Bible Chronology.

[BibleLover]

I would think "evening and morning...one day" along with the genealogies are misleading if so-called scientific discoveries of an old earth of millions of years turn out to be true.
But if push comes to shove, I'll take God's Word any day over scientific discoveries, as science is based on observable phenomena (sight) and faith is based on hearing God's Word .

Romans 10:17 (KJV) So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Hebrews 11:3 (KJV) Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.
2 Corinthians 5:7 (KJV) (For we walk by faith, not by sight



True, God never revealed the date of creation (and neither should we), whereas 'empirical science' does, it even rejects the notion of 'a creation' to begin with.

Are we scientists who follow the beliefs of science, or are we Christians who follow God and his Word? We don't need to concern ourselves with what science says, we must only concern ourselves with what Scripture says. Let the science followers follow their science; on Judgment Day, they can see whether their science will save them.

 

[Major]

If God misleads on the foundational chapters, how can He be trusted elsewhere?

Excellent point. However I personally do not think that the time of Creation is an issue where God did any misleading at all.
The time of the Creation was never an issue until the Creation vs Evolution debate came about. I may be wrong on this time and anyone can correct me.

For God to purposefully "mislead" He would have had to have made a comment on the date He created everything and He did not do that.
As has been stated, the Bible does not give us a date of creation.

Now it gives us hints and inclinations that would indicate in many cases a young earth.

What has happened, IMHO, we (People-Humanity) have grown smarter and today you get all this physics and mathematics along with smart computers and they have shown us an "expanding universe " and all this astronomical dating, and triangulation and all that stuff coming from outside the church that makes me wonder.

 

[Major]

I never attended Church as a kid, maybe that is where I missed out.

Last I checked "evening and morning" (mentioned 6 times in Gen 1) equals one day

Yes it does if you agree with the Young Earth theology.

If you are of the Old Earth theology then those days would be "ages".

 

[Major]

Are we scientists who follow the beliefs of science, or are we Christians who follow God and his Word? We don't need to concern ourselves with what science says, we must only concern ourselves with what Scripture says. Let the science followers follow their science; on Judgment Day, they can see whether their science will save them.

With all respect to you brother, and I have no intent to argue this but.........if there is no room for science in our lives, what do you think would be happening right now if science had not developed anti-biotics? Or the vaccine for small pox or TB or Polio?

The list of Christian scientists that have made astounding discoveries is long.

IMHO......we have to be careful to not discount those who do not necessarily agree with us, but their disagreement is not even in the Bible, such as our discussion on the age of creation.

Today, everyone on the face of the earth KNOWS that the earth revolves around the SUN. But that was not the case up to 1609!
Remember Galileo? He was a Christian.
He discovered in 1609 that the geocentric view that the Earth was the center of the universe and that all heavenly bodies revolved around the Earth was faculty wrong.

But the church rejected his observations. They announced that heliocentrism contradicted the Holy Scriptures and thus his claims and observations amounted to heresy.

 

[crossnote]

Yes it does if you agree with the Young Earth theology.

If you are of the Old Earth theology then those days would be "ages".

I just wonder how they get 'ages' out of "evening and morning one day"

 

[crossnote]

With all respect to you brother, and I have no intent to argue this but.........if there is no room for science in our lives, what do you think would be happening right now if science had not developed anti-biotics? Or the vaccine for small pox or TB or Polio?

The list of Christian scientists that have made astounding discoveries is long.

IMHO......we have to be careful to not discount those who do not necessarily agree with us, but their disagreement is not even in the Bible, such as our discussion on the age of creation.

Today, everyone on the face of the earth KNOWS that the earth revolves around the SUN. But that was not the case up to 1609!
Remember Galileo? He was a Christian.
He discovered in 1609 that the geocentric view that the Earth was the center of the universe and that all heavenly bodies revolved around the Earth was faculty wrong.

But the church rejected his observations. They announced that heliocentrism contradicted the Holy Scriptures and thus his claims and observations amounted to heresy.

'Science' has its own 'heresies' as it attempts to explain miracles found in Scripture (but not in the external world), such as..

1. The parting of the Red Sea.
2. Feeding the 5000
3. Creation (out of nothing).
4. Water into wine.
5 Sun standing still/Earth stops revolving (depending on one's vantage point)
6 Many resurrections, especially Christ's

 

[crossnote]

For God to purposefully "mislead" He would have had to have made a comment on the date He created everything and He did not do that.
As has been stated, the Bible does not give us a date of creation.

