Are All Forgiven?

[calvin]

Thank you Major! You're more than welcome to interject and I appreciate the "down to earth/literal" explanation". Something I greatly enjoy. Could you provide me a resource where it states what you mentioned (what I quoted)?

Luke 12:13 Someone in the crowd said to him, "Teacher, tell my brother to divide the inheritance with me."
Though I would take a lot of convincing that this is related to the Jacob/Esau situation, the imbalance in estate practice is not without precedent.............from the Bible. But it does speak of favouring one brother over another. Did this give rise to idiomatic saying?? I have no idea.

 

[Major]

Thank you Major! You're more than welcome to interject and I appreciate the "down to earth/literal" explanation". Something I greatly enjoy. Could you provide me a resource where it states what you mentioned (what I quoted)?

There are several excellant works out there. "King James Bible Commentary"
by Nelson Publishing is an excellant verse by verse work.

"Spurgeon's Notes" is excellant and O. Green's "Bible Truth's" also record this fact.

 

[Major]

Yes....she is in your list of sexual failed women; that is crystal clear.
Yet you still think a Gentile is ...what? Impure? Not fit to be in the lineage of the world's Saviour?
Your opinion is a that a "godly" Gentile is questionable?

I find this objectionable.

As usual, you are mixing up an opinion with Scripture.

I did not write Matthew 1:1-12. In fact I did not write any of Matthew now that I think about it.

I simply posted what was written. It is not my list of sexually failed women. It is God's list and how He used just that kind of person to accomplish His will.

Lifeasweknowit was asking how God would allow a liar to be used in the Jacob and Esau story.

My only purpose was to show Biblically that God uses sinners and has done so since Creation. If you were not so focused on trying to question my motives, you just might see the reason God placed this in the Scriptures.

So, allow me to point something IMO that is very important.Two of the four women in the list were in fact Gentiles (Ruth and Rahab).

Tamar, Rahab and Bathsheba have horrible blots on their names in the Scriptures and that is a Biblical fact and is not an opinion. Now..........thses names are missing from the genealogy of Jesus in Luke. It is Matthew the publican who includes them!

The point is, Jesus was accused of being a friend of "publicans and sinners" in Matt. 9:11 & 11:19. Publicans were hated by the Jews because of their association with the government of Rome in collecting the taxes from the people, uselly collecting more than was due and then they kept the overage.

In that day a woman referred to as "a sinner" was often known to be a harlot. Therefore, the fact that these women were named, 3 of them with black marks against their character sets forth the wonderful riches of Gods saving grace and testifies that His grace saves not only the "respectable" sinners but also ALL sinners who have been degraded in the eyes of their fellow man.

Through the grace of God, even puvlicans, and harlots can be made sons of God and joint heirs with Christ.

 

[Major]

Luke 12:13 Someone in the crowd said to him, "Teacher, tell my brother to divide the inheritance with me."
Though I would take a lot of convincing that this is related to the Jacob/Esau situation, the imbalance in estate practice is not without precedent.............from the Bible. But it does speak of favouring one brother over another. Did this give rise to idiomatic saying?? I have no idea.

I agree calvin. I am not sure Luke 12:13 speaks to the situation other than the fact that it is there for a reason.

Romans 9:13 (ESV)
13 As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated".

It seems to me that when we consider context reading of this passage, it tells us that the subject is not about salvation, but Israel’s national role in redemptive history.

Genesis 27:29 (ESV)
29 Let peoples serve you,
and nations bow down to you.
Be lord over your brothers,
and may your mother’s sons bow down to you.
Cursed be everyone who curses you,
and blessed be everyone who blesses you!”

Malachi 1:2–3 (ESV)

2 “I have loved you,” says the Lord. But you say, “How have you loved us?” “Is not Esau Jacob’s brother?” declares the Lord. “Yet I have loved Jacob 3 but Esau I have hated. I have laid waste his hill country and left his heritage to jackals

Now for context, when I read those verses in the context of Malachi’s book clearly indicates that Malachi is using the word “Jacob” to refer to the nation of Israel and the word “Esau” to refer to the nation of Edom.

As I stated, It is also important to explain that the word used for “hate” in Malachi 1 is a Hebrew idiom which actually means to “love less.” Norman Geisler explains: “This is evident fromGen. 29:30: The phrase ‘loved Rachel more than Leah’ is used as the equivalent of ‘Leah was hated’

Genesis 29:30 (ESV)
30 So Jacob went in to Rachel also, and he loved Rachel more than Leah, and served Laban for another seven years.​

 

[Major]

Thank you Major! You're more than welcome to interject and I appreciate the "down to earth/literal" explanation". Something I greatly enjoy. Could you provide me a resource where it states what you mentioned (what I quoted)?

