Only if He were merely human, like me. Being Divine, He was able to bear the trangressions of all mankind for all time and accomplish the work of salvation in a short period of time.
Bible doesn't teach eternal hell
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Only if He were merely human, like me. Being Divine, He was able to bear the trangressions of all mankind for all time and accomplish the work of salvation in a short period of time.
I guess "everlasting" means temporary?
10 whole years!
I have you beat by several years my friend.
You said.......................................
"I reject the idea of eternal punishment and my God and my Bible doesn't teach it."
Mark 9:43-47,
"And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: and if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire".
No one in the Bible said more than did Jesus on hell:
hell is a place of "fire" Matt 7:19, 13:40, 25:41
hell is the "furnace of fire" Matt 13:42, 50
hell is "the fire that never shall be quenched" Mark 9:43, 45
hell is the place where "the fire is not quenched" Mark 9:44, 46, 48
hell is a place of "everlasting fire" Matt 18:8, 25:41
hell is "damnation" Matt 23:14, Mark 12:40, Luke 20:47
hell is the "damnation of hell" Matt 23:33
hell is the place of "eternal damnation" Mark 3:29
hell is the "resurrection of damnation" John 5:29
in hell "their worm dieth not" Mark 9:44, 46, 48
in hell there will be "wailing and gnashing of teeth" Matt 13:42, 50
in hell there will be "weeping and gnashing of teeth" Matt 8:12, 22:13, 25:30
hell is a "place of torment" Luke 16:28
hell will have various "torments" Luke 16:23 (note that "torments" is in the plural)
hell is the place where the damned will be "tormented in this flame" Luke 16:24
hell is a place of "outer darkness" Matt 8:12, 22:13
hell will be "everlasting punishment" Matt 25:46
Consider other examples of how the Bible warns that HELL is ETERNAL/EVERLASTING:
everlasting fire - Matthew18:8, 25:41
everlasting punishment - Matthew 25:46
everlasting chains - Jude 1:6
everlasting destruction - 2 Thessalonians 1:9
eternal damnation - Mark 3:29
eternal judgment - Hebrews 6:2
eternal fire - Jude 1:7
unquenchable fire - Matthew 3:12
the fire that never shall be quenched - Mark 9:43, 44, 45, 46, 48
fire unquenchable - Luke 3:17
shame and everlasting contempt - Daniel 12:2
mist of darkness is reserved for ever - 2 Peter 2:17
the blackness of darkness for ever - Jude 1:13
IF you believe HEAVEN is real and Jesus taught us that it was, how then can you reject HELL and He taught more on HELL than did He on Heaven.
Wow! Thank you for those scriptures! I thank God that He sent His one and only Son to die for me so that I may have a CHOICE to choose Him!
MinisterTony
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Where does the verse say a fire will burn forever?
And why do you want to believe that God will torture the lost forever in total agony and pain forever? Could you stand back for even 1 minute and watch a dog burn and suffer in a fire? Yet you believe God will stand back and watch billions of people for all eternity scream out in total pain which will never cease? Do you really believe God is like that?
What would you think about me if you saw me pour fuel over a person, then ignite it and stand back and watch that person scream and scream in total terror and pain and agony as they burned alive?
MinisterTony
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Realise and understand something very crucial. The term "for ever, eternal, everlasting" as used in the English Bible, means simply a period of time, limited or unlimited. It is used 56 times in the Bible in connection with things that have already ended! The Greek word for "eternal" and "forever" (aionios) denotes a period of time and I can prove it because it's all over the Bible!
So let me ask you a question...if "everlasting" means forever and never ending in English Bibles, then how come things and events, over 50 times, that is said to have been "everlasting" has ended? Do you have an answer for that?
MinisterTony
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Every single verse you have quoted does NOT teach eternal torture or eternal hellfire. Not a single one of them. If you went to Bible college and studied Koine Greek and then read the original language, then you would do a backflip and admit that none of those verses you quoted teach eternal hellfire.
And you are wrong when you claimed that Jesus spoke about HELL, because Jesus never ever taught HELL, in fact Jesus never used the word "HELL". Jesus never used such a word at all! HELL is an English word, and Jesus didn't speak in English!
Jesus talked about Gehenna and Gehenna was a literal rubbish dump, but English translators used the English word HELL for this, but in the Greek there is no such word as hell. Jesus spoke about Gehenna, and there the refuse and bodies of animals were cast into an eversmoldering fire to be consumed. What might escape the flames was constantly being destroyed by maggots or worms which fed on the dead bodies. Gehenna symbolized a place of total destruction. Nothing to do with an eternal hellfire place at all.
