Baptism in the Holy Spirit

Oct 23, 2009
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EM, if you can, I personally would love you to tell us why you think it is blessing you so much!!

With love!

- BM
:smiley90: sorry did not see this sooner and get back with you right a way , wow I believe that it is because I am learning things that when I study then pray allowing the REVEALING to OCCUR the HOLY SPIRIT DOES , it has opened up a whole NEW UNDERSTANDING WITHIN ME :smiley90: :smiley60:

I have actually still been meditating and reading some of this thread over and over , THERE IS SOMETHING IN THIS THAT HAS ME READING IT MORE AND MORE :smiley40:

I am like that when I find something ,I may read this thread a few dozen times over .

Living water has a way of being EXTREMELY HARD NOT TO KEEP DRINKING IN :smiley90:

there is something contained in this that I am suposed to learn to grow to know to have to

well you know :smiley60:
 
Wow, EM, that is sooo wonderful!!

I suppose I'm not actually surprised in the respect that so many do not understand the Holy Spirit, are not relying on Him for POWER; or to have the Scriptures REVEALED (can't understand 'em without Him - simple at that, because they are spiritual not temporal); or to get JESUS REVEALED so that you can build a relationship with Him.

So go for it! Meantime Luke and I have some more things to try and figure out...

Blessings!!

- BM
 
To Bondman,

Hi again!

:)

sorry cannot reply yet, as I will chew on these things more.

I have been very UNgentle with my words, and thankyou for your perseverance with me. Sorry for that.


I am from the Gold Coast, Queensland - Australia
No problems, mate!! In the Lord I am unoffendable! So nothing you've said is any bother to me. Of course I"m gonna stick with you (so long as you want this) - that's what Love does!

And hey, don't ever fear new truth. New truth is your friend. It can be pretty uncomfortable for sure, but in the end it's great. And give yourself time and space. Don't hassle. Be still in the Lord. Let Him minister to you as well as guide and reveal to you.

As for getting new truth into your life, my Beloved used to say it took her up to 3 months! ("I can't change over just like that!" she tell me. I reckon she's a lot faster now, but it's not necessarily easy for most folks.) I'm rather rare apparently in that I can change over there and then or at the lastest within a day. *happy grin!*

Not that there may be any new truth for you. Maybe just some readjusting. Probly be some for me also!


So you're somewhere near that amazing expanse of beautiful white sand and blue water - down the road a bit from us. We're on the Southern outskirts of Brissy, close to the bush which we love to get to. I used to be well enough to drive as far as Southport, maybe 4 or 5 years ago. We'd find a place to sit (in the car) where we could enjoy sand, sea, waves, birds, then drive home. Now I can't go anywhere near that distance even if I'm having an actual "better" day. But it's all okay. God is in charge, and you and I are HIS!!!!!!

I'm working on writing what I've researched. It's interesting, and gives me some pause for thought!

Bless ya heaps!

- BM
 
Oct 23, 2009
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Matthew 7:7 - Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you.
:smiley60: this scripture is about FAITH
there is faith expressed in moments of prayer and exaltation

Jesus looks for the FAITH that lays IMMEDIATELY to rest ,
the doubts of the day as they arise that attacks and conquers the sense of limitation " ASK AND YOU SHALL RECEIVE " :smiley90:

simple at that, because they are spiritual not temporal);
I Agree , Faith that stands still trusting even when evidence is not seen is faith that is still living ,and Not dead under the weight of doubts and fears and human reasoning governed by temporal limitation's .

Surely we ask a "LIVING FATHER SON AND HOLY SPIRIT"

Gifts we often offer in this life are temporal

GIFTS GIVEN FROM GOD ,SUCH AS LIVING WATER IS EVERLASTING

success in the temporal world would never satisfy a thirsty Christian :smiley90:

BLESS YOU ALL ,AND I KNOW GOD WILL , HIS BLESSINGS ARE ETERNAL AND SPIRITUAL TO THOSE WHO BELIEVE :smiley60:
 
Oct 23, 2009
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My brother, at the end of this month, I'm preaching a sermon on the Baptism in the Holy Spirit. Contact me if you'd like some notes.

