Atheist Questions

[KingJ]

edit: 'evolution says otherwise'.

 

[RiverJordan]

Kids come to you with a knife in them and your solution is to drive it through them?

No, they come to me with the obvious dishonest nonsense from fundamentalists, knowing that it's dishonest nonsense, and having been told that they must either believe the dishonest nonsense unquestioningly, or they cannot be a Christian. I show them that not all Christians are reality-denying and backwards thinking, and that salvation is not dependent on denying the reality that is all around us.

Evolution makes scripture obsolete. Scripture is either the word of God or it is not. If scripture says Adam was the first human created, Adam was either the first human created or scripture is false. Either God created humans just beneath the angels or scripture is false.

There's that black/white thinking again. It's either A or B, all or none.

1. Share your belief of creation with me. As convincingly as you can.

I already have. RIGHT HERE

- Heb 2:7 You made them a little lower than the angels; you crowned them with glory and honor.
- Gen 1:27 So God created mankind in his own image, in the image of God he created them; male and female he created them.
- 1 Cor 15:39 Not all flesh is the same: People have one kind of flesh, animals have another, birds another and fish another.

I believe all that is true. There's nothing in there that says HOW anything was done, just that God created us in His image.

- Gen 1:3-19 And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. Light came before the sun. (evolution says opposite).

First, your ignorance of science is showing. Evolution doesn't say anything about things like that. Evolution is about biological organisms. Second, "let there be light" could refer to the moment of the big bang. Lastly, you honestly think the main point of Genesis 1 is "This is the order things were created in"? Seriously?

- Gen 1:2 Oceans were created before land. (evolution says opposite).
- Gen 1:11 First life was land plants. (evolution says opposite).
- Gen 1:16 Stars were all created at once. (evolution says opposite).

See above.

- Gen 1:20, 21 Marine life was created all at once. (evolution says opposite).

Sorry, but the phrase "all at once" isn't in there. All it says is God "let" it happen, which sounds exactly like what I believe.

- Gen 2:7 Man was made from the dust of the earth. (evolution says opposite).
- Gen 2:21, 22 Man was created, then woman. (evolution says opposite).

????? "Evolution says" that we are made up of elements from the earth, i.e., "the dust of the earth". And evolution does not "say" women came before males. I have no idea where you get that.

- When did man become accountable for sin? Modern Homo-sapiens are traced to 200 000 years ago in Ethiopa. Is Adam's ape father in hell or heaven?

We became accountable when God created us as conscious human beings with an ability to distinguish between right and wrong. IOW, when God gave us a soul. Prior species of hominids didn't have that.

- If Adam is 200 000 years old, where is scripture filling the gap to Abraham (1926 bc)?

?????? You're not making sense.

- Why does scripture not mention something as relevant as evolution?

Scripture doesn't mention plate tectonics either, and actually says that God creates mountains. According to your black/white mode of thinking, Christians must therefore reject plate tectonics and volcanic activity as mechanisms for creation of mountains, otherwise they're "rejecting scripture"!!

 

[KingJ]

I show them that not all Christians are reality-denying and backwards thinking, and that salvation is not dependent on denying the reality that is all around us.

My points on this really do fly over your head...Next time you counsel them look at how much scripture you quote.

There's that black/white thinking again. It's either A or B, all or none.

and there is your ignorance again. ''Whether scripture is true or false is irrelevant as River is right''. I imagine you the type to hold onto scripture speaking of Jesus's love and forgiveness whilst foolishly encouraging all to ignore the rest like it is ancient hogwash. Like God OT was dumb. Like scripture is not inspired by God.

I already have. RIGHT HERE

The only reason you are confused / see scripture as vague is because you are holding evolution in one hand. God is God. If He can speak the first particle into existence He can speak a human into existence.

I believe all that is true. There's nothing in there that says HOW anything was done, just that God created us in His image.

1 Cor 15:39 is saying that only like of like reproduces. You miss that? Hence scripture is telling us we cannot evolve from an ape. Only an ape can come from an ape. Gen 1:27 is saying that MANKIND (flesh inclusive!) is created in the image of God. Mankind was hence NEVER an ape unless you think God is. Heb 10:27 says God made HUMANS beneath the angels. Apes are nowhere beneath them. These verses speak of us inclusive of our 'fleshly' state! Note NO mention of .....God took an ape and molded it into a being beneath the angels!! You have a serious lack of insight / lateral thought and much needed scripture on evolution!

