Annihilationism

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There is ZERO biblical bases for this belief.

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Beware of the devils people, their lies and twisting and half truths are easy to spot.

Did you even watch Ken Bussel's video? Or have you already decided that anyone who holds an opinion different to you is of the devil? Your remarks are more reminiscint of someone on a witch hunt. This is not dialogue. This is just brow beating.


Thank you Ken for posting your youtube video. I will give it some prayerful thought. However I am wondering if my followup comments should be on your youtube channel as discussion on this may not be well received here.
 
If one is eternal and forever, then the other is eternal and forever.

Yes, you are right. Eternal punish-MENT is eternal and lasts forever. But the act of punish-ING does not. Just as eternal salvation lasts forever, but the act of saving does not. Just like eternal redemption lasts forever, but the act of redeeming does not.

Hebrews 5:9 "and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him"

Hebrews 9:12 "he entered once for all into the Holy Place, not with the blood of goats and calves, but with his own blood, thus obtaining eternal redemption. "

Jesus will not be continually in the act of saving and redeeming each and every Christian for all eternity. Salvation and redemption are singular acts whose consequences are final and eternal. The consequence of eternal punishment is destruction, a destruction which is final and eternal.

So there is no difficulty at all understanding Matthew 25:46 from a conditionalist view.
 
I am an evangelical, Jesus loving, Bible believing, Christian pastor. I did a comprehensive sermon on the subject, an exhaustive review of all the scriptural evidence, both Old and New Testament. It's called "The Case for Conditionalism." Here is a link:


Simply put, the handful of proof texts for Eternal Conscious Torment come from parables, prophecies, and apocalyptic visions. The multitude of didactic teaching passages are overwhelmingly clear that the righteous in Christ shall receive eternal life, and the wicked shall perish. If you study the whole Bible on the subject, you will see for yourself that the evidence for conditionalism far outweighs the evidence for ECT.
Dang Ken, me and my wife just watched the video and loved it. I have never seen a stronger argument for Annihilationism. I was kind of leaning towards that belief anyway but my wife is still in shock. THAT is the type of sermon I like. Completely based in Scripture.
 
How many scriptures did I post above about eternal torment and punishment? What?

What me to go back and copy and past them all again for you?

This is where you are in great error saying that those who do not believe in eternal hell do not believe in Eternal life. It means you also believe Jesus is wrong, and that is not a position i would suggest keeping.

And these shall go away into everlasting (Aionous) punishment: but the righteous into life eternal (Aionous).
(Mat 25:46)

if there is eternal life, then there is also eternal punishment. If you want to twist scripture and be confused and make Jesus out to be someone that has no idea what he was talking about, be my guest.

Here is my other post you just missed somehow.
Oh, that was your actual argument?
 
Yes, you are right. Eternal punish-MENT is eternal and lasts forever. But the act of punish-ING does not. Just as eternal salvation lasts forever, but the act of saving does not. Just like eternal redemption lasts forever, but the act of redeeming does not.

Hebrews 5:9 "and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him"

Hebrews 9:12 "he entered once for all into the Holy Place, not with the blood of goats and calves, but with his own blood, thus obtaining eternal redemption. "

Jesus will not be continually in the act of saving and redeeming each and every Christian for all eternity. Salvation and redemption are singular acts whose consequences are final and eternal. The consequence of eternal punishment is destruction, a destruction which is final and eternal.

So there is no difficulty at all understanding Matthew 25:46 from a conditionalist view.

This does not remove Jesus saying in the same Scripture eternal punishment and Eternal life. One is punishment forever, one is life with God forever.

It also does not remove the expression Eis Aion, Aion or Age upon Age without end in the torment mentioned in Revelation.

It does not remove Jesus account of hell giving us what Abraham said, experienced and saw.

We don't remove several scriptures that speak of eternal punishment, and where the fire is never quenched. Just as we don't remove the concept of Eternal life.

