Army Briefing Labels Evangelical Christians As A Terror Threat

I think it should be said that while I disagree with folks who promote more government involvement, I don't hold them in contempt. I think their hearts are in the right place, I think they are meaning to look out for the common good, and I think they genuinely care. I think you genuinely care, RiverJordon.

It's just a matter of disagreement of how these things can be achieved. I certainly had my Progressive Liberal days where I thought govt. was the best way to look out for the common good, but I suppose I had a pretty drastic change of heart.

I think people assume i'm a Randian. I wouldn't say I am. While I agree with Ayn Rand on the concept of incentives and the Adam Smith notion of the invisible hand, she was very anti-charity/anti-altruism/etc. People have proven themselves to be extremely charitable (even after taxes), and have given so much more than govt. was even able to fill.

But I'll be honest...my biggest concern is with the Federal Reserve, because it's the number one means for them to be able to finance unjust wars. And I think these things are ultimately what really hurts the family. I'm very concerned with our foreign involvement and would like to see the troops come home to their families. The divorce rate among soldiers and their wives/husbands is at an all-time high. Many of their kids won't ever get to see them come back home. Many of their relationships fall apart because their soldier parents are often having to leave them. Their finances are often in distress. Many soldiers are coming home alive, but are then being lost to suicide.

So war might be my biggest concern of all these political concerns.
 
Lysander,

I don't have any animosity towards you either. I just don't agree with your views. In our history, whenever we've moved towards a laissez faire system, it has proven to be unsustainable. Like I said earlier, a system that is based on winners and losers and also "lets the chips fall where they may" will always ultimately end up with a small number of extreme winners and a huge number of extreme losers. Every time.
 
Lysander,

I don't have any animosity towards you either. I just don't agree with your views. In our history, whenever we've moved towards a laissez faire system, it has proven to be unsustainable. Like I said earlier, a system that is based on winners and losers and also "lets the chips fall where they may" will always ultimately end up with a small number of extreme winners and a huge number of extreme losers. Every time.

No worries.
Yes, this is a common thing taught in schools, however it's something I tend to disagree with. Often times, schools subscribe to the Keynesian School of economics and neglect the Austrian business cycle theory (which is why events like the Forgotten Depression of 1920 is almost always written out of history books).

No matter. We shall agree to disagree on this. :)
 
Wow, interesting thread. Thank you all for your input.

One thing I see happening in the U.S. is minority rules, when it used to be majority rules. Where small groups are able to get things changed for their benefit. It would seem, IMO, that the majority is getting lackadaisical in speaking up towards their beliefs. This 'politically correct' term in hopes of not offending anyone, IMO, is partially to blame.

Church and state should go together, but it doesn't. So they take prayer out of school by a small group. A big mistake IMO.

It's like, he/she that speaks louder gets their way.

Which brings me to this question- If you're not blessed, then what are you?

Let me add that I don't believe people should compete with anyone else, that it breeds animosity. I believe that we should challenge ourselves. Why I believe this, because when Jesus comes back and sets up the coming Kingdom, I don't think there will be competition. And that will be His perfect government where church and state merge.

Disclaimer: These are the views and opinions of dUmPsTeR and they may not reflect those of this site, or participants there in. This statement was intended to bring a smile on your face, and little more than that.
 
Wow, interesting thread. Thank you all for your input.

One thing I see happening in the U.S. is minority rules, when it used to be majority rules. Where small groups are able to get things changed for their benefit. It would seem, IMO, that the majority is getting lackadaisical in speaking up towards their beliefs. This 'politically correct' term in hopes of not offending anyone, IMO, is partially to blame.

Church and state should go together, but it doesn't. So they take prayer out of school by a small group. A big mistake IMO.

It's like, he/she that speaks louder gets their way.

Which brings me to this question- If you're not blessed, then what are you?

Let me add that I don't believe people should compete with anyone else, that it breeds animosity. I believe that we should challenge ourselves. Why I believe this, because when Jesus comes back and sets up the coming Kingdom, I don't think there will be competition. And that will be His perfect government where church and state merge.

Disclaimer: These are the views and opinions of dUmPsTeR and they may not reflect those of this site, or participants there in. This statement was intended to bring a smile on your face, and little more than that.


Smile achieved.
I'm not sure I agree with the notion that Church AND State should go together. Granted, I want all people to come to the church, but no one should be forced into it. But People often think a separation of Church and State also means a dismissal of faith, and I disagree with that, too.