Pastor Glenn
:smiley90: I prayerfully hope Pastor Glenn you will share THAT SERMON :smiley90:

I was :smiley60: one passage in particular that grabbed my attention Pastor Glenn it is recorded in the book of Ephesians chapter one verse 13 :smiley60:

" In HIM you also TRUSTED , after YOU HEARD, the word of TRUTH , the GOSPEL of your SALVATION, in WHOM ALSO HAVING BELIEVED , you were sealed with the HOLY SPIRIT OF PROMISE :smiley90:

what a awesome passage it is

It begins with a spiritual Blessing with which God has Blessed us in Christ and then through the next verses
shows us what we have in him and closes with the SEAL OF THE HOLY SPIRIT :smiley90:

The "HOLY SPIRIT" is the SEAL OF OUR REDEMPTION

Pastor Glenn will you elaborate about the part
"BY HIS LIFE IN US" the seal of
his work to reveal and GLORIFY CHRIST IN US the IMAGE of the FATHER by focusing our hearts and Faith on him to TRANSFORM us into HIS LIKENESS ?

:smiley60:

:smiley50: Is it that believers are often missing by ignorance the blessings at the conversion because the question was never faced and settled that "By the GRACE OF GOD" they would in EVERYTHING YIELD OURSELVES / THEMSELVES to the control of the HOLY SPIRIT ?

:smiley170: sometimes we REJOICE in one of the fruits and yet are deficient in another

would you be willing to Pastor Glenn help me out with the scripture that deal with how much within the heart still remains to be renewed and sanctified ?

In reference to Baptism and sealing ? :smiley60:
 
Hi Luke!

I cannot find categoric Scripture to either confirm or deny that getting born again means you're filled with the Holy Spirit. No good assuming or making quantum leaps. Either the Bible says Yes or it says No - anything less than that is of no value whatever to anybody!

But that leaves what seems like a very important question unanswered. In this event the only other course is to see what happens in experience. One thing that is well documented is called "The Second Blessing". This occurred in the lives of so many of the "greats" over hundreds of years, the names reading like a who's who of Christian leaders over this time.

The Second Blessing was also referred to as baptism in the Spirit. Some saw it as this: at conversion to Christian we are Justified. At the Second Blessings, filling of the Spirit, or whatever name is used, you were Sanctified. That is, your Christian life has entered into a stage of deep commitment to Jesus and is God sends the fullness of His Spirit as a result.

I've never thought of it this way, but it does tie up to a fair degree with my experience. One of the many who experienced this is Hudson Taylor, missionary to China in the mid 1800. If I recall correctly, on the mission field his wife was the first to be brought into a new state of Spiritual bliss and power. Hudson Taylor wanted what she had, but had to wait for it - which did happen.

Now this extraordinary man of faith and man of God - prior to this experience - refused to tell people of his needs on the field. His procedure of faith in prayer was what he called "to move men through God alone" - and he did!! So there's no way we can see he was unconverted prior to the Second Blessing/filling of the Spirit.

Another writer says this: There is no Second Blessing, but a third and fourth and so on. That is, referring to God's command to us in James Ch 4:7b to "be being filled with the Spirit," if we're truly walking with Him, then we are constantly being re-filled! That makes good sense to me. (BTW, does the way I wrote from James give a reasonable sense of the Greek?)

I've not found anything further on this for the time being. Please share anything you may have or are thinking/considering.

Praying for you, for rest and trust that He may guide you into all truth!

Much love!!

- BM

 

LukeLuke

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Nov 2, 2009
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Hi Bondman,
I could not find the James verse you were talking about, but here is a similar passage in Ephesians...

Eph 5:18b

ἀλλὰ πληροῦσθε ἐν πνεύματι


The significant things to notice about this word in red is...

It is in Present tense and also passive voice. This means that the 'command' it is giving implies continuous or ongoing (present tense imperative verb) action. Passive voice means that someone/thing else is doing the action to you.

The verb (NON-passive) means to fulfill (complete). In the passive it means to be (by someone/thing else) filled (filled-to-the-top kind of filling).