We also have no scripture that tells us a spirit can be killed and destroyed, we also know the Greek Word for Destroyed apollumi means to lose, mar, to perish. Jesus said the soul and body will be mared, perish, lost, but he mentioned nothing about the spirit of man. It's also just one scripture folks take out of context being ignorant of how apollumi is used.

You don't take a few scriptures and ignore the rest of the scriptures. You don't remove context of scriptures because you don't want to believe something. Millions are going to hell because they don't want to believe something.

Mat 25:41
Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Angels don't get destroyed and there is a price for rejecting the creator through knowing Christ Jesus. The price is not just some Mercy killing.
 
I really need to listen to the video a second time when I get the chance.

The points made about Sheol and Hades I thought were good. I had discovered previously that they were the same thing when I found a new testament verse quoting an old testament verse but using the word hades where sheol was used.

It was also interesting that Hades, rather than Gehenna, features in the rich man and lazarus.

The most difficult passage Ken tackled was possibly the one about the "smoke of their torment" but I see what he meant about apocalyptic allegory. I plan to make a more detailed study of this when I get the chance.
 
You don't take a few scriptures and ignore the rest of the scriptures. You don't remove context of scriptures because you don't want to believe something.

That is exactly what supporters of ECT do. They come to the Bible with a presupposed belief in an immortal soul and eternal conscious torment, find a handful of passages that seem to support that, and reinterpret all the rest to fit (destroy doesn't mean destroy, perish doesn't mean perish, etc.). The vast majority of scripture teaches plainly that the wicked will be destroyed, they will be consumed, they will perish, cut down like weeds, burnt up like chaff, . The small number of verses you quoted need to be interpreted in light of the majority, not vice versa.

I held a traditional view of hell for 20 years without ever really studying it in depth, just relying on a few passages and proof texts and trusting that the church was right. When I became willing to leave my presuppositions behind, the Bible changed my mind.

Side note: A fire that cannot be quenched is a fire that will completely consume a person. A worm that will not die is a worm that will completely devour a person. These are eternal qualities of the fire and the worm, not qualities of the person.
 
We also have no scripture that tells us a spirit can be killed and destroyed,

Yes we do, Matthew 10:28. And we certainly have no scripture that tells us a human spirit is immortal or eternal or will live forever.

But don't listen to me. Listen to God Himself:

Psalm 2:9
9 You will break them with a rod of iron; you will dash them to pieces like pottery.”

Psalm 37:2
2 for like the grass they will soon wither, like green plants they will soon die away.

Psalm 37:9-10
9 For those who are evil will be destroyed, but those who hope in the Lord will inherit the land. 10 A little while, and the wicked will be no more; though you look for them, they will not be found.

Psalm 37:20
20 But the wicked will perish: Though the Lord’s enemies are like the flowers of the field, they will be consumed, they will go up in smoke.

Psalm 37:34
34 Hope in the Lord and keep his way. He will exalt you to inherit the land; when the wicked are destroyed, you will see it.

Psalm 37:38
38 But transgressors shall be altogether destroyed; the future of the wicked shall be cut off.

Psalm 58:8
8 May they be like a slug that melts away as it moves along, like a stillborn child that never sees the sun.

Psalm 68:2
2 May you blow them away like smoke — as wax melts before the fire, may the wicked perish before God.

Psalm 94:23
23 He will repay them for their sins and destroy them for their wickedness; the Lord our God will destroy them.

Psalm 112:10
10 The wicked will see and be vexed, they will gnash their teeth and waste away; the longings of the wicked will come to nothing.

Proverbs 24:20
20 for the evil have no future; the lamp of the wicked will go out.

Isaiah 13:6
6 Wail, for the day of the Lord is near; as destruction from the Almighty[a] it will come!

Isaiah 14:23
23 “And I will make it a possession of the hedgehog, and pools of water, and I will sweep it with the broom of destruction,” declares the Lord of hosts.

Isaiah 66:24
24 “And they shall go out and look on the dead bodies of the men who have rebelled against me. For their worm shall not die, their fire shall not be quenched, and they shall be an abhorrence to all flesh.”