When I mention competition, I mean in terms of the market. We can put aside the word "compete" if that makes a difference.
 
Often times, the market is blamed for an economic collapse, but it's not true.

Then who or what exactly caused the world crisis that we’re still in?

And would you agree that it’s worse than Great Depression? For example to the degree of the end of capitalism - as even capitalist predators such as George Soros openly claim?


In fact, it's reversed--it's often excessive regulation and bad economic policies that cause these crises.

Sorry but I find that wrong - especially since the years 1980s, with those Reaganian deregulations, raised to an unprecedented degree in the 1990s, and with a continued trend in the 2000s.

As for your Hoover comments, I think you have the wrong comparison: you should compare results of Hoover’s policies to the moments just prior to implementing those policies - not to other peace-time periods.

So, even if I myself don’t like it, Hoover did provide jobs, therefore raising consumption, therefore raising production, therefore both stabilizing and propelling the entire economy. Not to mention building or re-building the infrastructure, itself contributor to a sane, working, economy.


Communist countries like China, despite being Communist, have a very free market economy.

Well, it may appear that way, but it’s certainly not that way. Think about their currency if nothing else.


Their economic success isn't thanks to massive government involvement, but the one place where they don't get involved.

I agree.


China at least understands how capital is created and how it can continue to grow. This doesn't mean communism works, it means free market economies work.

I agree. It’s not the continental China that works, it’s only 2 parts of China that work: the part hosting the manufacturing for the Western companies, and the part hosting the few Chinese companies that learned and copied that lesson.

Ironically, it’s the U.S. (a capitalist country) that has propelled China (a communist country) as number one economy (as nation) in the world - soon to be if not already. And soon to be number one economical entity as well, if not already (exceeding EU).

A further irony is that China, as a potential or actual number 1 economy in the world, does not have any actual products that recommend it as a real competitor. For example, think about their cars (yes, they call those things cars - really). Neither do the other countries in BRIC.


So before OSHA, workplaces were already self regulating, and at the same rate--in some cases, even faster!

I don’t know what OSHA is (I’m not an American), however I challenge you to name a single airline company that implemented safety procedures BEFORE required so by FAA or whoever.

And isn’t it interesting that even FAA intervention came as result of mishaps?

A clear example that public safety is not aprimary concern - neither for the private sector nor for the government.


Friedrich Hayek spent a lot of his time writing about "Spontaneous Order" where, whether it comes from self-interest or charitable thought, order would fall into place by voluntary measures. When people suggest that chaos would take place without govt., this I would classify as fear-mongering.

1. You still haven’t given any solution to the 2008 moment.

And do you state that the world economy wouldn’t have fell if no government intervention? And your arguments, please.

2. Do you agree with institutions such as WB and IMF? If yes, why? If no, why not?


Child Labor: I support companies hiring kids provided this is a mutual agreement (in other words, I oppose slavery, I support voluntary contract).

This would be funny if it wouldn’t be so tragic. Now you tell me: where exactly does the ‘voluntary’ part fit in in countries where almost nobody has something to eat?


Extreme inequality: I despise inequality of all sorts--whether it be extreme or minimal.

Strangely, that sounds like communism. Where is your laissez faire?


A free society is that of voluntary trade, valid justice, and respect for every individual's right.

If a country is mostly Christian, would you respect the atheists’ right to put ads like “There is no God!” on buses or in newspapers?

And I don’t think you can find “valid justice” anywhere on Earth. But feel free to show me wrong.


But I'll be honest...my biggest concern is with the Federal Reserve, because it's the number one means for them to be able to finance unjust wars.

Fed is the reason money is no longer money almost in the entire world, not only U.S.

And they’re not only financing “unjust wars”, they’re also financing national deficit, private losses, etcetera.
 
Looking across the world, the societies that are the most functional with the highest levels of satisfaction among their citizenry are the ones that take the opposite track.

However, even those Nordic European countries that you likely refer to have lately started to pay the price for decades of those “highest levels of satisfaction”.
 
One thing I see happening in the U.S. is minority rules, when it used to be majority rules.

Hey, Dumpster, nice to see you again.

I think the minority rules everywhere. Even in the world taken as a whole.

Look at this if no other: most wars throughout history, if not all of them, were caused by minority, not majority.