Agreed, my only point in post #28 "At least Usher's opinion of 4000 years is much closer to the truth than millions of years.",
which is also an opinion without placing an actual 'creation date'.

 

[Major]

'Science' has its own 'heresies' as it attempts to explain miracles found in Scripture (but not in the external world), such as..

1. The parting of the Red Sea.
2. Feeding the 5000
3. Creation (out of nothing).
4. Water into wine.
5 Sun standing still/Earth stops revolving (depending on one's vantage point)
6 Many resurrections, especially Christ's

I agree totally. However......when we look at those examples it becomes clear that they were made by those who were trying to disprove the existence of God.

That is not science doing it but "people" who do not know God. There is a difference.

 

[Major]

I just wonder how they get 'ages' out of "evening and morning one day"

Most people who are of the Old Earth theology do not contend anything about a 7 day Creation process and they do not argue for evolution. They are simply saying that there was something here before Genesis 1.

In Genesis the Hebrew word for DAY is "YOM". However there is a problem there.

The Hebrew word yom translated into the English “day” can mean more than one thing.

1. It can refer to the 24-hour period of time that it takes for the earth to rotate on its axis ( “there are 24 hours in a day”).
2. It can refer to the period of daylight between dawn and dusk (e.g., “it gets pretty hot during the day but it cools down a bit at night”). 3. 3. And it can refer to an unspecified period of time (e.g., “back in my grandfather’s day . . .”).

It is used to refer to a 24-hour period in Genesis 7:11. It is used to refer to the period of daylight between dawn and dusk in Genesis 1:16. And it is used to refer to an unspecified period of time in Genesis 2:4.

Now, the Bible uses the Hebrew phrase ‘Yom Echad’ or ‘one day’ in English – for a reason, and that reason is with the intent of marking the first period of time which was called ‘a day.’

Now if we take the Bible as literal, you will see the problem right here-----there could not be a day until the Sun was created and that was not until day FOUR!

The light in Genesis 1:3 is not the Sun. The Sun was created in Genesis 1:16.

Of course, God does not need the sun, moon, and stars to provide light. God is light! 1 John 1:5 declares,..........
"This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in Him there is no darkness at all."
God Himself was the light for the first three days of Creation, just as He will be in the new heavens and new earth.

So those who are Old Earth are saying that there could not be a "DAY" without the Sun and the Earth rotating around it causing a DAY.

In other words, now when ‘God called the light Day, and the darkness He called Night’ appeared in the ‘first day of Creation’ it is in fact the invention of the CONCEPT of a DAY. This is why the original Hebrew does not talk about ‘the first day’ but rather the period of time from one evening to the next evening and that is called ONE DAY (‘Yom Echad’).

Now......before anyone challenges this......I am not an advocate for this. I am only answering cossnotes question with the explanation.

 

[cocoa]

I've skimmed thru this thread... would it be a derailment if we talked about space exploration? Specifically, the idea that many people believe that us humans can't actually leave earth and the firmament serves as some kind of dome (snow globe style).

If this is too off topic... I can create a separate thread. I was just wondering, since we're talking science.

 

[Major]

I've skimmed thru this thread... would it be a derailment if we talked about space exploration? Specifically, the idea that many people believe that us humans can't actually leave earth and the firmament serves as some kind of dome (snow globe style).

If this is too off topic... I can create a separate thread. I was just wondering, since we're talking science.

That sounds a lot like "Flat Earth" theology.

 

[crossnote]

Most people who are of the Old Earth theology do not contend anything about a 7 day Creation process and they do not argue for evolution. They are simply saying that there was something here before Genesis 1.

Is this referring to the old dispensationalist gappies? That would be pure speculation.

The Hebrew word yom translated into the English “day” can mean more than one thing.

Evening and morning would equal one day, which would be a 24-hour day; anything else would be speculation. I'll go with that definition when considering 'day' in its context of creation.

The light in Genesis 1:3 is not the Sun. The Sun was created in Genesis 1:16.

Of course, God does not need the sun, moon, and stars to provide light.

I see 'light' as understanding, which is what happens when God speaks His Word.

 

[Major]

Is this referring to the old dispensationalist gappies? That would be pure speculation.

Evening and morning would equal one day, which would be a 24-hour day; anything else would be speculation. I'll go with that definition when considering 'day' in its context of creation.

I see 'light' as understanding, which is what happens when God speaks His Word.