Malachi 4:1-3
4 “For behold, the day is coming, burning like an oven, when all the arrogant and all evildoers will be stubble. The day that is coming shall set them ablaze, says the Lord of hosts, so that it will leave them neither root nor branch. 2 But for you who fear my name, the sun of righteousness shall rise with healing in its wings. You shall go out leaping like calves from the stall. 3 And you shall tread down the wicked, for they will be ashes under the soles of your feet, on the day when I act, says the Lord of hosts.

Matthew 3:12
12 His winnowing fork is in his hand, and he will clear his threshing floor, gathering his wheat into the barn and burning up the chaff with unquenchable fire.”

Matthew 7:13
13 “Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it.

Matthew 10:28
28 Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

Luke 17:26-30
26 “Just as it was in the days of Noah, so also will it be in the days of the Son of Man. 27 People were eating, drinking, marrying and being given in marriage up to the day Noah entered the ark. Then the flood came and destroyed them all.28 “It was the same in the days of Lot. People were eating and drinking, buying and selling, planting and building. 29 But the day Lot left Sodom, fire and sulfur rained down from heaven and destroyed them all. 30 “It will be just like this on the day the Son of Man is revealed.

John 3:16
16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

John 17:12
12 While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled.

Romans 2:12
12 All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law.

Romans 6:23
23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Romans 9:22
22 What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction?

1 Corinthians 3:17
17 If anyone destroys God’s temple, God will destroy that person; for God’s temple is sacred, and you together are that temple.

Galatians 6:8
8 Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.

Philippians 1:28
28 without being frightened in any way by those who oppose you. This is a sign to them that they will be destroyed, but that you will be saved—and that by God.

Philippians 3:19
19 Their destiny is destruction, their god is their stomach, and their glory is in their shame. Their mind is set on earthly things.

2 Thessalonians 1:9
9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might

Hebrews 10:39
39 But we do not belong to those who shrink back and are destroyed, but to those who have faith and are saved.

Hebrews 10:27
27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.

Hebrews 12:29
29 for our “God is a consuming fire.”

James 1:15
15 Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-
grown, gives birth to death.

James 4:12
12 There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the one who is able to save and destroy. But you—who are you to judge your neighbor?

James 5:3
3 Your gold and silver are corroded. Their corrosion will testify against you and eat your flesh like fire. You have hoarded wealth in the last days.

James 5:5
5 You have lived on earth in luxury and self-indulgence. You have fattened yourselves in the day of slaughter.

James 5:20
20 remember this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of their way will save them from death and cover over a multitude of sins.

2 Peter 2:3
3 In their greed these teachers will exploit you with fabricated stories. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping.

2 Peter 2:6
6 if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly;

2 Peter 2:12
12 But these people blaspheme in matters they do not understand. They are like unreasoning animals, creatures of instinct, born only to be caught and destroyed, and like animals they too will perish.

2 Peter 3:7
7 By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly.

John 3:36
36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them.

Jude 1:7
7 just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire.
 
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Here's an important one I left out... from the NASB:

Isaiah 26:14
14 The dead will not live, the departed spirits will not rise; Therefore You have punished and destroyed them, And You have wiped out all remembrance of them.
 
In the mind of God there is only One Life and that is In Him, in Christ...all else is death and destruction. Now I think some really good points have been made but I do see that some fail to see what God means when He speaks of life and death. The flesh will be and is being destroyed even as we post on this forum. But the Spirit is eternal and is in the life of God. Now understanding when God is speaking of the spirit of man as of Adam and the Spirit that is in man, as from Christ is not a matter of just finding random scriptures and trying to win a debate. Each scripture should be tested as to its intention and context. This is a long drawn out process and takes time and honesty among those who desire to know the truth. I just don't see this issue having the importance as to take the time it would take to correct some of the errors I see on both sides of what has been presented on this thread. I will reconsider some of brother Kens views..I think you make some powerful points and are seeing some things that only the Spirit of God could have shown you.
 
