Apostle to the Gentiles

this is my take all this is what i call gnat straining .. a young adult s.s teacher once told us if it aint salvation threatening then let it alone. we are dealing with opinions which are like noses we all have one . here is a IMO topics like this profits nothing talk about about a censor tos new rule made . :eek:
 
Musicmaster said:
Matthew 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

There's the difference. See that? The Church is under the Gospel of Grace, not the Kingdom Gospel. The Kingdom to come is not for the Church, but rather for Israel.

MM
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MM there has been many false doctrines put forth pertaining to what the kingdom is in the in past 200 yrs just like the one you are proclaiming under the term the gospel of grace for the church and the kingdom gospel being solely for the nation of Israel. It be the two peoples doctrine you are promoting again. I’m not quite sure how you determine this considering we are all saved by the GRACE of the God. But let’s take a closer look at the kingdom, more so the kingdom of God. What actually is it ? We read in Luke 10:: 9-16 and learn that the kingdom of has come unto you. In other words Christ did bring forth the kingdom of God upon earth . Further we read in Luke 17:21 that the kingdom of God now lives within us. IMG_4094.jpegIn other words the Kingdom lives within all of us now. There be only one kingdom for Jew and gentle alike. This is further explored in Colossians chapter 1:13 where the kingdom of God mentioned once more in reference to the church. Perhaps reading from Colossians 1:1-27 for a fuller context . ( V27 To whom God would make known the riches of his glory this mystery among the Gentiles . Which is Christ in you, the hope of glory. ) In other words meaning the kingdom of God has come to Jew and Gentile alike as mentioned in Colossians 1:13. That has always been the understanding of the kingdom of God by the church until recent times. Why would you seek to divide something as beautiful as the kingdom of God ? ❤️
 
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Musicmaster said:
Actually, Paul's ministry to the Gentiles did not begin until about, upwards of about three years after Paul's conversion. He was not trained by the other 12, but by Christ Himself. R. C. Sproul made some interesting observations since he studied, in great detail, the timeframes within the scriptures that are not so readily apparent:

"Paul begins Galatians by saying that he was sent by Christ and the Father, and that the other church leaders agreed with him. In Galatians 1:11–2:10, he expands on these two points.

He begins in verses 11 and 12 by saying that the Gospel he preached was not devised by human wisdom, nor had he received it from the other apostles; rather, he was taught it directly by Jesus Christ Himself. He continues by reminding them that he had been trained in and was fanatically devoted to the erroneous traditions of Judaism. When God called Paul on the Damascus road, he was commissioned to preach the Gospel of Christ.

Paul said that when Christ called him, he did not go to Jerusalem to receive instruction from the apostles. Rather, he retired into Arabia for a time and not until three years later did he go to Jerusalem. Even then, the only apostle he met was Peter, and the only other leader he met was James, the presiding elder of the Jerusalem church." (https://www.ligonier.org/learn/devotionals/the-preparation-of-paul)

If your understanding of Jesus' command for them to go to all the world and preach the Gospel, and that the preaching mentioned was them preaching to Gentiles, then your understanding doesn't seem to match that of the reality that Peter, James and the others were still in Jerusalem years after the ascension of Christ.

Thoughts?

MM
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That be correct Paul’s conversion and apostleship came some yrs later along with his time in Arabia. Actually Paul firstly preached to his own countrymen the Jews for quite a time but turned more fully to the Gentiles as seen in Acts 13: 46 with Israel’s continued rejection of the gospel ( then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, it was necessary that the word of God should have first been to you: but seeing you put it from you , and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, Lo, we turn to the Gentiles. Even though Israel would cease to exist as a nation within in a few decades that never stopped Paul from preaching the gospel to Jew or Gentile alike. As Paul writes in 1st Corinthians 9:20-23 and unto the Jews I became a Jew and unto the Gentiles I became a gentile. And with the entirety of those verses the conclusion is that Paul became all things to all men in order to win people over to Jesus Christ. IMG_4094.jpegSo MM do explain why nearly all the apostles if not all did eventually preach the gospel to Jew and Gentile alike. It was not solely only Paul but all of the Apostles. The time factor you mentioned fades in significance if that is what you be implying. You must remember the church was almost entirely Jewish to begin with . And yes they are mentioned as the church in Acts chapter 2 and you can also look back further to Matthew 16:18 where Christ says to Peter petros pebble upon this Petra Rock I will build my Church. So the term church was certainly known to Jew and Gentile alike we are all classified under that name all through the New Testament. MM also consider that not only the apostles but also all those other Jews from other nations who heard the good news of Jesus Christ at Pentecost in their own foreign tongue. They took the Christian faith back with them to create churches to the 4 corners of the known world in exceptional time.. So the Church that began as predominantly Jewish every quickly became a universal church for all people. Again I only see many cultures united as one people united as one in the body of Christ as the universal church. One must ask again why destroy something so Beautifully unified as one and divide into two. ❤️
 
