Are all Muslims troublemakers?

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Are you speaking to the actual words written in the Quran? Just wanting clarification.

Are you leaving because I posted the words in the Muslim bible which gives them direction in life and them seem to be following those direction?

Should we ignore such things and pretend that all is ell and no one is being killed in the name of allah?


Also, more as a side note, but it is BECAUSE I believe in Islam, that I stand here today. It is Islam, and no other, that brought me to this place. See... I figured it all out. I understand everything now... and without Islam, I could never have understood.

I am a Christian, BECAUSE I was first a Muslim.

You may hate Islam and Muslims... but there was a reason it had to be this way... and there is a really really good reason for Satan to want that reason hidden. He is doing a good job of it too... hiding the truth of it all.

But he cannot hide it from everyone.
 
It would not be that difficult for someone to quote a dozen scriptures from the Bible that would make Christians seem like nasty people. Things like genocide. I think you really have to look at how the establishment interprets the Koran as a whole in order to make a judgment on the faith. You will find that most Islamic clergy has reasonable, albeit very pious, beliefs about most life issues.

Some quick facts about the Koran might help to understand how the Islamic establishment interprets it:
1) The Koran's verses are not arranged by subject or chronologically. It is arranged from the longest verses to the shortest verses.
2) Mohammed indicated that if the Koran gives conflicting messages, then the chronologically later verse/message is always to be taken as the ruling one. This is called "abrogation."
3) Most of the verses in the Koran which mandate violence to the infidel (non-believers) were given by Mohammed during his later years, when Islam had grown in power and wealth. Mohammed taught that his followers were not to wage physical war until Islam, in any given area, had grown large enough to ensure victory. (We see this played out politically as almost every country which is wholly Islamic today began with an influx of Muslim immigrants, who then made strategic moves to gain power politically. Once they are entrenched, violence often erupts towards the infidels who refuse to convert.)
4) Mohammed gave his followers license to lie about the intentions of their faith if it would protect them or prevent persuction. This is called "taqiyya".

The Bible does mandate for the Hebrews to commit genocide/ethnic cleansing in the Old Testament. That topic is worth giving its own thread. However! The New Testament teachings (which Christians are living under) NEVER advocate violence. Hence, the often misleading statements by many people who compare Muslim violence to violence in the Bible are clouding the issue or do not realize the Christian teachings do not advocate violence.

Also, I suspect the Muslim clergy who appear reasonable and pious may only be biding their time for Islam to grow powerful enough to be in control. I have heard Muslim clergy make public statements designed to appease protesters to Islamic faith, and then later call the believers to violence (jihad). Taqiyya gives them license to do so.
 
I can find hatred ignorance and lies anywhere. I can fight with anyone about how "evil" all Muslims are.

Was there ever a time in Christian history people were being killed in God's name? Yes. Is it right? NO. Does God advocate such things? NO.

You pick one verse out of the Quran, without looking at ALL the other verses that pertain to that topic. The Quran was revealed over a period of 23 years. Every single verse is surrounded with the facts of the history concerning its revelation. This means, each time a verse was revealed, something particular was happening then to warrants its revelation.

You pick a verse from the Quran without knowing the history behind it, and you isolate from the other verses on the same topic, and judge it alone. Not you, nor anyone else, can do this and ever have even the slightest inkling what it meant or how to interpret it today, right now.

Because different situations today, will warrant different interpretations for today... because it is situational to specific situations. Should those same situations repeat, then it will go back into effect, should the situation not repeat, then it is null at this time.

You go to hate sites and think you know Islam, instead of going to Muslims who know what the Quran teaches who will sit and explain it to you.

THIS ignorance and hatred will cause WW3. You want to have WW3 you can go right ahead. Your leaders want you to want it, the people spreading hate want you to want it..

and no one is telling you the truth about it, and you don't care enough about the truth to actually find it. Because if you did we wouldn't have a need for this conversation.

Not only that, but I didn't come to this site to fight for Islam, I came to this site to learn about Christianity. So what am I fighting about Islam for? This is stupid.

PS. Concerning Bukhari and Muslim. You would need to understand the sciences of ahadith and know all your narrators in any given hadith before you can quote from it. Narrators are the people in a hadith who told it to another person.

If any of those people were known liars, the hadith itself is weakened because there is a known liar in the chain of narrators.

Abu Huraira is one of the narrators in Bukhari and Muslim who narrated many many many hadith. Well over 5,000 narrated with him in the chain in those two books of hadith. And guess what... he was a known liar, who admited to lying, which is also right there in Bukhair and Muslim.

See, he was a beggar, who made up ahadith in order to get people to give him money and food and stuff.. the things a beggar begs for. And he made up "sayings" of the Prophet, in order for material gain. And he is the one who told us this!

So... watch what you believe about Muslims.... there is usually another story somewhere in there. And actually looking for the truth is important.

But... since I was raised as such a trouble maker... I'll go.

Chris1~
Yes, I admit to having visited anti-Muslim websites. Yet, most of my information comes from a Palistinian Christian who speaks Arabic and understands the Muslim mind-set because he was born, raised and lived under their rule for many decades before coming to America. He has always been persecuted by Muslims and is very grateful to be in America living with freedom.

Your angry outburst is typical of many Muslims who are confronted with any criticism of their faith. It's almost as if they are afraid that if they don't aggressively address any criticism of Islam, that they will be considered to be non-believers in the Muslim communities; thereby endangering their life. If you truly have converted to Christianity, I hope you will ask Jesus to change your heart from anger to peaceful tolerance of criticism of Islam, trusting that Jesus is perfectly capable of defending Christianity, and leaving Mohammed to defend Islam.

I hope you don't leave the forum. You are needed here.
 
Also, more as a side note, but it is BECAUSE I believe in Islam, that I stand here today. It is Islam, and no other, that brought me to this place. See... I figured it all out. I understand everything now... and without Islam, I could never have understood.

I am a Christian, BECAUSE I was first a Muslim.

You may hate Islam and Muslims... but there was a reason it had to be this way... and there is a really really good reason for Satan to want that reason hidden. He is doing a good job of it too... hiding the truth of it all.

But he cannot hide it from everyone.
Before you go, I have an honest question to ask of you.
What do you believe will happen to Muslims when Christ returns and why do you believe that?
 