Now understanding when God is speaking of the spirit of man as of Adam and the Spirit that is in man, as from Christ is not a matter of just finding random scriptures and trying to win a debate. Each scripture should be tested as to its intention and context. This is a long drawn out process and takes time and honesty among those who desire to know the truth. I just don't see this issue having the importance as to take the time it would take to correct some of the errors I see on both sides of what has been presented on this thread.
Then why post at all? This is a discussion board, after all.
 
Did you even watch Ken Bussel's video? Or have you already decided that anyone who holds an opinion different to you is of the devil? Your remarks are more reminiscint of someone on a witch hunt. This is not dialogue. This is just brow beating.


Thank you Ken for posting your youtube video. I will give it some prayerful thought. However I am wondering if my followup comments should be on your youtube channel as discussion on this may not be well received here.
Well, I'd like to see your followup comments! If you don't want to post in on the thread then PM me.
 
Are you joking? We have atheist on this forum doing all they can to destroy the faith of the members...and we should be worried about discussing this issue? Come on!

Totally correct!

Discussion is always acceptable, but rudeness and the like are not. Unfortunately this is one of those subjects that will bring out the ugly in some people because they simple have to be right.

Hope I am wrong but..........
 
Conditionalism affirms the reality of hell. And the punishment of hell is eternal in exactly the same way that the gift of life is eternal. The punishment, once given, can never be undone, just as the gift, once given, can never be undone.

Universalism and conditionalism are completely different. Conditionalism is NOT universalism. On conditionalism, the unsaved DO go to hell. And they are destroyed there.

NOPE! The unsaved Do go to hell BUT they are NOT destroyed there.
 
Here's an important one I left out... from the NASB:

Isaiah 26:14
14 The dead will not live, the departed spirits will not rise; Therefore You have punished and destroyed them, And You have wiped out all remembrance of them.

Let's keep it simple and scriptures that pertain to being Eternal punishment or the lack of eternal punishment.

The thing that bothers me is that you have a correct view of hell, but something got in you to move you away from your first confidence. The scriptures warn about this, as a new believe God puts the right things in your heart. It's human reasoning and complicating things that get us off path and into error. We don't need a tone of Greek or Hebrew to understand context of What God said.

We also have to understand that God had to use natural language to describe spiritual things, so we go by context of what is being said.

All scripture have to match, we don't take ones we don't like and make they hyperbole or some parable to fit a doctrine. You as a teacher you will answer for what you told others if your not right.

So scripture talks about the dead going to dust, having no more part under the sun. When the scripture is talking about no more remembrance, no more part, it's talking about here on earth. Man is appointed to die once, then judgement.
Isaiah 26:14
14 The dead will not live, the departed spirits will not rise; Therefore You have punished and destroyed them, And You have wiped out all remembrance of them


The dead will not come back to life: their spirits will not come back to earth; for this cause you have sent destruction on them, so that the memory of them is dead.
(Isa 26:14)

Ecc 9:6 Their love and their hate and their envy are now ended; and they have no longer a part for ever in anything which is done under the sun.

We will deal with a few at a time............ Departed spirits shall not rise or come back to earth is an indication they could if allowed. The wipe out of remembrance always refer to things under the sun, or on earth. There are no such things as Ghost, and no human gets to come back. They die and then judgement.

I said in mine heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that God might manifest them, and that they might see that they themselves are beasts. For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity. All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again. Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?
(Ecc 3:18-21)

All go to dust (body) the spirit of the man who was like a beast goes down, the ones that obeyed go up. It's the body that is destroyed as dust, but there is a spirit man and soul still.
Act 2:27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
Psa 116:3 The sorrows of death compassed me, and the pains of hell gat hold upon me: I found trouble and sorrow.

Hell is a place of sorrow, Jesus went to hell, he was not just destroyed in hell because the Lord brought him back out in victory. Spirits which we are have full consciences in hell as they do with God in heaven.

As I said, you have far to many scripture contradictions to hold on to this doctrine, and because of that you ought to really consider what your telling others.

Do you mind giving some Scriptures or is that your whole argument?