Let me ask you something....what language did Jesus speak in? Do you know? If so, then tell me. Then the next question I have for you is to show me in the original manuscripts Jesus using the word "HELL". Can you? If so, show me in the Koine Greek or Aramaic where Jesus used the word "HELL".
And I want to explain something to you about the worms. According to you, because you quoted Mark 9:44, 46, 48, worms are giving eternal life and will never die. Now let me ask you something...do you truly and sincerely believe God will give worms immortality and eternal life?
Would you like me to explain the worms verses to you? Because surely you are not truly believing worms will live forever and be given immortality?
And another thing I want you to do for me, can you please explain these verses for me, because
the Bible says the lost and all those who rejected Jesus , suffer "death" (Romans 6:23) , suffer "destruction" (Job 21:30), "shall perish" (Psalm 37:20), will "burn" up [Not a root or a branch will be left to them.] (Malachi 4:1), "shall be destroyed together" (Psalm 37:38), the wicked shall not be (Psa 37:10), will "consume away" (Psalm 37:20), "shall be cut off" (Psalm 37:9), "shall be slain" (Psalm 62:3), God will "destroy" them (Psalm 145:20), "fire will devour them." (Psalm 21:9) They shall be as though they had not been.(Oba 1 16), they shall be as nothing; and they that strive with thee shall perish (Isa 41:11), the wicked be no more (Psa 104:35), the wicked no more (Pro 10:25)
And the last thing I ask that you explain for me is that how can so many things and events have ended that the Bible says would last forever?
I look forward to you replying.
What exactly is being referred to? And I'm sorry but everlasting, eternal, forever, never ending, mean exactly what they say! Then I would assume that it is believed that eternal life with Christ in Heaven is also temporary, or in this case is there opposite meaning of these words?So let me ask you a question...if "everlasting" means forever and never ending in English Bibles, then how come things and events, over 50 times, that is said to have been "everlasting" has ended? Do you have an answer for that?
Just curious, whoever, whosoever, are not all inclusive either?
MinisterTony
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So for clarity purposes, are you saying that everytime the English bible says something will last forever, everlasting that it literally meant forever and everlasting? Yes?
If your answer is yes, then I have a question for you. Can you please explain to me why these events ended, seeing the Bible says they would last forever.
1. Edom, in Isa 34:6-11 It says Edom was to burn forever and never be quenched and it's smoke will rise forever and ever. How come Edom turned to ashes and stopped burning? In fact, Edom today is at the bottom of the sea. Can you explain this because the English Bible says it will keep burning forever.
2. In Jonah 2:6, "for ever" turned into "three days and nights." (See also Jonah 1:17). How is that possible? For ever would mean forever right? So why did it only last 3 days if it was forever?
3. Paul says that runaway slave Onesimus would return back home where he would be received "forever". (KJV Philemon 15) But Onesimus is not still there today 2000 years later! Why not? In fact "forever" was translated differently in the NIV translation, and said, "have him back for good".
4. The Bible says that King David was to be king "forever". 1 Chron 28:2,4. Later this "forever" is specified as 40 years. Can you please explain to me how "forever" turned into 40 years?
I will ask that you answer those 4 for starters because I have another 50 such cases to ask you to answer for me if you want.
By the way, to answer your second part of your post, the saved and redeemed will be given IMMORTALITY and access to the Tree of Life in Paradise, so that's why they will live forever, but the lost don't get immortality or entrance into Paradise and the Tree of Life, so they cannot live forever. See 1 Cor 15:51-54. The Greek word for "immortality" in this passage is ["aphtharsia"] and according to Strong’s Concordance and any Greek Concordance means "unending existence, deathlessness". This is only applied to the saved, never to the lost, hence the lost will cease to exist!
Absolutely!
Each and everyone of the four examples are not relevant to the OP. The context of these are not the same as the context of eternal damnation.
6 I went down to the bottoms of the mountains;
The earth with her bars was about me for ever:
Yet hast thou brought up my life from corruption, O Lord my God.
Had God not brought him up, he would still be there, exactly as is said. God changed this situation.
4 Howbeit the Lord God of Israel chose me before all the house of my father to be king over Israel for ever: for he hath chosen Judah to be the ruler; and of the house of Judah, the house of my father; and among the sons of my father he liked me to make me king over
God chose that David would be King forever, but what did David do to change that?
Not one of these examples change the meaning of forever. One must not "cherry pick" a particular part of a scripture to define it's meaning.
