By the way........welcome to the site Grappler!
Are We Any Better Than The Pharisees?
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By the way........welcome to the site Grappler!
Me tooo!
I agree that nobody is "partially saved". Nobody has said anything about being "partially saved", the term used is "partially converted". That's a misdirection. Partially converted would still be completely lost. "Partial Conversion" seems to obviously be referring to the lost, not the saved unless I'm completely misreading the context used. Those who walk into the church, act like "Christians", show up on Sundays, claim to be Christians because their friend's are, Some of them even believe they are saved, probably most of them. They have been partially converted to the right way of thinking, but they have not in any way been saved, partially, completely, or otherwise.
So after much thought I answered my own question:
No, we are not any better than the Pharisees. We are ALL a bunch of dirty rotten sinners, the only 'good' thing about us is Christ. Nothing else.
No, we are not any better than the Pharisees. We are ALL a bunch of dirty rotten sinners, the only 'good' thing about us is Christ. Nothing else.
Thanks.
Speak for yourself.
It seems to me that a lot of people who use scripture have rally no idea what it says...what we have been given it for.
For some to argue that because there is no mention of the ubiquitous pharisee at any given venue is proof that they were not there beggars belief.
With a sect of Jews dedicated to the assassination of Jesus, the balance of probability is that they, or at least one was tailing Jesus and reporting back to the priests.
And I will say this as well.......the account given by Jesus about those who are rejected in no way speaks as some 'ventriloquists' try to make it say. So, let's start with Jesus' plain words here and apply it with spirit to the rejection of those whom Jesus 'never knew'
John 15:5 I am the vine; you are the branches. Whoever abides in me and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing.
Rhetorical question #1. Can it be that Jesus never knew the branches of His vine? For being apart from the vine as strangers are, they can do nothing.
Now, to refresh memories; the much discussed conversation::::
Matt 7:21 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
Matt 7:22 On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?'
Matt 7:23 And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.'
OK, many things can be said about this, but we need to take note that Jesus never ones sinks to the low level of disputing with them. He not once concedes their claim..........to quote/refer to their lies as "Jesus' words" is an astonishing feat of ventriloquism. Those words are most certainly not what the 'word of God (Jesus)' says. These people have gone though life doing works (probably) in their own name, not Jesus' name.
It doesn't matter one iota what they claim, Jesus never knew them (as His own). They could not ever have been partially converted or have partially believed......not believed in the salvation sense, or Jesus would have at least partially known them. But that is not what He says to them is it.
As for referring to Jesus as Lord, it is quite possibly idiomatic of the age. What do you call anyone with a bigger stick than you have?
It is no sense indicative of a life lived in submission to the will of the Father.As for the parable of the seeds, seeds that fall on rocky unproductive ground are 'still born' They survive on what nutrient content was contained within. when that nutrition is used up the seed dies. Let no one be confused here...the seed is the word of God, not the person who is likened to rocky ground. Speaking to the disciples after the parable, Jesus explains...
Luke 8:11 Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.
The rocky ground was/is never even partially productive of anything but exhausted seed.
Grappler, I'm not lecturing you BTW, just supporting your stance.
However, for you, a word of caution. There are and have been some here who never really come out and say what they think or mean. Instead they might twist the words of others and frame non germane questions....questions about what was not ever stated.
Nope, never said all those things that you imagined that I said. Wow talk about reading too much into something.
Is that something that you normally do?Excellant my brother! I agree completly!
"calvin" said.............
"Matt 7:22 On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?'
Matt 7:23 And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.'
OK, many things can be said about this, but we need to take note that Jesus never ones sinks to the low level of disputing with them. He not once concedes their claim..........to quote/refer to their lies as "Jesus' words" is an astonishing feat of ventriloquism. Those words are most certainly not what the 'word of God (Jesus)' says. These people have gone though life doing works (probably) in their own name, not Jesus' name.
It doesn't matter one iota what they claim, Jesus never knew them (as His own). They could not ever have been partially converted or have partially believed......not believed in the salvation sense, or Jesus would have at least partially known them. But that is not what He says to them is it.
Absolutely correct!
Then calvin said.............
"As for the parable of the seeds, seeds that fall on rocky unproductive ground are 'still born' They survive on what nutrient content was contained within. when that nutrition is used up the seed dies. Let no one be confused here...the seed is the word of God, not the person who is likened to rocky ground. Speaking to the disciples after the parable, Jesus explains...