Therefore your quote of "be being filled" is actually quite correct. it takes into account the continuous implication of the present tense ("being") and also the passive implications ("be being").


There is definitely command to be filled with the Spirit, but...

Another writer says this: There is no Second Blessing, but a third and fourth and so on.
I would be quite agreeing with this writer...

at the moment I will be honest yet again and say that ... if I had just the Scriptures to read ALONE (with no ones theories upon them) I would not come to the conclusion of a second baptism in the Spirit. But only the first baptism upon initial faith in God. It still seems very 'forced' for backing-up Scripture...


:)
Luke.
 
Hi Bondman,
I could not find the James verse you were talking about, but here is a similar passage in Ephesians...

Eph 5:18b

ἀλλὰ πληροῦσθε ἐν πνεύματι


The significant things to notice about this word in red is...

It is in Present tense and also passive voice. This means that the 'command' it is giving implies continuous or ongoing (present tense imperative verb) action. Passive voice means that someone/thing else is doing the action to you.

The verb (NON-passive) means to fulfill (complete). In the passive it means to be (by someone/thing else) filled (filled-to-the-top kind of filling).


Therefore your quote of "be being filled" is actually quite correct. it takes into account the continuous implication of the present tense ("being") and also the passive implications ("be being").


There is definitely command to be filled with the Spirit, but...



I would be quite agreeing with this writer...

at the moment I will be honest yet again and say that ... if I had just the Scriptures to read ALONE (with no ones theories upon them) I would not come to the conclusion of a second baptism in the Spirit. But only the first baptism upon initial faith in God. It still seems very 'forced' for backing-up Scripture...


:)
Luke.
Yep, it WAS Ephesians 5:18b. Me bad!!!

Your Gr. explanations are rather 'magical' - hence me being 'jealous' of you learning it!! Like passive voice meaning 'someone else is doing the action to you'. Wow, 'get God to be continually filling you' sort of thing: I just love that!

In Messages in The Inner Room etc., if I have picked up (sometimes from the Amplified) that the Greek is like you've explained in this verse, I usually tell readers that it's "present continuous" being the best way I can explain it. You may cringe at that, but it's the best I can do - because there are numbers of places in the NT where to NOT understand this means you can quite misunderstand what God is saying!!! (serious!)

For example, maybe you'd like to share the Gr. for 1 John Ch 3:9 where as I understand it the KJV translates this quite misleadingly and incorrectly, whereas the NIV that so often gets slammed as a "bad" translation at least makes it decently clear and UNDERSTANDABLE!!





Okay, I don't think that "Second Blessing" people are calling it a "second baptism/filling" at all, but a 2nd blessing added to the blessing of being BORN AGAIN (and for those using the expression baptised in the Spirit, meaning the FIRST time of being FILLED with the Spirit (or baptised in). Which is what I've said previously: It's Scripturally clear that we all get the Holy Spirit living in us at conversion. But then experientially many, if not most, in the West don't get FILLED with Him until later - if at all!!

To explain: I think there may be two issues here where you said that if you read the Scriptures without input from outside that you'd come to the conclusion that initial faith in Jesus brings the baptism (filling) of the Spirit.

1. In this particular situation, starting from scratch, and reading all I could find about the Spirit, it's quite possible I'd agree with you!! But at this stage of my walk with Jesus, I've come to understand that you may NEVER assume that something is CLEARLY said by God when this is NOT SO!! Decades ago I simply didn't understand this important and practical truth. But now I have to say that I still don't know of a verse that says for sure that we're filled at conversion. (Maybe you have one?) And if not for sure, then I will NOT say it's for sure!! (unless/until I may be shown otherwise). Do you agree with me on this stance that I could perhaps call "Scriptural certainty", that I've taken for many many years now?

2. The OT and the NT are not a collection of books to be just read. OR just read looking for doctrine (and I'm about as 'doctrine-oriented' a person as you could find anywhere!) We read them to find out things like: Who God Is, How to Connect to Him, How to Live out the Life that Results from That, and so on. That is, Doctrine AND Practice. ONE WITHOUT THE OTHER will seriously lead us up the creek. And I note that a lot of Practice is ALREADY spelt out in the Scriptures - but certainly NOT ALL!!