All the questions being talked about can be offered up, but they will not change the meaning of the words being discussed. Not only would it be a waste of time, but a waste of broadband.
Merely speculation for what one wishes to believe, which counters God's being just.
What's good for the goose is not good for the gander?
Jesus also said "Heaven and Earth shall pass away, but my word shall remain forever!" I think some people need to know what manner of existence he is refering to. For example: Our sinful eye's can see the first and second Heaven, but not the third. It is the throne of God. When he said Heaven and Earth shall pass away, he was refering to the first and second Heaven.
MinisterTony
Inactive
So you have cleasrly stated that you believe that every single place in English Bible it says "forever, everlasting" that is literally means that!
Yet you did not properly explain those 4 verses, because I have shown that everlasting even meant 40 years.
Another example, Jeremiah predicted that God would kindle a fire in the gates Jerusalem's palaces that would "not be quenched". See Jer 17 :27. This prediction was fulfilled by Babylonian King Nebuchadnezzor when he burnt the palaces of Jerusalem. See Jer 52:12-13. The fires although unquenchable are not still burning today. The results are irreversible, not the process.
This is not to say that the fires of gehenna will not burn for a period of time. The Greek word for "eternal" and "forever" (aionios) denotes a period of time. If Strongs Concordance on the word "ever" is consulted, you will notice that the Greek word means "an age, a period". Under the word "aionios" in the Analyical Greek Lexicon p.11 we have the following words, "a period, era, age. . . indeterminate as to duration." The latter phrase is critical. "Forever" denotes periods of time which are indeterminate and unspecified as to beginning or end.
So when the bible speaks of "eternal fire" it must be understood in the context of all it says on the subject. The fires of Sodom and Jerusalem burnt and it says "eternally" (that is a period), and the period in which it burnt brought about results that were complete in their purpose. Hence the fires of Gehenna will burn for a time and ultimately produce "destruction",that is annihilation. See Matt 10:28 where Jesus says that both soul and body will be destroyed (annihilated, Greek apolummi) in gehenna! The fires will burn until Satan and his followers will be brought to ashes and be no more.
And you didn't explain Edom. Let me show you what it says about Edom:
Isaiah 34:6-11
6 The sword of the LORD is bathed in blood,
it is covered with fat—
the blood of lambs and goats,
fat from the kidneys of rams.
For the LORD has a sacrifice in Bozrah
and a great slaughter in the land of Edom.
7 And the wild oxen will fall with them,
the bull calves and the great bulls.
Their land will be drenched with blood,
and the dust will be soaked with fat.
8 For the LORD has a day of vengeance,
a year of retribution, to uphold Zion’s cause.
9 Edom’s streams will be turned into pitch,
her dust into burning sulfur;
her land will become blazing pitch!
10 It will not be quenched night or day;
its smoke will rise forever.
From generation to generation it will lie desolate;
no one will ever pass through it again.
11 The desert owl and screech owl will possess it;
the great owl and the raven will nest there.
God will stretch out over Edom
the measuring line of chaos
and the plumb line of desolation.
The English Bible clearly says the fires of Edom will not be quenched night or day; its smoke will rise forever. Now you said that definitely evertime Bible says forever that it literally means forever. So how come Eden is not burning today and how come the smoke is not eternally going?
Good try but no cigar!
I guess since I'm 52, I have lived more than forever, (since 40 years is forever). Boy! Eternity is a very long time!
This could go on forever but I am not gonna be here that long, so it will simply have to be an "agree to disagree", Let go & Let God! resolution. Also, I do not get into such conversations when one party can not refrain from making things personal.
I guess since I'm 52, I have lived more than forever, (since 40 years is forever). Boy! Eternity is a very long time!
This could go on forever but I am not gonna be here that long, so it will simply have to be an "agree to disagree", Let go & Let God! resolution. Also, I do not get into such conversations when one party can not refrain from making things personal.
It's talking about it's people not the city itself.This is what Bible says about the city of Edom, "It will not be quenched night or day; its smoke will rise forever"
Now let me ask you a question..is Edom burning today? OR is it at the bottom of the sea?
I believe other forumers have quoted several verses regarding that.
What I believe is not important at the moment. I am merely asking you a question.
An appeal to the emotion would not be productive. I recommend we concentrate on the issue by providing biblical references.
Our opinions are not important. What is important is to have biblical basis on what we believe.
Like I said, an appeal to the emotion would not benefit us. Just please answer the question which was based on your statement:
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