Luke 8:11 Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.
The rocky ground was/is never even partially productive of anything but exhausted seed."
Again.......absolutely correct!!!
Good stuff calvin!!!!!
"Matt 7:22 On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?'
Matt 7:23 And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.'
OK, many things can be said about this, but we need to take note that Jesus never ones sinks to the low level of disputing with them. He not once concedes their claim..........to quote/refer to their lies as "Jesus' words" is an astonishing feat of ventriloquism. Those words are most certainly not what the 'word of God (Jesus)' says. These people have gone though life doing works (probably) in their own name, not Jesus' name.
It doesn't matter one iota what they claim, Jesus never knew them (as His own). They could not ever have been partially converted or have partially believed......not believed in the salvation sense, or Jesus would have at least partially known them. But that is not what He says to them is it.
Absolutely correct!
Then calvin said.............
"As for the parable of the seeds, seeds that fall on rocky unproductive ground are 'still born' They survive on what nutrient content was contained within. when that nutrition is used up the seed dies. Let no one be confused here...the seed is the word of God, not the person who is likened to rocky ground. Speaking to the disciples after the parable, Jesus explains...
Luke 8:11 Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.
The rocky ground was/is never even partially productive of anything but exhausted seed."
Again.......absolutely correct!!!
Good stuff calvin!!!!!
where did I say anything about nice churches?
How could I? I was dead in my sins and trespasses. Eph 2:1
All that I did was of my flesh, which thinking I carried with my after my conversion (which was a radical change of lifestyle for me, bad habits were removed overnight and I now wanted to live a holy life) which after I came here Father knocked the wind out of my sails with a very explicit teaching lesson of Zech 4:6 that I've never forgotten.
I think your use of the words "partial conversion" in you question is is a bad choice of words. Here is the definition of conversion from Webster's 1829 dictionary.
In a theological or moral sense, a change of heart, or dispositions, in which the enmity of the heart to God and his law and the obstinacy of the will are subdued, and are succeeded by supreme love to God and his moral government, and a reformation of life.
Using that definition we can see those that hear Jesus say "I never knew you," were never "converted," partially or completely, they were doing what they claimed to be doing in their own human power, and notice Jesus never confirmed any of their actions as real, but was in essence saying, they were of your own vain imaginations, which I've seen, and no doubt all participating on this thread also, prophesying, exorcisms and other weirdness in the name of the Holy Spirit, both here in Tahiti and in America and sad to say, even in reading some of the claims during the short time I've been here at CFS.
Gene
No Rusty, I'm not the one "saying," it's Scripture that says they are fake, how could someone still in their sin use the "power" of the Holy Spirit? Just look at the seven sons of Sceva, Acts 19 for a scriptural account of people trying to evoke the Name of Jesus in their own power.
And where do you read they are a "concern" to Christ? The verse states they came to Him, so "when" is this happening?
Gene
Acts 19
Where does the Word say they are using the power of the Devil, please cite the verses, didn't Jesus refute this ideology when He said to the pharisees," if satan is working against himself his kingdom will fall." Luke 11:18
Gene
Lol.....could you be little more clear on what exactly you are talking about? You are beginning to bore me.
Bro, it's your topic, why should I be the one to start the thread, besides, I'm not confused about the subject.
Blessings,
Gene
Thanks you for the courtesy, however, I'm too busy with work to start a thread, I wouldn't be able to give it the attention it would need and besides I wouldn't know what subject to start a thread about.
Gene
Gene
Why are we, just like the pharisees, wrangling over words? Nobody is saying a partially converted person is saved or partially saved. Everyone agrees that such a person is lost.
Dirty posed a question in his OP and, as he said in post #106, that question has been answered. The evidence is in this thread itself. But, of course, everyone thinks it's the other guy who's the pharisee. Who is the one who went home justified, the one who pointed out others' sins, or the one who looked squarely at his own? In any case, since the question has been answered, time to close this thread.
Dirty posed a question in his OP and, as he said in post #106, that question has been answered. The evidence is in this thread itself. But, of course, everyone thinks it's the other guy who's the pharisee. Who is the one who went home justified, the one who pointed out others' sins, or the one who looked squarely at his own? In any case, since the question has been answered, time to close this thread.
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