That is, we have to read the NT, discover it's truths, then start to live them. Until then, they are DEAD and USELESS (I believe you'll understand). Thus, if I read books by Theologians, with no offense to them, I'm going to be reading something close to theory, just as surely as listening to a sermon by a preacher on a topic he's searched out from the Scriptures but is not yet himself living is also theory (which, in my view, happens a great deal, and is a quite serious problem in Western Churches). AND further, is why in my Messages I stress that I teach only what I'm living out.

FACT: God did NOT write the Scriptures so that a child could read and understand them. Rather we have to: a) get the Spirit to be our revelator or we understand nothing, and b) seek and keep on seeking ("present continuous" *hee!*) for His truth!! Only a lifetime of doing this will bring us to maturity in Christ, to a strong understanding of His truths, and to a real close walk with the Father. That is, none of this is EASY. I've often said here that: "It's NOT easy to become a true Christian," and it isn't!! NOR is it easy to effectly and clearly understand His Word!! - AND to then live it out in practice in our daily lives!!!

I hope you can see what I'm getting at here. Theology/doctrine is one thing; living the life is another. So when I reported to you about the Second Blessing AND my own life, I'm talking about living out the life - not theory, and not even theology. I call it "practice' and this is SO important.

These Men of God and me seemingly didn't get filled with the Spirit at conversion (in many cases the true moment of conversion is often very hazy in any case). So Hudson Taylor and a great pile of other "big names" all experienced what I've set down above and previously. The NT doesn't speak of it. It doesn't say Yes to this and it doesn't say No to this. It's silent on it. And it doesn't say we all get filled at conversion either - we can only say that by inference or assumption.

Please note, I just LOVE the idea of being filled at conversion. With proper teaching of the Scriptures, along with effective and serious REPENTANCE (sadly quite uncommon) I actually cannot see why a person could not be filled at conversion, which is what we see happening in Acts (just not PROMISED per se!) And I'm going out on a quite long limb here by saying I strongly suspect that: 1) lack of understanding of the filling with the Spirit in past times, PLUS: 2) in other cases no serious or effective repentance, singly or together are likely to be the major reasons that I and others have to get filled later. If I'm right that's incredibly SAD!!!

IMO, you can be a major acquisition on CFS, my friend. Bless you much in Jesus the King!!

- BM
 

LukeLuke

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Nov 2, 2009
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Hi Bondman!

I'll excitedly begin with 1 John 3:9....

In the Greek,

πᾶς ὁ γεγεννημένος ἐκ τοῦ θεοῦ ἁμαρτίαν οὐ ποιεῖ, ὅτι σπέρμα αὐτοῦ ἐν αὐτῷ μένει· καὶ οὐ δύναται ἁμαρτάνειν, ὅτι ἐκ τοῦ θεοῦ γεγέννηται.

My (very) literal translation of this....

Everyone who has been born from God does not sin, because his seed is abiding in him and he is not able to sin, because he has been born from God.

The key understanding, that doesn't come through in the english language, is the word in red... It is in the present tense (in the infinitive mood). This means that it has an implication of process or CONTINUOUS action.

A good understanding of this is simply that a Christian is not able to continue sinning... This I've experienced (and I'm sure all other Christians have!) in the way that whenever I PURPOSEFULLY sin I feel like my soul is ripping apart at the seams and I'm in internal torture because I'm abusing the grace of my Lord. I think in extreme paraphrase... (if not taken too far) A true Christian cannot remain in that torture. When He does sin (as He will) he wants to repent (change his mind about it) and NOT CONTINUE doing it. I think this verse then applies to someone who claims to be a Christian but finds no struggle (torture! leading to repentance) in (for example) MAINTAINING sexual relations before marriage. Sin is not something a Christian should be able to maintain. However! If you are in this situation and keep pushing boundaries and seeking sin more than God, then fear the Lord and turn from it to life (Pro 16:6). You are walking into death (Pro 7:6-27). Romans 7, 8, 5:18-6:23 holds a worthwhile argument of Paul's to know well on this.