First, your ignorance of science is showing. Evolution doesn't say anything about things like that. Evolution is about biological organisms. Second, "let there be light" could refer to the moment of the big bang. Lastly, you honestly think the main point of Genesis 1 is "This is the order things were created in"? Seriously?

See above.

Sorry, but the phrase "all at once" isn't in there. All it says is God "let" it happen, which sounds exactly like what I believe.

????? "Evolution says" that we are made up of elements from the earth, i.e., "the dust of the earth". And evolution does not "say" women came before males. I have no idea where you get that.

.

Here is the link that I agree with explaining these better. It gives reasons for both sides. http://www.dianedew.com/creation.htm.

We became accountable when God created us as conscious human beings with an ability to distinguish between right and wrong. IOW, when God gave us a soul. Prior species of hominids didn't have that

A little lateral thought wave is surfacing! but not high enough....Did Adam look for his ape dad? Take care of him like a pet?

Scripture doesn't mention plate tectonics either, and actually says that God creates mountains. According to your black/white mode of thinking, Christians must therefore reject plate tectonics and volcanic activity as mechanisms for creation of mountains, otherwise they're "rejecting scripture"!!

Are you for real? YoU CaNnOt CoMpArE the significane of evolution with plate tectonics. I see the lateral thought wave has crashed. Not that plate tectonics is excluded though... http://www.icr.org/article/78/.

 

[RiverJordan]

My points on this really do fly over your head...Next time you counsel them look at how much scripture you quote.

Funny...I do all the time. Nice try at an empty assumption though.

and there is your ignorance again. ''Whether scripture is true or false is irrelevant as River is right''. I imagine you the type to hold onto scripture speaking of Jesus's love and forgiveness whilst foolishly encouraging all to ignore the rest like it is ancient hogwash. Like God OT was dumb. Like scripture is not inspired by God.

Once again your assumptions/imaginations are completely wrong.

The only reason you are confused / see scripture as vague is because you are holding evolution in one hand. God is God. If He can speak the first particle into existence He can speak a human into existence.

It's not vague. It clearly says that God "let" things happen. And sure, God can speak a human into existence just as it's possible for Him to have created everything last week, and just made it look otherwise. That doesn't mean that's what happened though.

1 Cor 15:39 is saying that only like of like reproduces. You miss that? Hence scripture is telling us we cannot evolve from an ape. Only an ape can come from an ape.

I don't see the words "reproduce", "human", "evolve", or "ape" in there. Why are you adding to scripture?

Gen 1:27 is saying that MANKIND (flesh inclusive!) is created in the image of God.

Sorry, I didn't see the words "flesh inclusive" in there. Why are you adding to scripture?

Mankind was hence NEVER an ape unless you think God is.

You think "in the image of God" is a physical description? You think the main point of that verse is that God is a biped, has a spine, hair, and a penis?

Heb 10:27 says God made HUMANS beneath the angels.

Yep.

Apes are nowhere beneath them.

So where are they? Above them?

These verses speak of us inclusive of our 'fleshly' state!

No they don't. You're adding things to scripture that aren't there.

Note NO mention of .....God took an ape and molded it into a being beneath the angels!! You have a serious lack of insight / lateral thought and much needed scripture on evolution!

Scripture also teaches that God created the mountains, yet there is no mention of "God crashed two tectonic plates together". What? How can that be? I thought the Bible was like an issue of Popular Mechanics!!

Here is the link that I agree with explaining these better. It gives reasons for both sides. http://www.dianedew.com/creation.htm.

You're just re-stating what I already responded to.

A little lateral thought wave is surfacing! but not high enough....Did Adam look for his ape dad? Take care of him like a pet?

Or maybe once God created his spiritual essence, he didn't recognize him as his dad?

Are you for real? YoU CaNnOt CoMpArE the significane of evolution with plate tectonics. I see the lateral thought wave has crashed. Not that plate tectonics is excluded though... http://www.icr.org/article/78/.

Yes I can. The Bible clearly states that God creates mountains (Amos 4:13). But if we apply the logic you're using here, since it doesn't say "God took two tectonic plates and crashed them together", we must therefore conclude that God created them instantaneously and supernaturally, and that plate tectonics is a plot from Satan.

Of course that would be silly, for a number of reasons. Yet that's exactly what you're doing.

 

[KingJ]

Funny...I do all the time. Nice try at an empty assumption though.

Liar. Unless someone comes to you with an evolution question and you quote John 3:16.

Once again your assumptions/imaginations are completely wrong.

I say scripture is inspired by God, you don't say yes or no, you say this. I am so done wasting my time with you!