Chris1~
Yes, I admit to having visited anti-Muslim websites. Yet, most of my information comes from a Palistinian Christian who speaks Arabic and understands the Muslim mind-set because he was born, raised and lived under their rule for many decades before coming to America. He has always been persecuted by Muslims and is very grateful to be in America living with freedom.

Your angry outburst is typical of many Muslims who are confronted with any criticism of their faith. It's almost as if they are afraid that if they don't aggressively address any criticism of Islam, that they will be considered to be non-believers in the Muslim communities; thereby endangering their life. If you truly have converted to Christianity, I hope you will ask Jesus to change your heart from anger to peaceful tolerance of criticism of Islam, trusting that Jesus is perfectly capable of defending Christianity, and leaving Mohammed to defend Islam.

I hope you don't leave the forum. You are needed here.

The concept of abrogation in islam is a long and drawn out process. In the end, every school (madhab) disagrees to one extent or the other concerning abrogation, and every scholar disagrees with everyone else. Depending upon which scholar you listen to, you have some teaching only 1 verses was ever abrogated and some believe up to 500. (I personally think those who believe up to 500 are crazy, lazy, and just WANT it to be like that so they don't have to do much thinking!)

I personally only believe in the abrogation of 9 verses. The rest work hand in hand together... this is what I believe. This is how I was taught by scholars, and this is how I always taught Islam - as I was also a teacher.

In order for you to see how in depth this concept is, and how it originated from the scholars themselves, I will quote this:

Hanafi Doctrine of Naskh (Abrogation)

Hamdard Islamicus, Vol. 22 (1999) No. 3
by Dr. M. Akram Rana

In the usual classification of Muslim sciences, the usul al-fiqh isgenerally defined as the science of the proofs which lead to the establishment of legal standard.(1)

The usul had been the subject of study by jurists as attested by the fact that Abu Yusuf discusses certain aspects of it in his Kitab al-Kharaj(2) and Shaybani is reported to have written a book on the usul.(3) But this term had not yet acquired the technical meaning of a science dealing specifically with the sources of Islamic law. The Risalah,(4) a unique work in the literature of Islamic law, gave Shafi’i a name as the founder of the science of usul al-fiqh. Shafi’i was followed in his monumental work on the principles of jurisprudence by a Hanafi jurist, al-Karkhi, the teacher of al-Jassas. Although his treatment was very sketchy, it was a fruitful start in the field concerned.(5) Al-Karkhi was followed by Abu Bakr al-Jassas who wrote a comprehensive book about usul al-fiqh in which he explained the views of his teacher al-Karkhi.(6) The Usul al-Jassas, as a matter of fact, is the first systematic attempt ever made to describe the principles of Muslim jurisprudence. The late Hanafi works on the usul and particularly on al-Nasikh wa’l Mansukh give us clues that most of the ideas were borrowed from the Usul al-Jassas.(7) Mustafa Zaid,(8) an Egyptian Writer on the subject of al-Nasikh wa'l-Mansukh, states that definition of naskh by Jassas was followed for five centuries. Jassas included in his Usul the views who do and do not believe in the theory of Naskh. The views of his fellow Hanafites like 'Isa b. Aban are also explained. Further, he presented Karkhi's views and remarked that Karkhi's opinions were clearer than those of 'Isa b. Aban's.(9) Records show that Jassas was an exponent of the Hanafi school and its acknowledged Usuli. The production of the Usul al-Jassas was intended to verify the fiqh of Imam Abu Hanifah. Jassas endeavoured to document the Hanafi views in the light of verses of the Qur'an and the ahadith of the Prophet (P.B.H.).

Abu Hanifah may here be mentioned as the founder of the system. He acquired much of his knowledge from Hammad b. Abi Sulaymain who is regarded as the pioneer of the Hanafi school. The fiqh of the Iraqi school was supported and established by the great pupils of Imam Abu Hanifah i.e., Abu Yusuf and Shaybani. At the request of caliph Harun al-Rasyid, the former compiled his Kitab al-Kharaj which, however, covers much wider ground than is indicated by its title. However, little is learnt about naskh from the book. Abu Yusuf maintains that the Sunnah can override the Qur'an. The abrogation of the Qur'anic injunction of ablution (al-Qur'an, V:6) by the wiping of the shoes is a case in point.(10) Shaybani, like his companion Abu Yusuf, did not discuss the principles of abrogation in detail although some instances of naskh are discussed in his works. Shaybani reported that the Prophet (P.B.H.) launched a campaign against. Al-Ta'if at the beginning of the sacred month of Muharram and continued it for forty days until he captured the city in the month of Safar. Shaybani then produced a report on the authority of Mujahid in which he had declared that the prohibition of fighting during the sacred months was abrogated. According to Mujahid, the prohibition of fighting during the sacred months as laid down in the Qur'an (11:217) was abrogated by God in another verse: "slay the Pagans wherever you may find them" (al-Qur’an, IX:5). When Shaybani that fighting during the sacred months, according to Kalbi, was not abrogated, he remarked that Kalbi's opinion was not to be followed.(11) This sort of report tells us that there was no agreed theory of naskh. It also informs us that there seems to be no agreement among the jurists on the incidence of naskh. The earlier works on fiqh and hadith show that the word naskh was not used frequently. In the Muwatta’ of Imam Malik the word naskh is mentioned only once. It is held that the Qur'anic injunction which prescribed the precise shares of the listed relatives of a deceased person (al-Qur’an, IV:11-12) abrogated the Qur'anic injunction concerning wasiyyah (al-Qur’an, 11:180). Imam Malik also indicated that the Qur'an could abrogate the Sunnah, but in this case he used the word taraka. He agreed with his teacher Zuhri on the point that the later command abrogated the earlier.(12)

The works on al-Nasikh wa'l-Mansukh reveal that there was no single reported instance in which the Prophet (P.B.H.) said explicitly that a certain ruling was abrogated. Hamadhani, however, records two versions in which the name of the Prophet (P.B.H.) was involved. 'Urwah b. Zubayr said: "I testify that ray father told me that the Prophet (P.B.H.) would make a statement and after a while, he would abrogate it by means of another statement just as the Qur’an abrogates other parts of the Qur’an". Ibn Baylmani reported on the authority of his father that ibn 'Umar heard from the Prophet (P.B.H.) who had said: "Some parts of my ahadith abrogate other parts of my ahadith". Hamadhani, after recording this hadith, argued that no one except ibn Baylmani had narrated this ahadith. Further, ibn Baylmani was not a reliable person and his hadith must not be accepted.(13)

Shafi’i, according to Hamadhani, was the first scholar who systematised the principles of naskh.(14) This reveals that principles of naskh were in operation. Before we present the Hanafi's views on abrogation and the arguments against and for the theory concerned presented by Jassas and documented by Sarakhsi, it would be extremely useful to see how Jassas settles the meaning of naskh.

