Are You Watching Or Being Foolish?

Stan

Stan

Matthew 25:1-13 ONE of the Olivet parables/prophecies.

What exactly is Jesus saying by this parable?
What does it mean to have our lamps trimmed and filled with oil?
What are we supposed to be watching for and why?
 
No doubt they all go together as Jesus taught them all at the same time, but I think there is a specific message to this section of scripture. Verses 14-30 is a different parable showing a different outcome, one of productiveness with the gifts God has given us, whatever they may be.
I have NO answers on this. I am willing to learn with all those who want to examine this scripture.
My questions were sincere, NOT loaded ones.
 
Matthew 25:4
" but the prudent took oil in flasks along with their lamps."

IMO, I will equate Lamp, with Light, with good deeds, with Love…

Thus, not only our dealing with people filled with Love, but to carry on for extra mile = Patience.

If we are teachers: patience to teach….

If we are students: to exert effort to listen.

If we are parent: it is easy to provide material things…. what is more loving is spending time with them..

I read somewhere that evil is equated with idleness… being lazy….rather than pride.

I tend to agree…. Love is an effort.
 
On a side note:
I think there is a world of difference between a false teacher…… and a student who heard a false teaching, seeking confirmation...and a student who heard a false teaching trying to teach : )

That is, with loving teachers here in this forum to extend time, patience and effort to correct…
Precisely why I think teachers will be judge more strictly….

James 3:1
“My brethren, let not many of you become teachers, knowing that we shall receive a stricter judgment”
 
Rusty said:
Sweet thought/sentiment,,,,but where is your biblical evidence that oil (the real point of the symbolism) means "love"?
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I equate the LAMP with LIGHT with LOVE
I think the oil symbolizes nothing (in the parable at least)
… it is the effort of the prudent that is being symbolized….

The reason i put it in red: because what the OP mentioned is lamp is filled only... there is a flask/vessel carried for the extra oil....
 
Rusty said:
I ask again....where in the Word is this equation of yours located? I can't find it.
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which one: OIL?

i equate the LAMP with LIGHT, then GOOD DEEDS, then LOVE.

ok, not OIL, sorry because you said ask again...

ok here it is:

Matthew 5:14
14 “You are the light of the world. A city set on a [f]hill cannot be hidden; 15 nor does anyone light a lamp and put it under a [g]basket, but on the lampstand, and it gives light to all who are in the house. 16 Let your light shine before men in such a way that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in heaven.
 
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Rusty said:
Well.....Can't recall any "loaded questions" from you, Stan.
Let's look at the results of the surrounding parables both in the 24 chapter and the one you mention in 25: 14~30 as well as the virgins waiting for the Bridegroom:
Servants, virgins....not unbeleivers....
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Yep I see the distinction. Jesus was talking to His disciples so I would assume He would use people they could relate to such as other believers.
My understanding is that type of event or ritual was normal for Jewish weddings. They were held at night and the virgins would lead the bridegroom to where the Bride was so they needed well trimmed lamps. I also see that the groom being delayed is evident today in the delay of Jesus' return.

I think one aspect is in verse 1 where Jesus says; "At THAT time, the kingdom of heaven will be LIKE 10 Virgins...., 5 wise and 5 foolish."
So how are believers wise and foolish based on this parable?

Unprepared. Lack of fore-thought. The difference is the foolish did NOT take extra oil. To have that responsibility and NOT prepare for every eventuality, is termed foolish by Jesus. The responsibility was to light the way for the groom to where the Bride was. It is a given He didn't know where that was, but is that important or is their lighting the way the ONLY issue here?
Maybe the issue is that the 5 foolish we locked out of the wedding? After all they could get to the wedding with only 5 lamps one would presume. Verse 12 and 13 seems rather harsh, but IF you take the view that the 5 foolish virgins were not real believers, but only went along as a lark , a thing to do or peer pressure, then it would seem, that their commitment to do this thing was NOT genuine and the groom realized this when they weren't there to greet him.
 
Yes I see that, but it doesn't mean it represented ONLY believers. Maybe the first thing to establish is WHAT is the kingdom of heaven? We need to keep within the context of the Olivet discourses.
I don't know why Jesus used VIRGINS for the people in this parable, other than it was the common practice of the day to do so. I'm sure their virginal status is irrelevant. Maybe you see something I don't?
 
Rusty said:
Yes I do see the virgin status as VERY significant.
First to the Jewish mind a young maiden, a virgin, is the highest example of pure love and undivided devotion. In the OT, a non-virgin man was no big deal, no laws were imposed against him in the Mosaic laws (that I am aware of) BUT the defiled non virgin woman is a symbol of all thinks evil, divisive and unfaithful (Jezebel, Delilah etc.)

Therefore, Christ I think is using this example of the pure undivided lovers of Christ's return very pointedly. However, he is also underlining that these very devoted "virgins" are some not so wise and some wise...I see this as pointing to His Church. The virgins point to His People in these last days.

So all we need to see is what the lamp and oil represent, then we can see the meaning of who was foolish and why.
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There may also be a significance to Rev 7 and 14 where the male virgins are called out to witness to Israel, by I digress.
 
Rusty said:
Yes there is a definite connection, but I do not see this as a sexual matter even there.

But...no comment on my last post?
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Sorry I'm not sure what you mean by NOT a sexual matter. That is exactly what a virgin is. NO sexual activity.