It's not vague. It clearly says that God "let" things happen. And sure, God can speak a human into existence just as it's possible for Him to have created everything last week, and just made it look otherwise. That doesn't mean that's what happened though.

But that's what scripture says....the ONLY blur is where 1000 years may be as a day to God. So the earth could be old but not humans.

I don't see the words "reproduce", "human", "evolve", or "ape" in there. Why are you adding to scripture?

When you apply for bible study classes take English lessons as well please.

Sorry, I didn't see the words "flesh inclusive" in there. Why are you adding to scripture?

Mankind = body, soul and spirit = Sunday school Christianity. This does not mean God has flesh, but His appearance match the 'body' part. Hence a mere peanut as a brain should be enough to grasp that part of God's image can never be an evolving ape.

Scripture also teaches that God created the mountains, yet there is no mention of "God crashed two tectonic plates together". What? How can that be? I thought the Bible was like an issue of Popular Mechanics!!

And we are as significant as mountains? We, who are created in the image of God? You accept that a monkey can be in that equation.

You're just re-stating what I already responded to.

You may be surprised by what you learn if you just gave sites opposing evolution a chance.

Or maybe once God created his spiritual essence, he didn't recognize him as his dad?

You are just not capable of logical thought are you?

Yes I can. The Bible clearly states that God creates mountains (Amos 4:13). But if we apply the logic you're using here, since it doesn't say "God took two tectonic plates and crashed them together", we must therefore conclude that God created them instantaneously and supernaturally, and that plate tectonics is a plot from Satan.

You just don't get it do you. It is like your answers to man being selfless.

Age of the earth undermines nothing. Many respected Christians believe in an old earth. No respected Christians believe in evolution. Human evolution undermines scripture 100%. You forget why evolution theory was invented. It was never the result of finding fossils. It was a theory to attack / ignore God the Creator. People have been believing and discussing it from 600 bc in Greece.

I am done trying to explain this to you too. I just pray for you and the kids you teach.

 

[RiverJordan]

KingJ,

You know how I know you're wrong on this? By the fact that rather than actually rebut or refute what I post, you are reduced to calling me names and stomping away in a fit like a little child. That's a sure sign that a very, very prideful person has lost an argument.

The only other thing I'll bother pointing out to you relates to your claim, "No respected Christians believe in evolution." So I guess several Popes aren't "respected Christians"? They've directly stated that evolution is valid science and is not in conflict with Christianity. I also recommend you look into the Clergy Letter Project, where Christian ministers and Jewish Rabbis (among others) sign statements declaring that evolution is valid science and is not in conflict with their faith.

Put that all together and the result is obvious. You're wrong.

 

[KingJ]

KingJ,

You know how I know you're wrong on this? By the fact that rather than actually rebut or refute what I post, you are reduced to calling me names and stomping away in a fit like a little child. That's a sure sign that a very, very prideful person has lost an argument.

Simply genius refuting right there. Perhaps if I knew you in real life I would know better then to discuss with you. But on the internet I have to assume that someones who calls themselves a Christian is a good and honest Christian. If I reasoned like an atheist I would forgive all for getting irritated with me!

The only other thing I'll bother pointing out to you relates to your claim, "No respected Christians believe in evolution." So I guess several Popes aren't "respected Christians"? They've directly stated that evolution is valid science and is not in conflict with Christianity. I also recommend you look into the Clergy Letter Project, where Christian ministers and Jewish Rabbis (among others) sign statements declaring that evolution is valid science and is not in conflict with their faith.

So citing statements from popes gives you the boldness to make all the ridiculous anti-scriptural statements you want. The Catholic church nervously supports it. They, like all Christians are ''for'' science. Science betters all our lives. However...there is a huge difference between supporting science and believing / teaching evolution from the pulpit. The Catholic church is thus in a neutral position. ''Supporting'' the theory of theistic evolution but NOT teaching it.

Popes are known for making general statements to avoid senseless arguments. Just look at the controversy on the homosexuality statement by pope Francis. The evolution argument is fast becoming the same type of issue. Give the devil your hand and he will take your arm. Now are you going to say that it is fine to be homosexual because of what the pope said and what many Catholic priests now preach?

The fundamentals of Catholic dogma are starting to shake just as every Christian denomination is! The two biggest culprits are evolution and homosexuality. Now I don't mind the shaking! It is good! It reveals who holds onto the truth / knows the truth and who doesn't. But what does get to me. Is that the ''Christians'' that believe this tripe are doing so at a level of boldness never seen before. Completely removing, ignoring and discrediting scripture inspired by God. It is getting to the point where nobody can be saved. Capisce?