The scholars disagreed concerning the meaning of naskh. Some said: "it refers to naql (transfer). They say: nasakha al-Kitab (He copied the book i.e., he transferred what was in, the original copy to another copy). Others said: it refers to ibtal (nullification). They say: nasakhat al-shams al-zill, (the sun removed the shade). Some of them said: naskh is zalah. They refer to nasakhat al-rih al-athar (The wind obliterated the traces). These words are close in meaning, and whatever naskh may mean in the language, when it is used for the abrogation of the ruling, it is used metaphorically." Jassas rejects all the possible meaning of naskh, derived from secular usage whether it refers to naql, ibtal or iza1ah.(15)

Jassas restricts discussion of the word naskh to the Shari’ah usage and remarks: "Naskh is the declaration of the time of the particular ruling which we thought would remain for ever, but the second ruling made it clear that the time of the ruling was for a certain period and it was now no longer valid."(16)

This meaning of naskh had not been defined by any of Jassas' predecessors, therefore, he was the first person to declare that naskh in the Shari’ah is the bayan of the duration of the ruling. This definition of naskh was adopted by Jassas in order to refute the views of those Muslim scholars who held that naskh, never occurred in the Shari’ah. It was also to refute those Jews who had declared that Moses had informed them that the Shari’ah of the Torah and working on the day of the Sabbath would never be abrogated. Thirdly, it was to refute the views of Shafi’i who had maintained that only the Qur'an superseded the Qur'an; only the Sunnah superseded the Sunnah. He claimed that they did not and could not supersede each other. The function of the Sunnah, he believes, is to follow what is laid down in the Qur'an. In support of his view he listed some Qur’anic verses which according to him clearly spoke about the abrogation of the Qur'an alone.(17) He refers the Qur'anic verses X:15 and II:106. His opponents interpreted the same verses to indicate that the Qur’an could be abrogated by the Sunnah, and the Sunnah could be abrogated by the Qur'an. According to Jassas, the Qur’an (11:106) indicated that naskh occurred in the Qur'an. It did not indicate that the Qur'anic verse would be abrogated by a better or similar Qur'anic verse, since nothing prevented as from understanding from the verse that abrogation might be achieved by the Sunnah which was revealed to the Prophet (P.B.H.), and this, he argued, was the precise meaning of the verses: "we bring better or like thereof("18.) God meant to state that He would make a ruling superior to the first in the sense of its being easier to perform, or richer in terms of reward.(19)

Concerning those, Muslim scholars who did not believe in the theory of naskh, Jassas stated: "Some of the modern scholars have asserted that there was no naskh in the Shari’ah of our Prophet (P.B.H.). The occurrence of naskh was merely an indication that laws of the previous prophets (A.S.) were abrogated like the Sabbath and facing towards the East or the West while praying. They had argued that our Prophet (P.B.H.) was the last of the prophets (A S.) and his Shari’ah was confirmed and everlasting until the day of judgement. The man (Abu Muslim al-Isfahani) who had held this view was endowed with knowledge of rhetoric and Arabic language, but he had no knowledge of jurisprudence and the principles of jurisprudence. Although it could not be doubted that he was perfect in faith, he deviated greatly from the right path by declaring this dogma, since no one had reported this before him. Our predecessors and their successors understood from the religion of God, that numerous rulings were abrogated from it; and they have narrated these reports in a way which could not be questioned. There are general, specific, confirmed and obscure passages in the Qur'an. The one who rejected the occurrence of naskh, rejected all its general, specific, confirmed and obscure commands because these categories all arrived in the same manner. This man had derived from the abrogated and abrogating verses, judgements which were excluded from the interpretations of our early scholars I (Jassas) could not understand from where he had obtained his information. However, I maintain that he had used his own judgement leaving aside the reports of the salaf. The Prophet (P.B.H.) had said: 'whoever interpreted the Qur'an by using his personal opinion, certainly committed a sin'."

Jassas' opponents quoted several passages from the Qur’an in order to show that abrogation or withdrawal of the verses was impossible; God said: 'We have without doubt, sent down the Message (Qur’an) and We will surely guard it (from corruption) (al-Qur’an, XV:9). God also said: "It is for us to collect it (the Qur’an) and to promulgate it: But when We have promulgated it, follow then its recital (as promulgated). Nay, more it is for Us to explain it (and make it clear)" (al-Qur'an, LXXV:17-19). The explicit meaning of the verses require that God would guard the Qur’an for ever and its implication is for the whole ummah because He did not specify the time or generation. God said: "...it (the Qur'an), is no less a Message for all creatures". (al-Qur'an, XII:104). God in this verse informed us that the whole Qur'an is a Message (or Reminder) and it confirms that there would be no abrogation of the wording, because what is abrogated or forgotten and did not reach us, would not be considered as a Message for the people.

Jassas explains away these verses by simply saying that they refer to something else. The verses do not prevent the possibility of the ruling being abrogated. In a similar vein, the verses do not prevent the possibility of the wording being abrogated, said Jasas.

The view that these verses do not prevent us from talking about the abrogation of the wording or ruling might mean that Jassas was dealing with the two phenomena of the naskh:
  1. Naskh al-tilawah duna al-hukm and
  2. Naskh al-hukm duna al-tilawah.

