Blood moons and such....

J

JohnC

I was poking around in the news - and there's another forecast of a blood moon for this month...

And of course - every (secular) nature magazine and website is full of information about "Super volcanos" and big fault shifts causing earthquakes, tsunamis, and such...

And of course - these same Nature magazines are also full of information about near misses of comets and asteroids... How much risk we face from such....

And preppers are all busy digging their holes in the ground - underground bunkers.. Storing up food..... YouTube is full of their videos... And even prominent Christian leaders are selling "prepper" supplies....

And with that forcast - there's the littany of folks pointing to Revelation 6 and Amos scriptures about bad things happening and the judgement of God..

And I have to wonder.... Do they understand what event they are proclaiming? I don't think they are connecting the dots... Because it took me a while to connect the dots myself......

The Revelation 6 passage everybody seems to be quoting pertains to the opening of the 6th seal of the "Deed" to Earth by Jesus.... But nobody seems to be connecting the dots that this is what they are actually proclaiming...

If they are proclaiming to be watchful for the inauguration of the 6th seal - that means that the 5 seals prior are already opened... I believe this is correct - the inauguration 5th seal was officially celebrated in 1953 with Yom HaShoah, and the 4th seal appears to have been opened around 1500 based on food and grain price lists I have found.....

And so being watchful for the opening of the 6th seal is prudent...... Because it's the next one....

Which brings me to another subject.... Handwringing about "Global warming". Notice that several "Woes" after the 6th seal all pertain to scorching and heat problems on earth?

And yet as per usual - the church denies God is behind any of it.... Just like every single sermon in the USA after Sept 11, 2001 was a proclamation of shaking our fist at the attackers - not a call to repentance.....

Sigh....
 
Permaculturists like to predict the end of the world when it runs out of oil so everyone will be living in comunes eating vegan food in the countryside doing yoga, I heard. I dont know if this is anything new. Most people use the moon calendar to sow and plant by, but there is evidence that a full moon brings out the crazy people who cant sleep. Because the moon is so bright they get insomnia. Lunatics!

Sorry I dont have much insight.

Sometimes I read book of revelation in the context of when it was written back when the church was first formed and Jesus predictions of the temple being destroyed came to pass. As he did say the moon will turn to blood and everyone would have to flee Judea when that happened, and it did happen. You can go there now and see well there is no temple there, and everyone did flee, and thats why there was another big jewish diaspora.

Some believers make the case for revelation happening now and related it to every bad event thats ever happened in their lifetime. There are different ways of reading it, but I suppose with revelation God has shown us whas happening in the spiritual heavenly realm as well as the in the natural. Because it is past, present and future it can can occur at any time. But I kind of am sceptical of reading it this way because if its only applying to peoppe, living in my generation what abot all the saints that have gone before? Or are we the only ones in the 'last days' well every generation likes to think they are the last.
 
JohnC said:
I was poking around in the news - and there's another forecast of a blood moon for this month...

And of course - every (secular) nature magazine and website is full of information about "Super volcanos" and big fault shifts causing earthquakes, tsunamis, and such...

And of course - these same Nature magazines are also full of information about near misses of comets and asteroids... How much risk we face from such....

And preppers are all busy digging their holes in the ground - underground bunkers.. Storing up food..... YouTube is full of their videos... And even prominent Christian leaders are selling "prepper" supplies....

And with that forcast - there's the littany of folks pointing to Revelation 6 and Amos scriptures about bad things happening and the judgement of God..

And I have to wonder.... Do they understand what event they are proclaiming? I don't think they are connecting the dots... Because it took me a while to connect the dots myself......

The Revelation 6 passage everybody seems to be quoting pertains to the opening of the 6th seal of the "Deed" to Earth by Jesus.... But nobody seems to be connecting the dots that this is what they are actually proclaiming...

If they are proclaiming to be watchful for the inauguration of the 6th seal - that means that the 5 seals prior are already opened... I believe this is correct - the inauguration 5th seal was officially celebrated in 1953 with Yom HaShoah, and the 4th seal appears to have been opened around 1500 based on food and grain price lists I have found.....

And so being watchful for the opening of the 6th seal is prudent...... Because it's the next one....

Which brings me to another subject.... Handwringing about "Global warming". Notice that several "Woes" after the 6th seal all pertain to scorching and heat problems on earth?

And yet as per usual - the church denies God is behind any of it.... Just like every single sermon in the USA after Sept 11, 2001 was a proclamation of shaking our fist at the attackers - not a call to repentance.....

Sigh....
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I'm a numbers guy - meaning I'm good with mathematics. It's the true universal language that transcends time and space. With that said, two sets of 1260 days, or two sets of 42 months, or two sets of times, time and half a time, or two sets of 3.5 years. But let's focus on the first set.

