeling. It is devoid of true worship and holds no real sustaining substance. IT is simply a "fleshly" reaction to an outside stimulus.

Many years ago when we were not saved, most of us at gathered at a nite club or bar or dance club and when a song was played that had that special beat and words we got up and danced and were full of unbridled emotion, jamming to the beat. When the song went off, we were back to mingling and people watching, and by the end of the night could hardly even remember that experience when the song was played.

So fast foreword to today and then in Church we hear a song that has just the right beat or melody, and we react. Some react by clapping wildly, dancing, and falling out in the aisles during upbeat songs. While, when a slower song with a nice melody is played, some might react by crying and/or hugging someone. The reactions might vary widely, but all fall under the category of emotionalism when not done ‘in spirit and in truth’. After the service is over, we go about our lives no different than before, but momentarily relishing that feel-good moment that we had.

The emotionalistic characteristics from the reactions at the night club and at the church are no different, aside from the fact that now, presumably, you are saved.

This example may not apply to you, but I think most reading this can agree that it fits "them."

Now I am actually speaking to all who read these words all over the world, allow me to say that True worship is emotion and reverence to God derived from knowledge of Him, and relationship with Him. As "In awe of him" said correctly----
It is a deeply emotional connection with God that is developed through sound doctrinal training, study of His Word, and a genuine walk with Him. In true worship our emotion is a direct response to our cognitive (intellectually aware) acknowledgment of God and gratefulness for His works in us and in all the earth.

When we are at the place of true worship we should not be reacting to the beat and rhythm of the music or a song.....… but rather we are should reacting to the rhythm and beat of God’s very heart.

My view on emotioanl worship would be liek in a typically charasmatic service, where the "praise leaders" are repeating same verses all the time, getting louder each pass, and also hamging tongues going off, holy laughter, barking, being "slain by the Spirit" as King david stripped down and let it go to dance and praise the Lord, but was not barking nor running aroound at all 4 legs/arms like a dog

Now the Holy Spirit can have you shout or praise or raise your hands, but its still in an order, not breaking out like saturday night at the club