Disclaimer: These are the views and opinions of dUmPsTeR and they may not reflect those of this site, or participants there in. This statement was intended to bring a smile on your face, and little more than that.

Thanks, brother. :)
 
Smile achieved.
I'm not sure I agree with the notion that Church AND State should go together. Granted, I want all people to come to the church, but no one should be forced into it. But People often think a separation of Church and State also means a dismissal of faith, and I disagree with that, too.

When I mention competition, I mean in terms of the market. We can put aside the word "compete" if that makes a difference.

I believe we have free will to choose and that is how God is trying to accomplish one of His main goals. I believe, and many will disagree with me, that God tried it with a third of the angels, and that's where we get Lucifer turning corrupt, corrupting that third of the angels with envy and jealousy. Now he is trying it with us, replication of Himself, and most of us are failing Him.

As for the government we have here in the U.S., I would rather see it more like when this nation was started.

IMO, most churches are businesses. They are in the business of making people feel better, taking their money, and propagating the truth. The true church is but a Small Remnant. Most churches got their start by simon the sorcerer. Remember him? He tried to buy the holy spirit from the apostles. He corroborated with the romans and that's where Catholicism began.

You see how man, as a whole, ruins.

And I may be wrong. It's okay to disagree with me. Like Rev12:9 says- ... satan, who deceives the whole world;

I don't think anyone hasn't been deceived to some degree or another.
 
May I be allowed to contribute some optimism, yet remain somber with the many vigilant warnings of culminating oppression against the church?

Shall the threaded attacks against personal liberty to abate our worship of God simply be a multi-thousand year old tradition that moves down the travel-worn roads of authoritarian compulsion, yet I will go on record to predict a revival of our individual liberty that will abound. I will also predict a pouring out of His spirit as we have never witnessed, yet I predict recklessly in such a short space ahead.

Should it be aware that we as Christians in many walks of life all over this nation and even all over the world are having this very discussion? Also can we agree that in times like these, but much worse, many founders of Christian liberty sat across tables in similar, discussing what must be done to remove authoritarian compulsion that would harm our ability to worship Christ unabated?

I find the time most opportunistic for us as the church in our nation, who will love our nation again in the legacy of Christ, and can peacefully reinstate our individual liberty in order to worship God in a spirit truth unabated.
 
Then who or what exactly caused the world crisis that we’re still in?

It's a collection of things, from over-regulating to excessive spending on foreign involvement -- but each of these things couldn't be obtained without fiat printing...which leads to massive inflation. But while inflation had been taking place, govt. didn't step back to address it. Rather, they allowed Bernanke to continue printing. They believed the economy needed to be stimulated, so they more printing would lead to more spending which would save the economy. But that doesn't work. It's what is known as the "Broken Window Fallacy." The example is that if a window gets broken, people believe this helps the economy because it means a window company be hired, a hauling company will be used to hall that window, gas will be needed to pay for that hauling, etc. etc. But capital wasn't created--rather, it was used toward something else. The money could have been used for a different item instead of for a new window.

The excessive regulations, programs, and intervention (especially war which is the most expensive) were made possible by borrowing and printing, and these all the crisis.

And would you agree that it’s worse than Great Depression? For example to the degree of the end of capitalism - as even capitalist predators such as George Soros openly claim?

That's a loaded question. The resources, value of living, and employment isn't as bad as it was during the Depression, but the activity, public spending, and inflation is worse--that's for sure.

Sorry but I find that wrong - especially since the years 1980s, with those Reaganian deregulations, raised to an unprecedented degree in the 1990s, and with a continued trend in the 2000s.

What people are forgetting about the Reagan presidency is that while he may have been against govt. regulation of "free" enterprise, he high favored the shoring up/bailout out of major corporations. This wasn't even his grossest spending habit--he managed to expanded warfare and CIA/FBI activity more than his predecessors. This trend continued.

As for your Hoover comments, I think you have the wrong comparison: you should compare results of Hoover’s policies to the moments just prior to implementing those policies - not to other peace-time periods.

So, even if I myself don’t like it, Hoover did provide jobs, therefore raising consumption, therefore raising production, therefore both stabilizing and propelling the entire economy. Not to mention building or re-building the infrastructure, itself contributor to a sane, working, economy.