The first is adopted by Jassas in order to establish the ruling of kaffarat al-yamin which is imposed upon a believer who fails to fulfil his deliberate oath. The Hanafis argued that three days should be consecutive, because the wording mutatabi’at had existed in 'Abd Allah b. Mas’ud's reading.(20) Jassas and Sarakhsi claim that the wording was withdrawn while the ruling remained valid.(21) Tabari was also of the view that the keeper of the fast who has to expiate for the breaking of an oath should fast for three continuous days. There is no disagreement among the scholars that this will suffice; others disagree as to whether fasting on non-consecutive days will suffice as expiation.(22)

Shifi’i’s predecessors, both Hanafis and Malikis, allowed the abrogation of the Sunnah by the Qur'an and vice verse. For Shafi'i who had interpreted the verse No. 106 of the Surah al-Baqarah (No. II) in the light of the verse No. 10 of the Surah Nahl (No. XVI), it was very difficult to adopt the procedure. Shafi'i succeeded in his attempts and secured the place of the Sunnah as a source of law and the danger which had threatened it was no longer felt. Even the followers of Shafi’i, let alone the Hanafis and Malikis, felt free to, revert to pre-Shafi'i thinking. Jassas, a Hanafi exponent, had no difficulty, therefore, in arguing that the Sunnah could be abrogated by the Qur’an and the Qur'an could be abrogated by the Sunnah. However, they could not be abrogated by khabr al-wahid. Further, khabr al-wahid as an addition to the Qur'an cannot be accepted.(23)

The naskh implied that the later command abrogated the earlier. Sarakhsi says: "The contradiction between the sources is impossible, since this would mean Divine fallibility; in actuality the contradiction is created by our human inability to estimate correctly the date of the texts. Once this has been done, however, the later abrogates the earlier."(24)

Among other principles of the naskh, one ofthem is very important. Once the date has been established, the nasikh verse or hadith became easy to be traced. Reports from the Companions and Successors are also decisive in the process of distinguishing the nasikh from the mansukh. This indicates that the naskh as a principle was alleged to have been accepted during the lifetime of the Companions. Jassas' final criterion for determining the nasikh from the mansukh isthat of ijma'. However, ijma' itself cannot abrogate the ruling of the Qur’an and the Sunnah.

The principles of naskh were justified by referring to the wording of the Qur'anic verses II:106 and XVI:101. The verses were shown to provide sufficient grounds for the occurrence of the naskh. The two modes: naskh al-hukm duna al-tilawah and naskh al-tilawah duna al-hukm were forwarded by the jurists as they were directly related to the fiqh. The naskh was alleged to have worked within and between the sources, as they could not solve the seeming contradiction, though being informed of the dictum: "al-jama' yamna' al-naskh" (reconciliation rules out naskh).(25)

~ Notes and References ~
  1. Encydopaedia of Islam (4 vols.), London, 1924, vol. 4, P. 1655.
  2. Abu Yusuf, Kitab al-Kharaj, Cairo, 1352/1933. According to Khatib Baghdadi, Abu Yusuf was the first person to compose a book on Usul Talrikh Baghdad (14 vols.), Beirut, n.d., vol. 4, p. 246. According to Schacht, "The statement of Khatib Baghdadi, that Abu Yusuf was the first to compose books on the theory Of law on the basis of the doctrine of Abu Hanifah, is not confirmed by the old sources". "The Origins of Muhammadan Jurisprudence", Oxford, 1929, p. 133.
  3. Ibn al-Nadim, al-Fihrist (2 vols.), London, 1970, vol. 1, p. 506.
  4. Shafi’i, al-Risalah, Cairo, 1358/1939.
  5. Saidullah Qazi, Principles of Muslim Jurisprudence, Lahore, 1981, p.2; al-Karakhi's Usul is published as a supplement to al-Dabusi's Tasts al-Nazar, Cairo, n.d., quoted by Shehaby, N., "'illah and Qiyas in early Islamic legal theory", J.A.O.S./, 1982, p. 27.
  6. Khudari, Usul al-fiqh, Beirut, 1969, p. 10.
  7. Sarakhsi, Usul (2 vol.), Haiderabad, 1372/1952, vol. 2, pp. 53-8.
  8. Zaid, M., al-Naskh fi’l Qur’an al-Karim (2 vols.), Cairo, 1383/1963, vol. 1, p. 82.
  9. Usul al-Jassas (Manuscript Dar al-Kutub al-Misriyya, Cairo), fol. 139b.
  10. Abu Yusuf, Kitab al-Athar, Haiderabad, 1355/1936, p. 14; Jassas, Ahkam, vol. 2, p. 425.
  11. Shaybani, Kitab al-Siyar al-Kabir, ed., M. Khadduri, Maryland, 1966, p. 94.
  12. A. Rippen, Naskh al-Quran and the problem of early Tafsir Texts, Bulletin, S.O.A.S. Nov. 1984, p. 25; Malik, Muwa'tta’, vol. 1, p. 299, vol. 2, p. 765.
  13. Hamadhani, Al-I’tibar Matba'al-Andulus, Hims, 1386/1986, p. 50.
  14. Ibid.
  15. Usul al-Jassas, fol. 115a..
  16. Ibid.
  17. Al-Risalah, p. 106.
  18. Usu1 al-Jassas, fol. 152a.
  19. Ghazzali, Mustafa (2 vols.), Bulaq, 1322/1904, vol. 2, p. 125. Also see Tabari's Tafsir on al-Qur'an, II:106.
  20. Usul al-Jassas, fol. 127b.
  21. Usul, vol. 2, p. 81.
  22. Tafsir, vol. 7, p. 30.
  23. Usul al-Jassas, fol.143a.
  24. Usul, vol. 2, p. 12.
  25. I’tibar, p. 6.
 
Before you go, I have an honest question to ask of you.
What do you believe will happen to Muslims when Christ returns and why do you believe that?

I think there will have to be a correction. This correction must only come from God, because it cannot come from other men. I have a feeling the only ones going to that particular party, are those who wanted to know God more than they wanted their next breath - in truth.

This is true of Muslims AND Christians AND Jews. Not just one group... we are all so messed up right now, and have all come so far from what God wanted us to know of HIM, and so far from the life He tried to give us.

However, I think God will, in his infinite mercy, forgive some for our sins. But this I cannot say I know for sure.

We are about to go down a very bad road, and all our ego's are taking us there. I prayed crying to God - begging him to take my life instead of allowing all this to happen, and in the end God said "No, that they have made their choice."

Who will be forgiven, only those who love God - real love, not this fake love people think of ... not this, "Oh I get to kill another human being" kind of love... that is evil, and love of it.
 