In his commentary on Romans (where Paul quotes this Malachi passage in Romans 9:13) Leon Morris cites examples where hate clearly seems to mean something like “loved less”. Yet he agrees with Calvin, and McHenry and Gill's idea that the real thought here is much more like “accepted” and “rejected” more than it is like our understanding of the terms “loved” and “hated.”

Gen. 29:31-33
And when the LORD saw that Leah was hated, he opened her womb: but Rachel was barren. And Leah conceived, and bore a son, and she called his name Reuben: for she said, Surely the LORD has looked on my affliction; now therefore my husband will love me. And she conceived again, and bore a son; and said, Because the LORD has heard I was hated, he has therefore given me this son also: and she called his name Simeon

Deuteronomy 21:15
King James Version (KJV)
15 If a man have two wives, one beloved, and another hated, and they have born him children, both the beloved and the hated; and if the firstborn son be hers that was hated

Matthew 6:24
King James Version (KJV)
24 No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

Luke 14:26
King James Version (KJV)
26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

Remember the real context involved in the story of Jacob & Esau is election, not individual salvation. The reason why election is brought up here is not to exclude, but to comfort and reassure.

“A woman once said to Mr. Spurgeon, ‘I cannot understand why God should say that He hated Esau.’ ‘That,’ Spurgeon replied, ‘is not my difficulty, madam. My trouble is to understand how God could love Jacob.’”
(William Newell in his commentary on Romans)

“Malachi is not speaking of the predestination of the one brother and reprobation of the other; he is contrasting the histories of the two peoples represented by them . . . Both nations sinned; both are punished; but Israel by God’s free mercy was forgiven and restored, while Edom was left in the misery which it had brought upon itself by its own iniquity.” ( quoted from...Pulpit)

I hope this is enough resources for you Tink and thanks for asking.

 

[Silk]

Rofl...“A woman once said to Mr. Spurgeon, ‘I cannot understand why God should say that He hated Esau.’ ‘That,’ Spurgeon replied, ‘is not my difficulty, madam. My trouble is to understand how God could love Jacob.’”
(William Newell in his commentary on Romans)

I've ordered your first of two sources but cannot find the 3rd. Have to await snail mail. I do not believe God hates - I just don't. Transcriber or man-error. I like the likes less phrasing, but again I think God "hates" the sin/evil (that traps souls) but loves all of his children, equally.

 

[Major]

First...ALL of anyone's posts here are opinions mixed with Scripture. NO one here is opinionless...You have opinions.

Secondly...I question posts, not motives. I see not into hearts. Please stop the personal attacks.

Thirdly ...If you read my post, THIS is what I find objectionable:



How please tell me is a Gentile "questionable"? You yourself point out that Rahab was a Gentile. How was a "godly" questionable to you?

[/quote]

Because it was not customary to list the names of women in a genealogy, therefore the inclusion of these names had to be deliberate on Matthews part.

I have already explained that there was alesson in it to be gleaned as to why?

 

[Major]

So now you are saying that "a list of women" is questionable and not that your earlier post that Ruth herself was questionable?
It obvious as to "why". It was not obvious as to why you found Ruth objectionable, placed among a list of women with sexual sin as their history.
Wish you would have stated that in the first place. Would have saved all of us a heap of explanation.

I think it would only have helped you Rusty. I don't think anyone else was involved. IMO it seemed like a hunt for something not there.

Oh, well....maybe we can move on now!

 

[Major]

Rofl...“A woman once said to Mr. Spurgeon, ‘I cannot understand why God should say that He hated Esau.’ ‘That,’ Spurgeon replied, ‘is not my difficulty, madam. My trouble is to understand how God could love Jacob.’”
(William Newell in his commentary on Romans)

I've ordered your first of two sources but cannot find the 3rd. Have to await snail mail. I do not believe God hates - I just don't. Transcriber or man-error. I like the likes less phrasing, but again I think God "hates" the sin/evil (that traps souls) but loves all of his children, equally.

Agreed. God does in fact hate sin as should we all.

 

[Lifeasweknowit]

I have the utmost intentions to get back to you Major, and anyone else who have posted regarding the subject...for now my head kind of hurt (thanks Dirty) from all the back and forth and lack of clarification...or the clarification that only leads to a lack of clarification...is this making any sense? My head is spinning and I have only read one post. I'll post more within the next few days. Again, thank you.

 

[Brother_Mike_V]

I have the utmost intentions to get back to you Major, and anyone else who have posted regarding the subject...for now my head kind of hurt (thanks Dirty) from all the back and forth and lack of clarification...or the clarification that only leads to a lack of clarification...is this making any sense? My head is spinning and I have only read one post. I'll post more within the next few days. Again, thank you.

May I make a suggestion? Take your favorite Gospel and consume it-read it several times. Take your time and ruminate on each verse....

You'll notice I take a lot of my verses out of John.