I'm making my comparison directly to the results of Hoover's policies. To suggest the policies had good results merely because, for a moment, some were able to produce, it neglects the long-term problems. This is Keynesianism in a nutshell--don't worry about the long-term, only worry about the right-now. Keynes himself said "In the long, we're all dead."

Well, it may appear that way, but it’s certainly not that way. Think about their currency if nothing else.

Keep in mind, I'm only addressing their free market system. This doesn't excuse their big government involvement.

I don’t know what OSHA is (I’m not an American), however I challenge you to name a single airline company that implemented safety procedures BEFORE required so by FAA or whoever.

And isn’t it interesting that even FAA intervention came as result of mishaps?

I don't know enough about the FAA, but I do know where some of their regulating has potentially caused more harm. One of the biggest ones, for instance, is the ban of firearms in the cockpit. Whether 9/11 would have happened or not without this law is a million-dollar question, but the cause would be in case of a situation of hijackers--there would have been a much greater chance that the towers wouldn't have been destroyed. There are still mishaps post FAA. It's not entirely due to not enough regulations--sometimes, it's precisely due to these regulations.

1. You still haven’t given any solution to the 2008 moment.

And do you state that the world economy wouldn’t have fell if no government intervention? And your arguments, please.

2. Do you agree with institutions such as WB and IMF? If yes, why? If no, why not?

Sorry, I thought I did give a solution. The short answer would be to End The Fed. No more printing of fiat money. No more of it funding unnecessary foreign interventionism/war. No more funding of excessive, unnecessary programs. It undermines capital growth, innovation, employment, incentives, and prosperity.

I certainly don't think it would have fallen to the degree it already has, but only if I'm going by history. Economies have picked themselves back up again after govt. stepped back from involvement. Each time they've stepped forward and we've seen improvement, it was only for a short time. It's like covering a large wound with a small band-aid.

No, I do not agree with those institutions. They make "loans" that no rational bank would even consider. The IMF has pretty much no incentive to operate profitably like a private bank since its funding comes from the US Congress that demands very little accountability. These organizations have channeled tax-dollars to politically connected companies--so they also often operate as a tool for cronyism. The taxpayer is also not supposed to be obligated to send money abroad by force, yet this is what the IMF's biggest cause is.

This would be funny if it wouldn’t be so tragic. Now you tell me: where exactly does the ‘voluntary’ part fit in in countries where almost nobody has something to eat?

I'm not following your question. Is this in regards to, let's say, kids who work in third-world countries because it's either that or starving to death? If so, I'm happy to address that, but you'd be changing the subject if that's what you're asking.

Strangely, that sounds like communism. Where is your laissez faire?

Promoting the concept that everyone should be treated as equals is not communism. If Mr. Smith has a million dollars and Mr. Doe has a hundred dollars, then they should both be treated as equals to be able to use, invest, and spend their money as they see fit. However, it would be UNEQUAL to tell Mr. Smith to give money to Mr. Doe simply because Mr. Doe has less. This would be treating one as something different than the other. Both should have equal opportunity, equal rights, and equal choice, but this doesn't mean one is entitled to something at the cost of another. Communism is funded by force, and I believe in the Non-Aggression Principle.

This is the problem. People tend to think Communism means looking out for the common good. Looking out for the common good is something that could be done outside of big government. For instance, I oppose minimal wage laws. It's not because I'm some villain that wants to see people starve. It's because minimal wage devalues jobs and employees. 14-year-old Jake won't be able to work at Mom n' Pop's Shop because Mom n' Pop can only afford to hire someone with experience. This is why the teenage unemployment rate is at an all-time high. This is only one example, but I hope this at least lends some rationale to my argument of why I advocate for laissez-faire markets.

If a country is mostly Christian, would you respect the atheists’ right to put ads like “There is no God!” on buses or in newspapers?

Yes, I'd respect their right to do this...and they'd have to respect my right for when I place an ad on the front page that reads "God loves YOU." The beauty of freedom of speech and the market is that someone can always respond and give lend their voice.

And I don’t think you can find “valid justice” anywhere on Earth. But feel free to show me wrong.

"Valid Justice" might be a stretch, but I certainly wouldn't stand for injustice...and I believe that's what we are often getting.


Fed is the reason money is no longer money almost in the entire world, not only U.S.

And they’re not only financing “unjust wars”, they’re also financing national deficit, private losses, etcetera.

EXACTLY!
 
But you're forgetting that laissez faire brought the world here, to a global crisis, not a government economy.