... enough sermon now... :)


1. In this particular situation, starting from scratch, and reading all I could find about the Spirit, it's quite possible I'd agree with you!! But at this stage of my walk with Jesus, I've come to understand that you may NEVER assume that something is CLEARLY said by God when this is NOT SO!! Decades ago I simply didn't understand this important and practical truth. But now I have to say that I still don't know of a verse that says for sure that we're filled at conversion. (Maybe you have one?) And if not for sure, then I will NOT say it's for sure!! (unless/until I may be shown otherwise). Do you agree with me on this stance that I could perhaps call "Scriptural certainty", that I've taken for many many years now?
I completely AGREE with this fabulous principle! ... I find it difficult when people develop a formulated theory on a subject in the Bible (and teach it!), which the Lord Himself has not revealed (been clear on). It is ok NOT to know everything :)
Proverbs 25:2
It is the glory of God to conceal things, but the glory of kings is to search things out.

This isn't to say that we aren't to search and know all we can which is written about a truth, but before that remember the first half of that proverb.


In fact, dwelling on this, it is clear that in the scriptures there is definitely not any ONE way which people come to faith, as we can even see today. Some people don't have a specific POINT in which they remember, but more of a journey to realisation... People born into the church thing many may not have a specific moment in time, but like me, wanted to actually start taking seriously and KNOW Jesus well. I 'gave my life' in Kids Church and I know the gracious King honoured that, but it was only a few years ago I actually took Him 'seriously'... So in all this, I guess, this whole posting-questions-fest was more a concern and query into the speaking of faith conversions needing a second filling witnessed by tongues. In no way am I saying that if tongues was witnessed is it fake, just saying that not all have this experience - and they are Spirit filled regardless of this experience (1Cor 12:30). And in all this still saying God doesn't have a formula for conversion - even the 'sinners prayer' we made up to help us (though 1Kg 8:35 is a good justification for it) as well as 'altar' calls. Not explicitly in Scripture. Many ways the Lord works He does.

I would say that Eph 1:13 is proof that the Holy Spirit 'seals' at faith - knowing that the word translated as 'believe' is the same word which means faith and trust. It is not a head-belief. It is a faith-trust which saves.

FACT: God did NOT write the Scriptures so that a child could read and understand them. Rather we have to: a) get the Spirit to be our revelator or we understand nothing
AMEN! 2 Pt 1:20-21, 2 Pt 3:15-(16!)-17, 1Cor 8:2.



Thanks for the replies bondman, it has been quite a journey thus far :)

Luke.
 
Nov 19, 2009
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I have been recently baptised in the Holy Spirit with the evidence of other tongues. I can now pray with more boldness and power so much that it affects the area and people around me. This has been a topic we usually close due to its seemingly controversial nature. I have now opened a seperate forum for us to discuss this subject so each one of us can understand and experience the power of God in our lives.

Praise the Lord. This is really great! I'm excited for you.
 
Wow, brother of mine, you said you were excited about this! - ME TOO!!! My comments are in this colour:

Hi Bondman!

I'll excitedly begin with 1 John 3:9....

In the Greek,

πᾶς ὁ γεγεννημένος ἐκ τοῦ θεοῦ ἁμαρτίαν οὐ ποιεῖ, ὅτι σπέρμα αὐτοῦ ἐν αὐτῷ μένει· καὶ οὐ δύναται ἁμαρτάνειν, ὅτι ἐκ τοῦ θεοῦ γεγέννηται.

My (very) literal translation of this....

Everyone who has been born from God does not sin, because his seed is abiding in him and he is not able to sin, because he has been born from God.

The key understanding, that doesn't come through in the english language, is the word in red... It is in the present tense (in the infinitive mood). This means that it has an implication of process or CONTINUOUS action.
That is all fabbo!! Love it - here's my "green envy" coming through that you can interpret the mood and tense of the Greek!

My The Englishman's Greek New Testament of 1877 gives the literal translation straight under the words in actual Greek as follows: Anyone (lit. everyone) that has been begotten of God, sin not practises, because seed his in him abides, and he is not able to sin, because of God he has been begotten. (I just about know that off by heart!!)