Chris1~
Yes, I admit to having visited anti-Muslim websites. Yet, most of my information comes from a Palistinian Christian who speaks Arabic and understands the Muslim mind-set because he was born, raised and lived under their rule for many decades before coming to America. He has always been persecuted by Muslims and is very grateful to be in America living with freedom.

Your angry outburst is typical of many Muslims who are confronted with any criticism of their faith. It's almost as if they are afraid that if they don't aggressively address any criticism of Islam, that they will be considered to be non-believers in the Muslim communities; thereby endangering their life. If you truly have converted to Christianity, I hope you will ask Jesus to change your heart from anger to peaceful tolerance of criticism of Islam, trusting that Jesus is perfectly capable of defending Christianity, and leaving Mohammed to defend Islam.

I hope you don't leave the forum. You are needed here.


Your right I am angry. I am angry at all of us. I have seen the outcome of this and it is horrifying. But I'm angry at myself moreso, because I DO know and still cannot change anything.

But God is right you know... we made our choices. It's living with them that will be more difficult....
 
It would not be that difficult for someone to quote a dozen scriptures from the Bible that would make Christians seem like nasty people. Things like genocide. I think you really have to look at how the establishment interprets the Koran as a whole in order to make a judgment on the faith. You will find that most Islamic clergy has reasonable, albeit very pious, beliefs about most life issues.
Are you speaking to the actual words written in the Quran? Just wanting clarification.

Are you leaving because I posted the words in the Muslim bible which gives them direction in life and them seem to be following those direction?

Should we ignore such things and pretend that all is ell and no one is being killed in the name of allah?
That's why context is so important.

Major - can you provide the context to those quotes?
 
That's why context is so important.

Major - can you provide the context to those quotes?

Absolutely sir. I took them out of the copy of the Quran on my desk right now. I had highlighted the verses which spoke of violence several years ago. Anyone can go to any Muslim web site and copy and paste the directions found there. Some just gave me a copy many years ago as a gift and I still use it in cases just like this.
I think there will have to be a correction. This correction must only come from God, because it cannot come from other men. I have a feeling the only ones going to that particular party, are those who wanted to know God more than they wanted their next breath - in truth.

This is true of Muslims AND Christians AND Jews. Not just one group... we are all so messed up right now, and have all come so far from what God wanted us to know of HIM, and so far from the life He tried to give us.

However, I think God will, in his infinite mercy, forgive some for our sins. But this I cannot say I know for sure.

We are about to go down a very bad road, and all our ego's are taking us there. I prayed crying to God - begging him to take my life instead of allowing all this to happen, and in the end God said "No, that they have made their choice."

Who will be forgiven, only those who love God - real love, not this fake love people think of ... not this, "Oh I get to kill another human being" kind of love... that is evil, and love of it.

I would say that the ones forgiven will be and have been those who come to Christ for their sins to be washed away.
 
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Also, more as a side note, but it is BECAUSE I believe in Islam, that I stand here today. It is Islam, and no other, that brought me to this place. See... I figured it all out. I understand everything now... and without Islam, I could never have understood.

I am a Christian, BECAUSE I was first a Muslim.

You may hate Islam and Muslims... but there was a reason it had to be this way... and there is a really really good reason for Satan to want that reason hidden. He is doing a good job of it too... hiding the truth of it all.

But he cannot hide it from everyone.

I wish I had a clue to what you are saying but alas I do not. I am glad that you are now a Christian but the truth should NOT make you angry. Sad, maybe but more than that you should rejoice that God has called you out of a religion that has no SON of God to forgive you of your sins!!

I hate no one and have given absolutely no indication I do. All I did was post the verse from the Quran that say Muslim followers are to be violent.

Eveyone with a Quran knows that to be true.
 
Chris1~
Yes, I admit to having visited anti-Muslim websites. Yet, most of my information comes from a Palistinian Christian who speaks Arabic and understands the Muslim mind-set because he was born, raised and lived under their rule for many decades before coming to America. He has always been persecuted by Muslims and is very grateful to be in America living with freedom.

Your angry outburst is typical of many Muslims who are confronted with any criticism of their faith. It's almost as if they are afraid that if they don't aggressively address any criticism of Islam, that they will be considered to be non-believers in the Muslim communities; thereby endangering their life. If you truly have converted to Christianity, I hope you will ask Jesus to change your heart from anger to peaceful tolerance of criticism of Islam, trusting that Jesus is perfectly capable of defending Christianity, and leaving Mohammed to defend Islam.

I hope you don't leave the forum. You are needed here.

Well said my sister and I do agree with you.........
And that has been by observation as well. The expressed anger seems to be the method of operation done in order to intimidate Christians into silence.

I guess that works with some people......but not me.
 
The concept of abrogation in islam is a long and drawn out process. In the end, every school (madhab) disagrees to one extent or the other concerning abrogation, and every scholar disagrees with everyone else. Depending upon which scholar you listen to, you have some teaching only 1 verses was ever abrogated and some believe up to 500. (I personally think those who believe up to 500 are crazy, lazy, and just WANT it to be like that so they don't have to do much thinking!)

I personally only believe in the abrogation of 9 verses. The rest work hand in hand together... this is what I believe. This is how I was taught by scholars, and this is how I always taught Islam - as I was also a teacher.

In order for you to see how in depth this concept is, and how it originated from the scholars themselves, I will quote this:

Hanafi Doctrine of Naskh (Abrogation)

Hamdard Islamicus, Vol. 22 (1999) No. 3
by Dr. M. Akram Rana

In the usual classification of Muslim sciences, the usul al-fiqh isgenerally defined as the science of the proofs which lead to the establishment of legal standard.(1)

