I agree. Yet, that is not how the apostles regarded themselves. They were humble servants of God who recognized they were no better than the people they served. They considered themselves as fellow-servants with Christ's body, not as lords over it. Yet, in so many of today's modern churches (protestant), so many pastors have gotten this idea, which they communicate to their people, that they are above us, and that they are to lord it over the people, and that they are to require unquestioning loyalty and devotion to them. And, that is dangerous.
Apostolic Succession
- Thread starter SueJLove
- Start date
Yes, I think so too : )
In addition, I personally prefer some kinda of organized or hierarchical leadership : )
Key point: Accountability
There appears from time to time, more than false claims/predictions, more on practices that is not within the requirements of a leader as Paul describe: they go unscathed….
Unlike in an organized structure… they can be kicked out….
Correct! No pastor, or deacon or elder or bishop or priest has more authority than does the everyday common man who has believed upon the Lord Jesus Christ. We are all equal in the sight of Christ. However, just as in a marriage, someone has to be the person accountable to God.
Amen. The state of Christendom is awful. It breaks my heart too to see my fellow believers caught up in all sorts of religious things of the day which are really not of God. In thinking that, I do have to guard against pride. I can't let myself adopt a superior attitude because I'm apart from these things which I know to be not of God. Am I really apart from them, in my spirit? Is my separation inward as well as outward? That's a test. And I have to take responsibility for all my brethren - responsibility for all the failure in testimony down the ages. That should humble me, and put me in a low place, recognising that it's through grace that I'm saved, and from that place I can get an appreciation of what God is doing now and move in accordance with it.
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Denominational teaching is a very dangerous thing, and denominationalism is really sectarianism by another name. You make an important point though that it's easy to get onto that line of things. I might gather with believers, simply, without taking any name but Christ's, and I might not be a member of an organisation which has appointed officials, or anything which normally marks a denomination - but I can still get into sectarian thinking. If I start to go out to gather with "the Brethren" and not because I'm drawn to the Name of the Lord Jesus, then I'm making a sect out of my brethren. They become the centre, in my heart. They should be in my heart, but Christ is the Centre. If I start to get narrow in my thinking and focused only only the believers with whom I walk in fellowship, I lose sight of the whole thought of God, the Church in its completeness, composed of every believer. Just because I can't walk in fellowship practically with them all, I still have to hold them in my heart, otherwise I get into sectarian thinking. The eventually leads to the dangerous extreme of claiming that a certain company of believers are THE Church.
I agree with you, but this isn't about an inordinate "interest in status and leadership".
I am completely non-denominational. I believe the word of God when God says that He provides all the gifts and callings He lists for the benefit of the Church. Nothing has passed out of "season" while the Lord Jesus Christ is busy building it. Apostle is just one great gift and calling that God is continually providing for the Body of Christ. Denial of this is from a false teaching, and not from the Lord.
Sorry Euphemia, I'm a bit slow on the uptake and can't understand what you mean?
My question would be, could you point to anyone alive today and say that they were an apostle? I don't think I could, though I could definitely identify some people who're marked by what's apostolic in character. They come with authority, as sent of God, in a particular matter - and I am bound to recognise their authority in that matter. None of these people I have in mind are public figures, and the matters they've had to deal with aren't public matters, but in dealing with things among the brethren, they showed what is characteristically apostolic. The apostles were used of God in what is foundational. I don't believe that another foundation needs to be laid in the course of the building, and that's why we have "first, apostles" in 1 Corinthians 12:28 - they came first, and after them others with other gifts required in the building up. What is apostolic in character today would really bring the brethren back to that foundation, if any of us happen to have got away from it. I feel we're bound to respect the authority of brethren coming in that character, in order to bring us back to the foundation "which is Jesus Christ." (1 Corinthians 3:11).
I hope that's right to say, and the brethren must be free to tell me what they think.
I am seeing this discussion move from the assertion that the bible teaches there is no apostolic succession to a complete denial of the spiritual gifting and calling of apostle in the Body of Christ, to a mention of individuals clamoring after position in the Body of Christ. It's morphing into a whole other discussion.