No. Old Earth is not dispentionalistic. Dispensationalism is nothing more than a space of time.

I understand the DAY thing, however, there could not be a 24 hour DAY without the Sun which did not get created until day 4 in Genesis 1:16.
As I posted, the Hebrew word for DAY is "Yom" and it can mean several different things.

I agree with the "light" thing being when God speaks. But in this case, the context means something else.

I would say however that His presence would cause extreme light which is what we see in Rev. 22.

 

[crossnote]

No. Old Earth is not dispentionalistic. Dispensationalism is nothing more than a space of time.

By 'dispensational gappies', I was referring to the Gap Theory put forth by early Dispensationalists.

I understand the DAY thing, however, there could not be a 24 hour DAY without the Sun which did not get created until day 4 in Genesis 1:16.
As I posted, the Hebrew word for DAY is "Yom" and it can mean several different things.

Yet, those reading Moses account would already know what an evening and morning were.

I agree with the "light" thing being when God speaks. But in this case, the context means something else.

What would that something else be?

I would say however that His presence would cause extreme light which is what we see in Rev. 22.

Agreed.

 

[Major]

By 'dispensational gappies', I was referring to the Gap Theory put forth by early Dispensationalists.

Yet, those reading Moses account would already know what an evening and morning were.

What would that something else be?

Agreed.

I understand but it should be noted that the "Gap Theory" is an egg which was not hatched by dispensationalism.
It should also be noted that there is a "literary gap" view and a "young earth creation/chaos/restoration view" neither of which insert a long time period between verses 1 and 2, but which still attribute the conditions of verse 2 to a judgment associated with the fall of Satan and his angels before the creation process in Genesis.

Those reading the Moses account did not have all the information we now have.

"Something else" was in relation to the actual light which was not the Sun.

 

[YeshuaFan]

Well, right here is a problem which does not allow for discussion.

When we or anyone goes into a discussion with a "bias" there is always the opportunity for conflict instead of growth.

In this particular topic, we should not come with a ........."but would see them as being wrong".....or "They are not Biblical grounded" and even worse than that......"Those people are not saved".

That kind of thinking is spiritual elitism and Biblically wrong because we read in In Matthew 23:12 , where Jesus states, .....
"For whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted."

This verse underscores the importance of humility in the eyes of God.

The Creation of the universe is something we can discuss and talk about, and have opinions on but the fact is we simply do not know.

Just was saying that even the true science facts would not be sporting an aging of :billions and billions" of years, as di find that many have gotten on the Theistic evolutionary bandwagon as a misguided attempt to try to reconcile scriptures with the "facts" of evolution , as if that theory has now become concrete fatual

 

[YeshuaFan]

Curious minds want to know???

My goal is not to contradict the existing Biblical scriptures on the subject, but to put constraints on what is and is not biblically allowable.

One can support Young/Old earth and be Christian. my point is that a younger Earth is better supported by both bible and real science

 

[YeshuaFan]

I never attended Church as a kid, maybe that is where I missed out.

Last I checked "evening and morning" (mentioned 6 times in Gen 1) equals one day

In the Book of Genesis, the Hebrew word "yom" (יום), commonly translated as "day," appears 7 times referring to a single, 24-hour day in the creation account. In Genesis 1, "yom" is used with the phrase "evening and morning" to define each of the six days of creation as a single 24-hour period. Additionally, "yom" is used with cardinal and ordinal numbers (first, second, etc.) throughout Genesis 1, further emphasizing the 24-hour interpretation.

 

[YeshuaFan]

God never misleads. It is we who misunderstand God. No matter what anything in our sensory perception or our so-called knowledge shows. If our reality contradicts Scripture, then our reality is wrong.

We always end up in trouble when we try to exceed the limits of the revelation God gave us. When Eve said God said she would die if she "touched" the fruit, she caused herself to fall by exceeding the limits of God's revelation.

God never revealed to us the date of creation. People took incomplete material and used HUMAN reason to figure out a creation date. If God would have wanted us to know the date, he would have specifically placed it in his revelation.

True, and the essential truth about Genesis God wanted us to know was that He created all of creation period, and that Man was His crowning achievement , and that we should take Genesis as factual historical account of what really happened

 

[Major]

One can support Young/Old earth and be Christian. my point is that a younger Earth is better supported by both bible and real science

I am not sure that is the case. I for one can not tell either way is supported in the Scriptures or science.