The usul had been the subject of study by jurists as attested by the fact that Abu Yusuf discusses certain aspects of it in his Kitab al-Kharaj(2) and Shaybani is reported to have written a book on the usul.(3) But this term had not yet acquired the technical meaning of a science dealing specifically with the sources of Islamic law. The Risalah,(4) a unique work in the literature of Islamic law, gave Shafi’i a name as the founder of the science of usul al-fiqh. Shafi’i was followed in his monumental work on the principles of jurisprudence by a Hanafi jurist, al-Karkhi, the teacher of al-Jassas. Although his treatment was very sketchy, it was a fruitful start in the field concerned.(5) Al-Karkhi was followed by Abu Bakr al-Jassas who wrote a comprehensive book about usul al-fiqh in which he explained the views of his teacher al-Karkhi.(6) The Usul al-Jassas, as a matter of fact, is the first systematic attempt ever made to describe the principles of Muslim jurisprudence. The late Hanafi works on the usul and particularly on al-Nasikh wa’l Mansukh give us clues that most of the ideas were borrowed from the Usul al-Jassas.(7) Mustafa Zaid,(8) an Egyptian Writer on the subject of al-Nasikh wa'l-Mansukh, states that definition of naskh by Jassas was followed for five centuries. Jassas included in his Usul the views who do and do not believe in the theory of Naskh. The views of his fellow Hanafites like 'Isa b. Aban are also explained. Further, he presented Karkhi's views and remarked that Karkhi's opinions were clearer than those of 'Isa b. Aban's.(9) Records show that Jassas was an exponent of the Hanafi school and its acknowledged Usuli. The production of the Usul al-Jassas was intended to verify the fiqh of Imam Abu Hanifah. Jassas endeavoured to document the Hanafi views in the light of verses of the Qur'an and the ahadith of the Prophet (P.B.H.).

Abu Hanifah may here be mentioned as the founder of the system. He acquired much of his knowledge from Hammad b. Abi Sulaymain who is regarded as the pioneer of the Hanafi school. The fiqh of the Iraqi school was supported and established by the great pupils of Imam Abu Hanifah i.e., Abu Yusuf and Shaybani. At the request of caliph Harun al-Rasyid, the former compiled his Kitab al-Kharaj which, however, covers much wider ground than is indicated by its title. However, little is learnt about naskh from the book. Abu Yusuf maintains that the Sunnah can override the Qur'an. The abrogation of the Qur'anic injunction of ablution (al-Qur'an, V:6) by the wiping of the shoes is a case in point.(10) Shaybani, like his companion Abu Yusuf, did not discuss the principles of abrogation in detail although some instances of naskh are discussed in his works. Shaybani reported that the Prophet (P.B.H.) launched a campaign against. Al-Ta'if at the beginning of the sacred month of Muharram and continued it for forty days until he captured the city in the month of Safar. Shaybani then produced a report on the authority of Mujahid in which he had declared that the prohibition of fighting during the sacred months was abrogated. According to Mujahid, the prohibition of fighting during the sacred months as laid down in the Qur'an (11:217) was abrogated by God in another verse: "slay the Pagans wherever you may find them" (al-Qur’an, IX:5). When Shaybani that fighting during the sacred months, according to Kalbi, was not abrogated, he remarked that Kalbi's opinion was not to be followed.(11) This sort of report tells us that there was no agreed theory of naskh. It also informs us that there seems to be no agreement among the jurists on the incidence of naskh. The earlier works on fiqh and hadith show that the word naskh was not used frequently. In the Muwatta’ of Imam Malik the word naskh is mentioned only once. It is held that the Qur'anic injunction which prescribed the precise shares of the listed relatives of a deceased person (al-Qur’an, IV:11-12) abrogated the Qur'anic injunction concerning wasiyyah (al-Qur’an, 11:180). Imam Malik also indicated that the Qur'an could abrogate the Sunnah, but in this case he used the word taraka. He agreed with his teacher Zuhri on the point that the later command abrogated the earlier.(12)

The works on al-Nasikh wa'l-Mansukh reveal that there was no single reported instance in which the Prophet (P.B.H.) said explicitly that a certain ruling was abrogated. Hamadhani, however, records two versions in which the name of the Prophet (P.B.H.) was involved. 'Urwah b. Zubayr said: "I testify that ray father told me that the Prophet (P.B.H.) would make a statement and after a while, he would abrogate it by means of another statement just as the Qur’an abrogates other parts of the Qur’an". Ibn Baylmani reported on the authority of his father that ibn 'Umar heard from the Prophet (P.B.H.) who had said: "Some parts of my ahadith abrogate other parts of my ahadith". Hamadhani, after recording this hadith, argued that no one except ibn Baylmani had narrated this ahadith. Further, ibn Baylmani was not a reliable person and his hadith must not be accepted.(13)

Shafi’i, according to Hamadhani, was the first scholar who systematised the principles of naskh.(14) This reveals that principles of naskh were in operation. Before we present the Hanafi's views on abrogation and the arguments against and for the theory concerned presented by Jassas and documented by Sarakhsi, it would be extremely useful to see how Jassas settles the meaning of naskh.

The scholars disagreed concerning the meaning of naskh. Some said: "it refers to naql (transfer). They say: nasakha al-Kitab (He copied the book i.e., he transferred what was in, the original copy to another copy). Others said: it refers to ibtal (nullification). They say: nasakhat al-shams al-zill, (the sun removed the shade). Some of them said: naskh is zalah. They refer to nasakhat al-rih al-athar (The wind obliterated the traces). These words are close in meaning, and whatever naskh may mean in the language, when it is used for the abrogation of the ruling, it is used metaphorically." Jassas rejects all the possible meaning of naskh, derived from secular usage whether it refers to naql, ibtal or iza1ah.(15)

Jassas restricts discussion of the word naskh to the Shari’ah usage and remarks: "Naskh is the declaration of the time of the particular ruling which we thought would remain for ever, but the second ruling made it clear that the time of the ruling was for a certain period and it was now no longer valid."(16)

This meaning of naskh had not been defined by any of Jassas' predecessors, therefore, he was the first person to declare that naskh in the Shari’ah is the bayan of the duration of the ruling. This definition of naskh was adopted by Jassas in order to refute the views of those Muslim scholars who held that naskh, never occurred in the Shari’ah. It was also to refute those Jews who had declared that Moses had informed them that the Shari’ah of the Torah and working on the day of the Sabbath would never be abrogated. Thirdly, it was to refute the views of Shafi’i who had maintained that only the Qur'an superseded the Qur'an; only the Sunnah superseded the Sunnah. He claimed that they did not and could not supersede each other. The function of the Sunnah, he believes, is to follow what is laid down in the Qur'an. In support of his view he listed some Qur’anic verses which according to him clearly spoke about the abrogation of the Qur'an alone.(17) He refers the Qur'anic verses X:15 and II:106. His opponents interpreted the same verses to indicate that the Qur’an could be abrogated by the Sunnah, and the Sunnah could be abrogated by the Qur'an. According to Jassas, the Qur’an (11:106) indicated that naskh occurred in the Qur'an. It did not indicate that the Qur'anic verse would be abrogated by a better or similar Qur'anic verse, since nothing prevented as from understanding from the verse that abrogation might be achieved by the Sunnah which was revealed to the Prophet (P.B.H.), and this, he argued, was the precise meaning of the verses: "we bring better or like thereof("18.) God meant to state that He would make a ruling superior to the first in the sense of its being easier to perform, or richer in terms of reward.(19)