FOR COMMENT: Would you agree with the word poiei which they translate as "practises"? It seems to get the verse off to a 'good start' of truth, as it's not saying "does not sin" which is clearly wrong (and nonsense to boot!), but rather "does not [continue to] practise sin". Actually you don't say it above but I now see it straight below as "not able to continue sinning", so what I asked doesn't need to be!...

I remember as a young Christian maybe 19 or 20 years old, striking the verse in the KJV which of course says FLATLY "does not sin", and clearly remember thinking, "Doesn't sin - how can THAT possibly be?" I was soon getting into the Greek because of problems like that (in the best way I could), and around the same time was actually GIVEN my so precious possession of 1877 mentioned above I soon discovered the far more accurate translation into English, which makes total sense - and is the TRUTH!!! And a highly important one at that, as you very ably spell out below.

A good understanding of this is simply that a Christian is not able to continue sinning... This I've experienced (and I'm sure all other Christians have!) in the way that whenever I PURPOSEFULLY sin I feel like my soul is ripping apart at the seams and I'm in internal torture because I'm abusing the grace of my Lord. I think in extreme paraphrase... (if not taken too far) A true Christian cannot remain in that torture. When He does sin (as He will) he wants to repent (change his mind about it) and NOT CONTINUE doing it. I think this verse then applies to someone who claims to be a Christian but finds no struggle (torture! leading to repentance) in (for example) MAINTAINING sexual relations before marriage. Sin is not something a Christian should be able to maintain. However! If you are in this situation and keep pushing boundaries and seeking sin more than God, then fear the Lord and turn from it to life (Pro 16:6). You are walking into death (Pro 7:6-27). Romans 7, 8, 5:18-6:23 holds a worthwhile argument of Paul's to know well on this.

... enough sermon now... :)
People ask me, "How can I be sure that he/she is born again?" A common answer is, "By the good fruits of their life." That's Scriptural and helpful. But the verse we're looking at here I think maybe says it even better. Ask, "Can they quite easily continue to sin? Are they doing so right now?" and if the answer is Yes both times, then that's a mighty strong red flag!!

I shall get to the rest below ASAP!!

Peace and love!

- BM

I completely AGREE with this fabulous principle! ... I find it difficult when people develop a formulated theory on a subject in the Bible (and teach it!), which the Lord Himself has not revealed (been clear on). It is ok NOT to know everything :)
Proverbs 25:2
It is the glory of God to conceal things, but the glory of kings is to search things out.

This isn't to say that we aren't to search and know all we can which is written about a truth, but before that remember the first half of that proverb.


In fact, dwelling on this, it is clear that in the scriptures there is definitely not any ONE way which people come to faith, as we can even see today. Some people don't have a specific POINT in which they remember, but more of a journey to realisation... People born into the church thing many may not have a specific moment in time, but like me, wanted to actually start taking seriously and KNOW Jesus well. I 'gave my life' in Kids Church and I know the gracious King honoured that, but it was only a few years ago I actually took Him 'seriously'... So in all this, I guess, this whole posting-questions-fest was more a concern and query into the speaking of faith conversions needing a second filling witnessed by tongues. In no way am I saying that if tongues was witnessed is it fake, just saying that not all have this experience - and they are Spirit filled regardless of this experience (1Cor 12:30). And in all this still saying God doesn't have a formula for conversion - even the 'sinners prayer' we made up to help us (though 1Kg 8:35 is a good justification for it) as well as 'altar' calls. Not explicitly in Scripture. Many ways the Lord works He does.

I would say that Eph 1:13 is proof that the Holy Spirit 'seals' at faith - knowing that the word translated as 'believe' is the same word which means faith and trust. It is not a head-belief. It is a faith-trust which saves.


AMEN! 2 Pt 1:20-21, 2 Pt 3:15-(16!)-17, 1Cor 8:2.



Thanks for the replies bondman, it has been quite a journey thus far :)

Luke.
 
Nov 19, 2009
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I cannot find categoric Scripture to either confirm or deny that getting born again means you're filled with the Holy Spirit.

Acts 19:2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.

[They were already believer, already saved]


Acts 8:14 Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John: 15Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost.