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Prim, for the sake of unity, I will back off this topic and lay it by the wayside. My posts must be coming across as contentious and disunifying.

My appologies for any hard feelings or presumed argumentative attitudes on my part. That was not my intent, but perception is 9/10 of the law in forums, as has been observed on other message boards.

I like the mental and spiritual exercises disagreement entails, but some are not edified by such discussions for whatever reasons, so thank you for your thoughts.

MM
 
Musicmaster said:
Prim, for the sake of unity, I will back off this topic and lay it by the wayside. My posts must be coming across as contentious and disunifying.

My appologies for any hard feelings or presumed argumentative attitudes on my part. That was not my intent, but perception is 9/10 of the law in forums, as has been observed on other message boards.

I like the mental and spiritual exercises disagreement entails, but some are not edified by such discussions for whatever reasons, so thank you for your thoughts.

MM
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MM you enjoy having your mind stimulated. I enjoy having my mind very much stimulated in biblical and historical matters too. As to being edified or not edified it really comes down to the matters of biblical truth. Judaism like Rome and Islam all do seek to claim this worldly kingdom as their own. All do seek to be the king of Jerusalem and masters of this world. We should be wary of all such impostors. Do remember our Lord said our kingdom is not this world. We seek a heavenly Jerusalem not an earthly one. We seek a new heavens and a new earth. That is my concern with your thoughts. I give allegiance to none of the above mentioned religions but only to my Lord Jesus Christ. MM Thank you for your thoughts also. Yours Prim
 
I know this is a bit late but I still like to add some thoughts and hopefully bring some clarity.

Here is James 2:21 in the Ampl. version:
Was our father Abraham not [shown to be] justified by works [of obedience which expressed his faith] when he offered Isaac his son on the altar [as a sacrifice to God]?

The writer to the Hebrews also has something important to say about this
By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac, and he who had received the promises was in the act of offering up his only son, 18of whom it was said, “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.” 19 He considered that God was able even to raise him from the dead, from which, figuratively speaking, he did receive him back. Heb 11:17-19

Abraham received promisses from God.
God tested Abraham to see if he would trust Him and His promisses.
Abraham trusted God, and His promisses, ie he had true "faith" in God.
We see the evidence of Abraham's faith, by what he did.

There is one body and one Spirit—just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call— one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all. (Eph. 4:4,5)

May the Lord give us understanding

Markus
 
Sola gratia said:
I know this is a bit late but I still like to add some thoughts and hopefully bring some clarity. Here is James 2:21 in the Ampl. version: Was our father Abraham not [shown to be] justified by works [of obedience which expressed his faith] when he offered Isaac his son on the altar [as a sacrifice to God]?
The writer to the Hebrews also has something important to say about this By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac, and he who had received the promises was in the act of offering up his only son, 18of whom it was said, “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.” 19 He considered that God was able even to raise him from the dead, from which, figuratively speaking, he did receive him back. Heb 11:17-19 Abraham received promisses from God. God tested Abraham to see if he would trust Him and His promisses. Abraham trusted God, and His promisses, ie he had true "faith" in God. We see the evidence of Abraham's faith, by what he did. There is one body and one Spirit—just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call— one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all. (Eph. 4:4,5) May the Lord give us understanding
Markus
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Hello Sola gratia;

Thank you for sharing your thoughts and Scripture. The verb of this discussion was assumed that James' message to the Jews and Paul's message to the Gentiles would align but we see in Scripture there were two different messages.