No_one,

may I also offer some perspective to contribute?

Can we agree that laissez faire has had little history in four thousand years to rise up and stretch its legs in any organized economy, for its evident that voluntary exchange in the absence of economic intervention only occurred in remote parts of the earth for short periods of time including here in the US. Yet a few times we did come close as the Jeffersonians and Jacksonians in economic history did envision such a laissez faire hard-money system. Shall their legacy of hard money and some motivations for non-intervention be reflected historically up to the days of even Grover Cleveland. Yet again I will be quick to also point out that the old-line hard-money democrats and democratic-republicans failed to diminish compulsion over economic policy.

Shall we have only outliers of pioneered territories that traded gold unabated in purity and even then banks would rush in to locally commandeer the transactions of voluntary exchange using fiat schemes.
 
Church and state should go together, but it doesn't. So they take prayer out of school by a small group. A big mistake IMO.
I can't agree with that at all. I don't want to live in a theocracy. I like our democratic republic, thank you very much!

Which brings me to this question- If you're not blessed, then what are you?
I'm not sure what you mean here.

Let me add that I don't believe people should compete with anyone else, that it breeds animosity.
Capitalism, by its very nature, requires competition. So what other economic system should we follow?
 
People we are in the beginning of the tribulation. The person trying to stop anyone from escaping is leading the US armed forces.
 
I can't agree with that at all. I don't want to live in a theocracy. I like our democratic republic, thank you very much!

I like the way Moses set up men, wise and mature men, to be in charge of 10's, 50's, 100's, etc.


I'm not sure what you mean here.

If you're not blessed, then you're cursed. Some believe that the crossed handed blessing on those two tribes fell upon descendants that became the U.S. and what was once called Great Britain. It, the blessing, carried with it the name of Israel, and it had a time that it would expire. About the end of the industrial age. Whether this is true or not, I haven't been given the wisdom to discern it for sure.


Capitalism, by its very nature, requires competition. So what other economic system should we follow?

See Exodus chapter 18.

Ugh, I wrote in your quote because I didn't do it correctly. Please expand ^^ and forgive me.
 
I'm trying to catch up with this thread, but I think my eyes are starting to bleed. (kidding about my eyes)

One thing that I thought helped bring about the financial turmoil was that laws were put in place making bankers/banks give loans with out prejudice. So you have banks giving loans to people that had little means to repay them.
 
It's a collection of things, from over-regulating to excessive spending on foreign involvement -- but each of these things couldn't be obtained without fiat printing...which leads to massive inflation. But while inflation had been taking place, govt. didn't step back to address it. Rather, they allowed Bernanke to continue printing. They believed the economy needed to be stimulated, so they more printing would lead to more spending which would save the economy. But that doesn't work. It's what is known as the "Broken Window Fallacy." The example is that if a window gets broken, people believe this helps the economy because it means a window company be hired, a hauling company will be used to hall that window, gas will be needed to pay for that hauling, etc. etc. But capital wasn't created--rather, it was used toward something else. The money could have been used for a different item instead of for a new window.

Lysander your knowledge of the Austrian tradition is quite impressive.

You describe here possibly the greatest economic analogy in history.

For can it be possible that economic theory, which will move from human action, girded with individual purpose, then becomes the foundation for individual economic independence, which will guard our individual and Christian liberty?
 
Lysander your knowledge of the Austrian tradition is quite impressive.

You describe here possibly the greatest economic analogy in history.

For can it be possible that economic theory, which will move from human action, girded with individual purpose, then becomes the foundation for individual economic independence, which will guard our individual and Christian liberty?

It's an oldie but a goodie, the broken window fallacy.

Your question is can economic and civil liberty translate to the protection of Christian liberty? Absolutely.
 
Your question is can economic and civil liberty translate to the protection of Christian liberty? Absolutely.

Absolutely! But not practical, workable yet or maybe not in this lifetime....

We are living with in this world people with unstable, erratic moral objectives.

We need common laws for the meantime for them….

Take child labour.

A Christian business will try to be righteous in doing business: have enough break-time, working environment that promote kid’s learning, of good values, including health check, etc.

One will not always expect (thus, laws are needed) that from non-Christian businesses…that Christian business will close business in due time.

1 Timothy 1:9
realizing the fact that law is not made for a righteous person, but for those who are lawless and rebellious,
 
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