 

[RiverJordan]

Simply genius refuting right there.

There's nothing to refute. All you've done the last few posts is resort to personal attacks.

So citing statements from popes gives you the boldness to make all the ridiculous anti-scriptural statements you want.

???????? You're not even making sense now. You claimed, "No respected Christians believe in evolution". The Pope is a "respected Christian" and several of them have expressly endorsed evolution. Therefore your statement is wrong. Not only that, but there are several members in good standing here who have said they recognize evolution as valid science.

''Supporting'' the theory of theistic evolution but NOT teaching it.

Catholic schools and universities the world over teach evolution as scientifically valid. SMH.

Now are you going to say that it is fine to be homosexual because of what the pope said and what many Catholic priests now preach?

Wow. You are really floundering here. Why not drop your pride and admit you were wrong?

It is getting to the point where nobody can be saved. Capisce?

Oh brother.

 

[KingJ]

Catholic schools and universities the world over teach evolution as scientifically valid. SMH.

They don't ''teach it as fact''....they tolerate science. They teach creationism as fact and evolution is debated. Most discussions on it go like this...DNA research ....Imaginary assumptions from fossils . Many Catholic schools have removed evolution from their curriculum!

The Pope is a "respected Christian" and several of them have expressly endorsed evolution.

Here are some reasons we can't take their endorsement to heart... http://biblelight.net/darwin.htm.

Wow. You are really floundering here. Why not drop your pride and admit you were wrong?

Floundering? Say and believe what you want. Anyone who can read English unbiasedly can grasp the scripture I have quoted and any respected Christian will accept that your opinion < scripture.

 

[RiverJordan]

They don't ''teach it as fact''....they tolerate science. They teach creationism as fact and evolution is debated. Most discussions on it go like this...DNA research ....Imaginary assumptions from fossils . Many Catholic schools have removed evolution from their curriculum!

Please source your claims. No way I'm just taking your word for it.

Here are some reasons we can't take their endorsement to heart... http://biblelight.net/darwin.htm.

LOL! You do realize this link contradicts your earlier claim that the Catholic Church just "tolerates evolution", don't you? The very first thing at that link is, "Pope John Paul II...declared the evolutionary theories of Charles Darwin to be fact". So which is it? Is the RCC merely tolerating evolution, or are they declaring it to be fact?

But I do see why you would like that page. It says things like, "Either evolution is theory (hypothesis) or it is fact, there is no middle ground with respect to the origin of man. Either God created man directly from the dust of the earth or He didn't. It is just that simple." That's reflective of the type of simplistic, black/white thinking you've consistently displayed here, and it shows a fundamental ignorance of basic science.

Also, the page concludes with, "Apparently most Roman Catholic schools have taught evolution pretty much as fact since Pope Pius XII's encyclical HUMANI GENERIS in 1950. I even have a Catholic acquaintance who confirms that he was taught evolution as fact by Jesuits while in a Catholic school, so to most Catholics the Pope's remarks probably come as no great surprise." That directly contradicts your claim at the top of this post.

You're not doing very well here.

Floundering? Say and believe what you want.

Well, your claim that no "respectable Christians" believe in evolution is wrong, your claim that the RCC merely "tolerates" evolution is wrong as stated by your own source, and your claim that the RCC does't teach it as fact in their schools is wrong as stated by your own source.

At this point, I'm wondering if it's possible for you to do any worse.

Anyone who can read English unbiasedly can grasp the scripture I have quoted and any respected Christian will accept that your opinion < scripture.

Sorry, but you stopped quoting scripture in this discussion some time ago.

 

[KingJ]

River, I like how you are jumping on this Catholic train whilst conveniently forgetting the more pressing points I raised.

I could write-off the Catholic church as a lost Christian cause and accuse the pope of being a nobody with power to make silly anti-scriptural statements. But, I don't need to do that. Because you are wrong about them . You are just not able to see it.

I am going to try help you for the last time. Purely because it seems to me that your justification for your strong belief in evolution rests now on what the pope says.

The position of the pope must be respected by all! He is a good person indeed! The pressures that come upon him are at a level we cannot grasp. Hence we can and must forgive him / them when they make mistakes! That link I gave you noted the 'Galileo affair'. You need to pay attention to that! Prior popes have had terrible / Catholic church ending type occasions when they defied science. Popes hence err on the side of science even if its evolution tripe . It is critical that you grasp that they support theistic evolution to the point that it does not intervene / override 'infallible dogma'. That is to tolerate it. The moment they grasp that the devil wants more then their hand, they will throw it out. Or there will be a split as what happened with homosexuality.