This is an example of what we find of many Scriptures, saying one thing but seemingly saying another that the scholars, theologians and disciples would suggest and dismiss as a contradiction. I disagree.

Considering God is the author and does not err, I shared earlier that if there are two separate accounts of an event does not make it mutually exclusive, instead, these are difficulties of understanding on our part (this is ok) of why one segment of the Old and New Testaments differ. The difficulties in God's Revelation is not the same as our difficulty understanding it.

I agree and blue-lighted the bottom of your post. Your sharing does open up God's way of bringing it all together, so to speak, in the Bible. We have a responsibility to remain steadfast in our study of God's Word for a lifetime.

On a side note, I was given the Amplified Bible as a gift from a couple early as a young Christian. During Bible study we went around reading a verse and when it was my turn I lost everybody because my translation had expanded sentences beside other unique systems for study. It took me 8 years to finish the Amplified, go figure! lol!

God bless you, Sola gratia.
 
Prim90 said:
MM there has been many false doctrines put forth pertaining to what the kingdom is in the in past 200 yrs just like the one you are proclaiming under the term the gospel of grace for the church and the kingdom gospel being solely for the nation of Israel. It be the two peoples doctrine you are promoting again. I’m not quite sure how you determine this considering we are all saved by the GRACE of the God. But let’s take a closer look at the kingdom, more so the kingdom of God. What actually is it ? We read in Luke 10:: 9-16 and learn that the kingdom of has come unto you. In other words Christ did bring forth the kingdom of God upon earth . Further we read in Luke 17:21 that the kingdom of God now lives within us. View attachment 11108In other words the Kingdom lives within all of us now. There be only one kingdom for Jew and gentle alike. This is further explored in Colossians chapter 1:13 where the kingdom of God mentioned once more in reference to the church. Perhaps reading from Colossians 1:1-27 for a fuller context . ( V27 To whom God would make known the riches of his glory this mystery among the Gentiles . Which is Christ in you, the hope of glory. ) In other words meaning the kingdom of God has come to Jew and Gentile alike as mentioned in Colossians 1:13. That has always been the understanding of the kingdom of God by the church until recent times. Why would you seek to divide something as beautiful as the kingdom of God ? ❤️
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The thread is all yours, Prim.

I wasn't in any way saying the Bible has errors or anything else I was accused of saying because I had not yet presented the biblical backing, clarifications and reasoning for my thoughts on this topic, but what I have said thus far must deeply violate the conscience of some, and so our conversation cannot happen in an atmosphere of egg shells and land mines. I appreciate the damage control to the misunderstandings for what I have said thus far on this topic without even having come close to a full explanation for everyone's full understanding. I apologize for any hurt feelings to my partial presentation, but that's the danger in posting smaller posts to make it all more readable rather than to post long dissertations that most people will never read. I took the risk and lost the "bet," so this is my farewell to you all, and I wish you all great blessings in the Lord.

Enjoy.

MM
 
Musicmaster said:
The thread is all yours, Prim.

I wasn't in any way saying the Bible has errors or anything else I was accused of saying because I had not yet presented the biblical backing, clarifications and reasoning for my thoughts on this topic, but what I have said thus far must deeply violate the conscience of some, and so our conversation cannot happen in an atmosphere of egg shells and land mines. I appreciate the damage control to the misunderstandings for what I have said thus far on this topic without even having come close to a full explanation for everyone's full understanding. I apologize for any hurt feelings to my partial presentation, but that's the danger in posting smaller posts to make it all more readable rather than to post long dissertations that most people will never read. I took the risk and lost the "bet," so this is my farewell to you all, and I wish you all great blessings in the Lord.

Enjoy.