Concerning those, Muslim scholars who did not believe in the theory of naskh, Jassas stated: "Some of the modern scholars have asserted that there was no naskh in the Shari’ah of our Prophet (P.B.H.). The occurrence of naskh was merely an indication that laws of the previous prophets (A.S.) were abrogated like the Sabbath and facing towards the East or the West while praying. They had argued that our Prophet (P.B.H.) was the last of the prophets (A S.) and his Shari’ah was confirmed and everlasting until the day of judgement. The man (Abu Muslim al-Isfahani) who had held this view was endowed with knowledge of rhetoric and Arabic language, but he had no knowledge of jurisprudence and the principles of jurisprudence. Although it could not be doubted that he was perfect in faith, he deviated greatly from the right path by declaring this dogma, since no one had reported this before him. Our predecessors and their successors understood from the religion of God, that numerous rulings were abrogated from it; and they have narrated these reports in a way which could not be questioned. There are general, specific, confirmed and obscure passages in the Qur'an. The one who rejected the occurrence of naskh, rejected all its general, specific, confirmed and obscure commands because these categories all arrived in the same manner. This man had derived from the abrogated and abrogating verses, judgements which were excluded from the interpretations of our early scholars I (Jassas) could not understand from where he had obtained his information. However, I maintain that he had used his own judgement leaving aside the reports of the salaf. The Prophet (P.B.H.) had said: 'whoever interpreted the Qur'an by using his personal opinion, certainly committed a sin'."

Jassas' opponents quoted several passages from the Qur’an in order to show that abrogation or withdrawal of the verses was impossible; God said: 'We have without doubt, sent down the Message (Qur’an) and We will surely guard it (from corruption) (al-Qur’an, XV:9). God also said: "It is for us to collect it (the Qur’an) and to promulgate it: But when We have promulgated it, follow then its recital (as promulgated). Nay, more it is for Us to explain it (and make it clear)" (al-Qur'an, LXXV:17-19). The explicit meaning of the verses require that God would guard the Qur’an for ever and its implication is for the whole ummah because He did not specify the time or generation. God said: "...it (the Qur'an), is no less a Message for all creatures". (al-Qur'an, XII:104). God in this verse informed us that the whole Qur'an is a Message (or Reminder) and it confirms that there would be no abrogation of the wording, because what is abrogated or forgotten and did not reach us, would not be considered as a Message for the people.

Jassas explains away these verses by simply saying that they refer to something else. The verses do not prevent the possibility of the ruling being abrogated. In a similar vein, the verses do not prevent the possibility of the wording being abrogated, said Jasas.

The view that these verses do not prevent us from talking about the abrogation of the wording or ruling might mean that Jassas was dealing with the two phenomena of the naskh:
  1. Naskh al-tilawah duna al-hukm and
  2. Naskh al-hukm duna al-tilawah.

The first is adopted by Jassas in order to establish the ruling of kaffarat al-yamin which is imposed upon a believer who fails to fulfil his deliberate oath. The Hanafis argued that three days should be consecutive, because the wording mutatabi’at had existed in 'Abd Allah b. Mas’ud's reading.(20) Jassas and Sarakhsi claim that the wording was withdrawn while the ruling remained valid.(21) Tabari was also of the view that the keeper of the fast who has to expiate for the breaking of an oath should fast for three continuous days. There is no disagreement among the scholars that this will suffice; others disagree as to whether fasting on non-consecutive days will suffice as expiation.(22)

Shifi’i’s predecessors, both Hanafis and Malikis, allowed the abrogation of the Sunnah by the Qur'an and vice verse. For Shafi'i who had interpreted the verse No. 106 of the Surah al-Baqarah (No. II) in the light of the verse No. 10 of the Surah Nahl (No. XVI), it was very difficult to adopt the procedure. Shafi'i succeeded in his attempts and secured the place of the Sunnah as a source of law and the danger which had threatened it was no longer felt. Even the followers of Shafi’i, let alone the Hanafis and Malikis, felt free to, revert to pre-Shafi'i thinking. Jassas, a Hanafi exponent, had no difficulty, therefore, in arguing that the Sunnah could be abrogated by the Qur’an and the Qur'an could be abrogated by the Sunnah. However, they could not be abrogated by khabr al-wahid. Further, khabr al-wahid as an addition to the Qur'an cannot be accepted.(23)

The naskh implied that the later command abrogated the earlier. Sarakhsi says: "The contradiction between the sources is impossible, since this would mean Divine fallibility; in actuality the contradiction is created by our human inability to estimate correctly the date of the texts. Once this has been done, however, the later abrogates the earlier."(24)

Among other principles of the naskh, one ofthem is very important. Once the date has been established, the nasikh verse or hadith became easy to be traced. Reports from the Companions and Successors are also decisive in the process of distinguishing the nasikh from the mansukh. This indicates that the naskh as a principle was alleged to have been accepted during the lifetime of the Companions. Jassas' final criterion for determining the nasikh from the mansukh isthat of ijma'. However, ijma' itself cannot abrogate the ruling of the Qur’an and the Sunnah.