Why don't you actually take the time to read the ones I have given. I have proven Major's point very clearly, and for you to still not get it, really concerns me.
 
Hey guys, I wanted to discuss Annihilationism.

To be clear, I’m not trying to start any argument in this thread. This is a topic that has interested me because when I started to read my Bible I was having trouble understanding where exactly eternal conscious torment was taken from. So, I ended up researching it and found that there was such a belief as Annihilationsim. Now, I’m not saying that I believe this, but I do feel like there is a fair biblical basis for it. What do you guys think?

The truth is that "annihilationism is a very unsound teaching that says the unsaved are extinguished at death or shortly after judgment day.

Rev. 14:1 teaches us that the "smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever and they have no rest day or night".

To accept annihilationism you can already see that a major effort of reconstruction will have done be done with that one verse alone.

To sum up the sound doctrine of eschatology, Jesus is coming personally, unexpectedly, suddenly in the glory of His Father with angels and triumphantly. There is no argument there I would think. If that is not clear to anyone, the book written by Dwight Pentecost, explains this event as well or better than anyone I know of. I recommend "The Things to Come".

Annihilationism really stems from the people who have a real problem believeing that HELL is REAL. I do not like the idea, because I have loved ones who are not saved. BUT we can never allow personal feelings to alter the Word of God so as to make it more acceptable. It is what it is. The rules that govern who goes to heaven and hell are established by God's nature. Things are the way they are because God is the way He is. That makes them unchangeable because God can not change.

Example: FIRE is hot by nature. Fire does not make itself hot; it is hot! That is the nature of fire. If you stuck your hand into a fire to get a hot dog that fell off your stick, you would get burned. You would not get mad at the fire. Fire and your hand are incompatible. They do not do well together. You could wear a glove but that will not make your hand more compatible and it does not change the nature of the fire.

What I am saying??? God is holy by nature and He can not change. Unholy things do not do well with holy things. The only fix to this dilemma was for God to CHANGE MAN. That is why Christ came and died for us. He paved the way for a change in our very nature. We who accept Christ are then made holy (2 Corth. 5:21). That is why we can be called saints.

Unbelievers go to hell because they are incompatible with heaven. They do not go to hell to pay God back. The severity of their sin doesn't send them there. The quantity of their sin doesn't send them there. The problem for them is they are not suited for heaven because they do not have the blood applied to their souls. They have not been cleansed of the sin that makes them unholy!

So much for background. Now "Annililationism" or the sudden destruction or total extermination of the soul.

Cult leader Harold Camping, among others, promotes this pernicious doctrine - in direct contradiction of the words of Christ himself.

Annihilationism has also long infected mainline denominations. In 1995 an Anglican Church doctrinal commission stated that "Hell is not eternal torment" but rather a state of "non-being". The doctrine of eternal punishment has also long been rejected among most mainline Presbyterians, Methodists, and the United Church of Christ.

What does the Bible say????????????

In Hebrews 6:2 we have "eternal judgment." The word "judgment" here is from a Greek word that refers to a condemnatory sentence, aionios being used to teach that this sentence is eternal in that the punishment it prescribes is unending.

In Jude 7 we have lost human beings condemned to the same everlasting fire which has been prepared for Satan and the fallen angels, the latter in verse 6 being reserved for the Great White Throne judgment and the fire prepared for them (Matthew 25:41)....

We come to Revelation 14:9-11 where the unsaved who worship the...Beast...during the Great Tribulation, are said to be tormented, and where it is asserted that the smoke of their torment, that is, the smoke that issues from the cause of their torment, will ascend forever and forever, which means that their torment will be forever and forever. The Greek word translated "torment" was used in a secular document of the examination of slaves in the phrase "they under torture said." Thayer defines the word as follows, "to question by applying torture, to torture, to vex with grievous pains (of body and mind), in the passive sense, to be harassed, distressed." In Revelation 20:10, the eternal torment of Satan is spoken of. Thus, God's Word clearly teaches that the sufferings of the lost will be unending.

Well..........that should get some responses going I should think!
 
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