MM
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MM I can’t remember reading you ever saying that the Bible has errors and I’ve never accused you of that. Actually you’ve always been very solid on that. As to any bad feelings walking on egg shells or walking through mine fields. Perhaps you’ve created that yourself. Firstly you have promoted 3 posts now which demotes the church as being inferior to your tribe and the church merely being a spare. IMG_4094.jpeg1 you promote the millennial reign with only Jews ruling over all the other nations. Hasn’t that always been Judaisms dream and goal. As to the rest of the church well their just wisked off to heaven playing no significant future role in the affairs of anything or the future world. I’m sure the Rabbi’s just luv that. I can hear them now. May God send all those pesky Christians to the furthest end of the universe : ) IMG_4094.jpeg2 in your next post you defrock Primmy of her bridal ware and everyone else for that matter who isn't Jewish of being the bride of Christ. You enlighten us that it is no longer Jew and gentile alike that be the bride of Christ that being the church. But now the bride solely be for the Jew IMG_4094.jpeg 3 in your post 6 post You inform us that it was solely only the apostle Paul that was the only the chef apostle to the Gentiles and the the other apostles were specifically only meant for Israel even if me reads they went evangelising many nations of the gentiles and not just jews. MM as much I respect you. I cannot let that go unnoticed you are promoting race superiority. You probably not realise it. Are we to bow to a race of people or are we to bow to Jesus Christ. This is what concerns me so. We are all one in Christ not two seperate compartments
 
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i have tried to understand this thread aka post . it started out with james faith without works is dead compared to paul saved by grace through faith not of works,,,,,,, faith works if your saved you will have works .over the years i have seen hair splitting on these sets of Scriptures . how this got a far as it did ..i have no clue how about putting it down a shelf saying what you mean plainly ,, somebody inform MM that i am not the thorn in the flesh he thinks i am.. honestly ya all can keep it
 
Prim90 said:
MM I can’t remember reading you ever saying that the Bible has errors and I’ve never accused you of that. Actually you’ve always been very solid on that. As to any bad feelings walking on egg shells or walking through mine fields. Perhaps you’ve created that yourself. Firstly you have promoted 3 posts now which demotes the church as being inferior to your tribe or the church merely being a spare. 1 you promote the millennial reign with only Jews ruling over all the other nations. Hasn’t that always been Judaisms dream and goal. As to the rest of the church well their just wisked off to heaven playing no significant future role in the affairs of anything or the future world. I’m sure the Rabbi’s just luv that. I can hear them now. May God send all those pesky Christians to the furthest end of the universe : ) 2 in your next post you defrock Primmy of her bridal ware and everyone else for that matter who isn't Jewish of being the bride of Christ. You enlighten us that it is no longer Jew and gentile alike that be the bride of Christ that being the church. But now the bride solely be for the Jew 3 in your post 6 post You inform us that it was solely only the apostle Paul that was the only the chef apostle to the Gentiles and the the other apostles were specifically only meant for Israel even if me reads they went evangelising many nations of the gentiles and not just jews. MM as much I respect you. I cannot let that go unnoticed you are promoting race superiority. You probably not realise it Are we to bow to a race of people or are we to bow to Jesus Christ. We are all one in Christ not two seperate compartments
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forgiven61 said:
i have tried to understand this thread aka post . it started out with james faith without works is dead compared to paul saved by grace through faith not of works,,,,,,, faith works if your saved you will have works .over the years i have seen hair splitting on these sets of Scriptures . how this got a far as it did ..i have no clue how about putting it down a shelf saying what you mean plainly ,, somebody inform MM that i am not the thorn in the flesh he thinks i am.. honestly ya all can keep it
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Good morning, Prim90 and forgiven;

As a Pastor it makes no difference whether I'm in the Church community or Christian Forum Site. People are people and Musicmaster has had a tough couple of threads. Perhaps time away and fellowship at the other sites he frequents will be good for him, beside what God says first.

You both made your point and thank you! (I personally received it) since I was also in the thick of this discussion.

I would encourage all of us to give the man time. His wife is a great support. In the meantime lets move on to other threads in this forum.

God bless you all.





 
a timely message for all of us i challenge all to listen to this message , in fact if it dont step on your toes , which it will everyone of us has been guilty , as we say in the pulpit the altar is open
 
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Hi Forgiven. I have just listened to the video, and I love it. What service he gave, tremendous! Thanks forgiven .
 
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