[The people at Samaria believed and received the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ that was preached, so they were already saved. They recieved Jesus. After this, they will be baptised with the Holy Ghost]
 

Dusty

Inactive
Jul 27, 2007
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Romans 5:5
And hope does not disappoint us, because God has poured out his love into our hearts by the Holy Spirit, whom he has given us.


2 Timothy 1:14
Guard the good deposit that was entrusted to you—guard it with the help of the Holy Spirit who lives in us.


Titus 3:5
he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit
 
Nov 7, 2009
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This thread has been just awesome to me to read! So much more understanding then I had before...thank you all for sharing so much great insight in the scriptres..I know the Holy Spirit wanted me to read this and get a better understanding.

Praise the Lord!!

Mary
 
Titus 3:5
he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit
On the question that Luke and I have been searching into: are we baptised with the Spirit at our conversion, or can this be later, this is an interesting verse, Dusty.

Starts of by saying "He saved us" so this is happening at our conversion. First thing that happens is a washing of rebirth or regeneration. Most likely referring to water baptism that so many think is just SYMBOLIC, but it's far more than that in that the OUTWARD SIGN is showing an INWARD TRANSACTION and TRUTH. Acts Ch 22:16 And now why are you waiting? Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord. Matthew Henry calles it both a sign and a seal. Love it!!

Second thing is "renewal by the Holy Spirit". Who can renew us, change us, make us new BUT the Holy Spirit of the Living God? None can ever be born again, saved, except He first draw us, then change us. Changing us from death to life, from darkness to life, from sin to righteousness, or at least to the wondrous potential for righteousness (right living of a kind that is pleasing to God). And from that moment this Holy Spirit - Who Jesus promised to send to us - lives with us and within us!!

From the context and the Greek (of which I am no expert, but have done my best to search it for the past 50 years when trying to know a truth for CERTAIN) I don't think this is speaking of the baptism of the Spirit, or the filling with the Spirit per se but simply of the quite essential work of the Holy Spirit in our rebirth.

- BM
 

Dusty

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Wow, how wonderful to see you Dusty!! You were missed!

Much love and many blessings!!

- BM
Thank you for your kind remark . I will try to be here from time to time .

Ok my understanding of this verse ;
Titus 3:5
he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit


Not water baptism but the cleansing of the H. S. when we are saved . Water baptism comes later . If you go to the story of the woman at the well , Jesus tells her that He is the living water and she shall never thirst again if she drinks from that water . The H. S. is symbolic of that water . The water of the H. S. is cleansing and gives new life .... life giving water . .... regeneration.

John 7:37



37On the last and greatest day of the Feast, Jesus stood and said in a loud voice, "If anyone is thirsty, let him come to me and drink





 
Dusty, I really like your concept of the washing of rebirth as referring to a washing by the Holy Spirit (rather than my suggestion of water baptism) and I can understand your logical connection with Jesus' living water. He certainly did say to come to him for this!! How wonderful!

But thus far I can find no Scripture actually connecting water and the Holy Spirit, or actually connecting washing with the Holy Spirit (or both). In the process I found them "disconnected' as though to be considered separate: John 3:5 Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. Thus born of water AND of the Spirit as two separate things.

Then water baptism doesn't necessarily come later (this seemingly being more of a Western convention we've adopted - like, whilst waiting to see if they're truly saved!!) The very powerful verse concerned with Paul's conversion that I quoted: Acts Ch 22:16 And now why are you waiting? Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord, seems to be directly tying up water baptism with our sins being washed away, as well as believing in Jesus (calling on His name) - all at once! Oh, I really DO like that!! Here OUR transaction with God that we're doing in baptism is shown as very important for the washing away of our sins. (And it seems obvious that the Holy Spirit would need to be doing the "Godward" part of this.)

I was just thinking that I'd love to have originally Believed in Jesus, immediately into the water being baptised, and maybe God adding the blessing of filling me with the Holy Spirit when I came out. Pretty-much all at once like that would've been AWESOME!!

You were one of the first I met when I found CFS at the very end of 2007, and it will be our joy to have you here whenever you can be.

With many, many blessings!!

- BM