Interesting read for you http://www.catholicherald.co.uk/com...he-smuggling-of-atheism-into-science-lessons/.

Conclusion: You can be forgiven for being ignorant of what scripture actually says because the pope supports it. But choosing to stay ignorant once presented with the facts and being given a strong reason for the pope getting it wrong is your choice.

Study up on the Catholic churches 'infallible dogma' and test your beliefs against it. You may just find that the extent to which you believe in evolution is not supported by the pope.

 

[RiverJordan]

River, I like how you are jumping on this Catholic train whilst conveniently forgetting the more pressing points I raised.

Your posts are getting more and more bizarre. The only reason I brought the RCC into the discussion was in response to your false claim that no "respectable Christians" believe in evolution. So now you're stuck. You have to either argue that the Pope isn't a respectable Christian, or that he doesn't believe in evolution. You tried to do the latter, but your own source contradicted you. But rather than just admit you were wrong, you're floundering all over the place doing everything you can to avoid just swallowing your pride and admitting your error.

I also pointed out that a few other members of this forum also "believe in evolution" and seem to be "respectable Christians", but you just blew that off and focused on the Pope.

I am going to try help you for the last time. Purely because it seems to me that your justification for your strong belief in evolution rests now on what the pope says.

Again, you're not making the slightest bit of sense. My "strong belief" in evolution is no different than my "strong belief" in erosion or plate tectonics. They're all based on the fact that they are demonstrable reality. Not being a Catholic, I personally don't care too much what the Pope says about a scientific subject.

Interesting read for you http://www.catholicherald.co.uk/com...he-smuggling-of-atheism-into-science-lessons/.

I suppose it's "interesting", but it doesn't really make any sense. The author never actually explains exactly how he thinks "atheism is being smuggled into the classroom".

And it makes even less sense as something that you would post, given that it starts off with, "I don’t know any Christians, apart from certain Evangelicals, who interpret the Book of Genesis literally. Certainly Catholics don’t do so. There is a long tradition in the Church of supporting scientific enquiry on the grounds that physics and metaphysics can easily flourish alongside each other. " And it finishes with, "by all means introduce evolution into science lessons, as part of pupils’ exploration of the natural world."

That seems to me to be a pretty strong endorsement for my position and in direct opposition to yours.

Conclusion: You can be forgiven for being ignorant of what scripture actually says because the pope supports it. But choosing to stay ignorant once presented with the facts and being given a strong reason for the pope getting it wrong is your choice.

See, here's the difference between you and me. We obviously have two different approaches to reading the Genesis creation accounts. That's hardly surprising given that Judaism and Christianity have both been wrestling with the issue for millenia. But I can accept that you have a different view than me. You OTOH, seem to be completely intolerant of my having a different view than you, and you have to call me names, accuse me of being a liar, and accuse me of being ignorant of scripture. IOW, when confronted with a different approach than yours, your immediate instinct is to attack the person over and over again.

See the difference? I once again submit that your authoritarian, fundamentalist approach to Christianity is less a product of actual scripture, and more a result of your own personality traits manifesting themselves in your beliefs.

Study up on the Catholic churches 'infallible dogma' and test your beliefs against it. You may just find that the extent to which you believe in evolution is not supported by the pope.

Like I said, I don't really care what the RCC's views on evolution are. My position is based on the reality that exists around us and how it fits very well into scripture.

 

[KingJ]

You OTOH, seem to be completely intolerant of my having a different view than you, and you have to call me names, accuse me of being a liar, and accuse me of being ignorant of scripture. IOW, when confronted with a different approach than yours, your immediate instinct is to attack the person over and over again.

If you knew me better you would know I have been and accepted correction a number of times on this site. But from brothers and sisters who quoted nothing but scripture. Discussion with you is extremely annoying NOT because we disagree, but because you never quote scripture. I simply cannot have an enjoyable or edifying Christian discussion with you. There is simply nothing else to it.

You seem well meaning, not sure why you don't quote more scripture . God bless River, I think we have killed this. Sorry for getting upset and rude and I forgive you !

 

[RiverJordan]

The problem is KingJ, I have quoted scripture. Specific to this topic, I've explained precisely how my interpretation of Genesis is justified by the text. Those posts were basically ignored.

Thanks for your apology.