The principles of naskh were justified by referring to the wording of the Qur'anic verses II:106 and XVI:101. The verses were shown to provide sufficient grounds for the occurrence of the naskh. The two modes: naskh al-hukm duna al-tilawah and naskh al-tilawah duna al-hukm were forwarded by the jurists as they were directly related to the fiqh. The naskh was alleged to have worked within and between the sources, as they could not solve the seeming contradiction, though being informed of the dictum: "al-jama' yamna' al-naskh" (reconciliation rules out naskh).(25)

~ Notes and References ~
  1. Encydopaedia of Islam (4 vols.), London, 1924, vol. 4, P. 1655.
  2. Abu Yusuf, Kitab al-Kharaj, Cairo, 1352/1933. According to Khatib Baghdadi, Abu Yusuf was the first person to compose a book on Usul Talrikh Baghdad (14 vols.), Beirut, n.d., vol. 4, p. 246. According to Schacht, "The statement of Khatib Baghdadi, that Abu Yusuf was the first to compose books on the theory Of law on the basis of the doctrine of Abu Hanifah, is not confirmed by the old sources". "The Origins of Muhammadan Jurisprudence", Oxford, 1929, p. 133.
  3. Ibn al-Nadim, al-Fihrist (2 vols.), London, 1970, vol. 1, p. 506.
  4. Shafi’i, al-Risalah, Cairo, 1358/1939.
  5. Saidullah Qazi, Principles of Muslim Jurisprudence, Lahore, 1981, p.2; al-Karakhi's Usul is published as a supplement to al-Dabusi's Tasts al-Nazar, Cairo, n.d., quoted by Shehaby, N., "'illah and Qiyas in early Islamic legal theory", J.A.O.S./, 1982, p. 27.
  6. Khudari, Usul al-fiqh, Beirut, 1969, p. 10.
  7. Sarakhsi, Usul (2 vol.), Haiderabad, 1372/1952, vol. 2, pp. 53-8.
  8. Zaid, M., al-Naskh fi’l Qur’an al-Karim (2 vols.), Cairo, 1383/1963, vol. 1, p. 82.
  9. Usul al-Jassas (Manuscript Dar al-Kutub al-Misriyya, Cairo), fol. 139b.
  10. Abu Yusuf, Kitab al-Athar, Haiderabad, 1355/1936, p. 14; Jassas, Ahkam, vol. 2, p. 425.
  11. Shaybani, Kitab al-Siyar al-Kabir, ed., M. Khadduri, Maryland, 1966, p. 94.
  12. A. Rippen, Naskh al-Quran and the problem of early Tafsir Texts, Bulletin, S.O.A.S. Nov. 1984, p. 25; Malik, Muwa'tta’, vol. 1, p. 299, vol. 2, p. 765.
  13. Hamadhani, Al-I’tibar Matba'al-Andulus, Hims, 1386/1986, p. 50.
  14. Ibid.
  15. Usul al-Jassas, fol. 115a..
  16. Ibid.
  17. Al-Risalah, p. 106.
  18. Usu1 al-Jassas, fol. 152a.
  19. Ghazzali, Mustafa (2 vols.), Bulaq, 1322/1904, vol. 2, p. 125. Also see Tabari's Tafsir on al-Qur'an, II:106.
  20. Usul al-Jassas, fol. 127b.
  21. Usul, vol. 2, p. 81.
  22. Tafsir, vol. 7, p. 30.
  23. Usul al-Jassas, fol.143a.
  24. Usul, vol. 2, p. 12.
  25. I’tibar, p. 6.
Chris1~
I honestly didn't read all your post here. It is way too complex with many foreign words and is not in layman's language. Forgive my limited skill there. I can only say you must be happy that Christianity has no abrogation of verses and is a much simpler concept to study. We receive assured salvation based on our faith only and not works, believing that Jesus is the Son of God and that He died for our sins. He overcame sin and death with His physical resurrection and now sits at the right hand of God, waiting for his enemies to be made his footstool. Because of His death, we get to live.

I'm really happy you have found salvation through Jesus Christ and I will be praying for your spiritual growth, as I hope you will be praying for me as well.
 
Why are Muslims fond of "jihad" or religious battle? I think Christians are not; they just do their own way.

The twentieth century is the history of Christian, Communist, Jewish, and Muslim terrorists. Should I add Nazis to the list? I go to school with Muslims and probably people of six or seven other religions. I think the Muslim students have a difficult time because some of our teachers are Christians or Hindus who have been abused by Muslims terrorists. I sat between two Muslim boys in my physics class last year. They were late entering the school. I met them on September 11. It was soooo ... bizarre.

I think everybody has a jihad. Life is a struggle.
 
Also, more as a side note, but it is BECAUSE I believe in Islam, that I stand here today. It is Islam, and no other, that brought me to this place. See... I figured it all out. I understand everything now... and without Islam, I could never have understood.

I am a Christian, BECAUSE I was first a Muslim.

You may hate Islam and Muslims... but there was a reason it had to be this way... and there is a really really good reason for Satan to want that reason hidden. He is doing a good job of it too... hiding the truth of it all.

But he cannot hide it from everyone.
Can't believe it, I got it right joining this site because people are so knowledgeable about the topic.
 
The twentieth century is the history of Christian, Communist, Jewish, and Muslim terrorists. Should I add Nazis to the list? I go to school with Muslims and probably people of six or seven other religions. I think the Muslim students have a difficult time because some of our teachers are Christians or Hindus who have been abused by Muslims terrorists. I sat between two Muslim boys in my physics class last year. They were late entering the school. I met them on September 11. It was soooo ... bizarre.

I think everybody has a jihad. Life is a struggle.
Can't believe it, I got it right joining this site because people are so knowledgeable about the topic.
 
Chris1~
I honestly didn't read all your post here. It is way too complex with many foreign words and is not in layman's language. Forgive my limited skill there. I can only say you must be happy that Christianity has no abrogation of verses and is a much simpler concept to study. We receive assured salvation based on our faith only and not works, believing that Jesus is the Son of God and that He died for our sins. He overcame sin and death with His physical resurrection and now sits at the right hand of God, waiting for his enemies to be made his footstool. Because of His death, we get to live.

I'm really happy you have found salvation through Jesus Christ and I will be praying for your spiritual growth, as I hope you will be praying for me as well.
Can't believe it, I feel great in joining this site because people are so knowledgeable about the topic.
 
Before you go, I have an honest question to ask of you.
What do you believe will happen to Muslims when Christ returns and why do you believe that?
If Christ punished people for believing in the "wrong" religion, he'd be punishing almost everyone.
I think people regardless of their faith will be judged by their fruit.
 
That is of course your opinion. I have to disagree with you as I have never witnessed a Catholic priest beheading a Muslim believer.
When I do, I am sure I will change my thinking.

Are you kidding me?

Ever hear of the Crusades or Inquisition?

Need I mention the KKK?
 
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