If a person is making a claim for themselves that they are an apostle, then that is an indication that they just may not be, for it is an arduous calling and no one would want it for themselves. Like yourself, however, I can identify one with the gift of apostle, and who functions in that spiritual calling.
Grant, I agree but Euphemia was calling ME a denominational person as if that is a nasty thing which it is not. I was raised among Charismatic Pentecostals, educated in the Presbyterian faith and now at a late age have chosen to attend a Baptist church.
I do believe that the Baptist faith is the closest to Bible teachings that I have personally found which is why I am one.
I am unaware of another Christian faith that operates a Cooperative missionary program as well as they do which drew me to them.
I try my very best to expound the Bible as it is without changes or additions.
Individuals clamouring after position is the precisely same discussion.
It is status, position, and claims of apostolic succession that has denied the true spiritual ministries and callings of the church.
NO ONE can be an apostle today. NO ONE can meet the requirements laid down in the Word of God.
The 12 Apostles held a unique position and If there is such a thing today as an Apostle, how do we then explain Rev. 21:14.......
“The wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.”
John saw the names of the 12 Apostles on the wall of New Jerusalem. That could only be the original 12 and not anyone since them as he died in 96 AD. It was these twelve apostles who were the foundation of the church—with Jesus being the cornerstone (Ephesians 2:20).
No biblical evidence exists to indicate that these thirteen apostles were replaced when they died. THERE IS NO RECORD!!!!
Acts 1:21-22.......
"Therefore it is necessary to choose one of the men who have been with us the whole time the Lord Jesus was living among us, 22 beginning from John’s baptism to the time when Jesus was taken up from us. For one of these must become a witness with us of his resurrection.”
Peter proposed choosing a new apostle and set the qualifications. Not everyone could be considered for an apostleship. Candidates needed to have been with Jesus during the whole three years that Jesus was among them. That is, he needed to be an eyewitness of Jesus’ baptism when the Heavenly Father validated Jesus’ person and work. He needed to have heard Jesus’ life-changing teachings and been present to see His healings and other miracles. He needed to have witnessed Jesus sacrifice Himself on the cross and to have seen Jesus walk, talk, and eat among the disciples again after His resurrection. These were the pivotal facts of Jesus’ life, the heart of the message they were to teach, and personal witnesses were required to verify the truth of the good news.
We can want there to be and insist there is and demand all sorts of things but there is in fact no Biblical record whatsoever.
Amen, and would you also agree that a person who claims to be an apostle actually places himself above others by then being beyond accountability with the best example would of course be the Pope of the Catholic church.
Certainly, claims of apostolic succession such as the RCC makes, is a perpetuation of the false idea of hierarchy in the Body of Christ. I gotcha, now!
Yes one can, and there are no requirements laid down in the word of God for apostle, except that one is born again and is submitted to the baptism of the Holy Spirit.
A person genuinely anointed with the gift/calling of apostle is not one to trumpet it. One who has such a position is acclaimed by others, and not oneself.
This all began because I read a blog of someone's who is reputable in the Christian community, and it concerned me greatly that he was teaching "apostolic succession." Although this subject was new to me, I could tell from what he was writing that this doctrine was not good. He was not teaching the scriptures, but he was teaching a philosophy of human origin and he quoted much from men from the 3rd century, or around that period of time, in order to support his theology. I believed the Lord would have me investigate this further, because I saw how this has been influencing the protestant church here in America for at least 20 years, that I know of. So, I asked for your input. But, I don't believe God would be pleased with us arguing and fighting with each other over words, but for us to see what the scriptures teach concerning the life of the church today, how to avoid false teaching, and how to put on the truth. The post (above) is what the Lord taught me through all of this, and I believe, if you would read it, that it might help clear things up. I don't believe we should get caught up in titles, but we should just be humble servants of Christ.
I quite agree, and none of the people I have in mind would ever claim to be an apostle, or demand to be heard on account of any claim of gift or authority. There's simply something about them which is spiritually discerned by those around them.