I didn't see anything else that needed or required commenting on Rusty.
 
To me they are representative of believers waiting for Jesus' return. He calls them wise and foolish.
What is of more import to me is WHAT the Kingdom of Heaven is? It is ONLY used in Matthew.
Yes the groom I see as Christ, but that does raise an interesting point. Who is the Bride?
 
Rusty said:
Ok....Great! We are in agreement here. If the 10 virgins are believers, not merely sexual innocent ones, than in the NT, especially prophecy, it is the same thing....believers.

Hmmm....many exclusive phrases/events are used only by one Gospel. I question whether that is significant.

Instead of extrapolating about the Kingdom, let's investigate what the foolishness of some of the believers, the meaning of the shortage of oil and what that means......THEN perhaps the idea of the Kingdom will be clearer.
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I would like to pursue the kingdom of heaven meaning as well, but as to the others I believe the oil is inconsequential. The foolishness is known going into the parable based on the known outcome. Not being ready is a key. What does Jesus mean when He says "stay alert"? How do we stay alert. Why does it matter that we stay alert?
 
Rusty said:
I showed to aha (who has vanished) what the lamp means in Scripture, as far as I can ascertain.

Did you see my verses about the lamp, above?
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Lamp, it gives light…
Thus, can we relate/look for symbolism for light?
Thus, I quoted in the same book of Matthew, that followers of Christ as “light of the world”
Matthew 5:14

On a side note:
"Lamp" to "light"….. am using logic here : )

I have “objection” on how “logic” or “reason” is being “demeaned” from time to time : )
· Logic is a process to organize thought.
· It follows rule: a premise.
· A premise is an assumption to be valid or truth, so as conclusion can be arrived.
· What can be more valid premise with using Bible verse … the Bible speaks the truth!

I agree we use bible verses in our study, man using his own standard of what is good and what is bad: that is unguided/subjective thinking…. thus, we use the Bible….

Although I agree that we do not use solely logic: the devil knows how to quote the scripture as well, as we can see in the Temptation of Christ.
 
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Rusty said:
My friend: the parable about being ready hinges on what the lamp and oil mean: if the lack of oil, the trimming of the lamp, the night, the sleep were unimportant, God would not even brought them up.

Everything has to do with what the lamp and oil mean.

I showed to aha (who has vanished) what the lamp means in Scripture, as far as I can ascertain.

Did you see my verses about the lamp, above?

The whole point of waiting in the night with a filled lamp and extra oil is crucial to the parable.

No lamp, no or not enough oil, leaves some believers outside the wedding feast, so I do not think by a long stretch it is unimportant.
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I don't see that Rusty. A parable has a moral or a SINGLE message. By using an analogy like Jesus does he also makes a point, BE READY. The oil, lamps and virgins are props that people of His day would clearly understand and identify with as this was a common occurrence for weddings.
Now some may see the oil as the Holy Spirit and we need to be constantly filled with the Holy Spirit. You could make an argument for that, BUT why would the virgins have the Holy Spirit in SEPARATE containers, and not just a full lamp?
You also can't go somewhere else to buy the Holy Spirit.
Is this message simply about being adequately prepared, and what is adequately, or being prepared?
Remember this parable had to reach those of Jesus' day, but ALSO, He said "hearing they may not hear", Luke 8:10
 
aha said:
Although I agree that we do not use solely logic: the devil knows how to quote the scripture as well, as we can see in the Temptation of Christ.
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Actually IF you read everything in the Bible that the devil quoted, it is NOT 100% verbatim/accurate.
He is the great equivocator.
 
Those are your words Rusty not mine. I didn't say useless. They are integral to the parable as a means of imparting reality. Jesus wouldn't use props that had no meaning. Just as He did in 14028 with the bags of gold. Here they clearly show using what God has entrusted to us. Single meaning. Use it or lose it! Easily understood.
So here Jesus says THEREFORE, keep watch. I guess you can only do so if you have plenty of oil. So, to be prepared, how much oil do you need? One container extra, or two or three? How many did the five wise virgins take?
Jesus told the Peter, James and John the very same thing in the very next chapter here in v38...WATCH.
 
Inconsequential because it is has no meaning within the parable, but integral as a required component to make the parable a realistic scenario.

Words that could be used would be;
exiguous
immaterial
inappreciable
insignificant
 
Rusty said:
But the props are the MAIN POINT of the parable.
Why do they need light? Because it is dark! Are we speaking of literal darkness or spiritual darkness? Spiritual.
Of course the wise had full flasks....why else would they say:
No one shares oil from a lit lamp!
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No, the MAIN point is being prepared. The props are used to convey that message.
Traditionally, this event ALWAYS took place in the evening.
The oil was from the EXTRA containers they brought. The point is they all started out with the same full lamps but the wise took extra oil, they went prepared. Trimming or preparing their lamps happened AFTER they heard the shout at midnight. that the groom was arriving.
 
Well that is definitely your way of seeing it and I can see why, I just don't see it. I see PREPAREDNESS as the point of the parable. I believe you probably mean WITHOUT the Spirit as far as knowing prophecy is concerned?

I don't think the preparedness has anything to do with the Word of God, but more to do with the preparedness Jesus depicted in Matthew 24:43. That preparedness is in our heart, not in what we know. The sheep are prepared, the goats are not.
 
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