Revelation 11:3 (KJV)
And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.​

The first set of 1260 days, the length that the Two Witnesses preach.

The next set is, Israel is to hide in Jordan. These are the verses that happen at the end of the first 1260 days:

Revelation 11:7-8 (KJV)
And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them. And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.​

Matthew 24:15-16 (KJV)
When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand) Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:​

Revelation 12:6 (KJV)
And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.​

So you see, to me, with the other numbers, especially Daniel 9:27 which says this will all happen within one week of years, or seven years, which is what all the double sets of number equate to: 42+42=84 months divided by 12 is seven years. 1260+1260=2520 days divided by 360* days is seven years. Times, time and half a time is 3.5 years so 3.5+3.5=7 years. Therefore, if all being seven years in length, then the kickoff is the appearance of the two witnesses, and nothing else. And the verse prior to their arrival is the measuring of the third temple, which isn't built yet. Indeed, while there are warnings and signs, the great tribulation (mega pressure in the Greek) Matt 24:21, won't start until there's a temple and the two witnesses appear.

As to the order of events, I use Isaiah 46:10. Look at the themes of Genesis 8 back to chapter 1 and you'll see the order of the end times. But I'll let you do that homework. Stick to the word of God, it's better than end-time theories. Take if for what it's worth, but that's how I see it.
 
I can be pretty dense.... But it seems to me that Revelation 6 comes before Revelation 11...

My bigger point was:
Look at what these folks are obsessing about....

Every month - we see somebody on our side going on about blood moons (yet they don't understand WHAT these are tied to).... Ironically, we don't see Christian prophecy folks going crazy about wars, plagues, or holocost memorials like they did in the past..

Every month - the secular newspapers and nature magazines go on and on about Mega Earthquakes, super volcanos, and meteors... Interestingly "Plate tectonics" became an actual "Thing" in 1956...

Sputnik went up in 1957 followed by American satellites... And a study of space and what's up there...

The cold war amped up and everybody was building underground bunkers starting around 1956....

At that point - the interest of the world switches away from Holocost to BIG earthquakes, volcanos, space dangers, and "Digging dens in the earth" - they switched their interest to the coming 6th seal....

I just think that's interesting....

And all the while - the Church is saying "Nope, God's not doing any of that...."
 
JohnC said:
But it seems to me that Revelation 6 comes before Revelation 11
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Movies didn't invent flashbacks and parenthetical comments. Chronology isn't spelled out. Keep in mind, chapter and verse numbers came centuries after the text was written. You must take ALL verses into account in order to come to any conclusion. Just saying.
 
Here's an example for the need of all scriptures. Before Jesus' birth, I'm sure there were debates about where He'd be from. Some believed Nazareth, others Egypt, still others Bethlehem. All three are true, now that we have the narrative. In time, it'll all be sorted out, but we try and fill in the gaps left on purpose by the Author.
 
Abdicate said:
Movies didn't invent flashbacks and parenthetical comments. Chronology isn't spelled out. Keep in mind, chapter and verse numbers came centuries after the text was written. You must take ALL verses into account in order to come to any conclusion. Just saying.
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Would you at least concede that the 6th seal precedes the 7th seal?

I am by no means setting dates - simply saying "It sure looks like we are here and that means this is next"...

If you are carefully watching for the Two Witnesses and the timeline associated with them - that would assume the 7th seal is already past and we are WAY farther along than anybody is prepared for.....
 
JohnC said:
Would you at least concede that the 6th seal precedes the 7th seal?

I am by no means setting dates - simply saying "It sure looks like we are here and that means this is next"...

If you are carefully watching for the Two Witnesses and the timeline associated with them - that would assume the 7th seal is already past and we are WAY farther along than anybody is prepared for.....
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I'll tell you what, I'll accept seal 6 comes before 7, if you can tell me when seal 4 happened. In all the 20th century it's estimated that only 123 million people died unnaturally - meaning by war, famine, and pestilence. Seal 4 (Rev 6:8) says 25% (one fourth) of the world would die, that's 1.75 Billion people. So if 4 hasn't happened yet, then 5 and 6 haven't happened either.

So let's say you're correct, then seals 1-4 happened in the 20th century, and we can count the Middle East cleansing of Christians and loss of rights for Christians today in the West as the 5th seal, it's clear that the 6th seal hasn't happened yet. And I suppose that's your point. So let's look at what's to happen with the 6th seal:

Revelation 6:12-17 (KJV)
And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?​

#1 - a great earthquake
#2 - sun became black
#3 - moon became as blood
#4 - stars fall from heaven like a fig tree with a mighty wind
#5 - heaven departed as a scroll
#6 - Every mountain and island moved
#7 - Everyone wants to hide in shelters and in the earth (because they see Jesus on His throne)

Let's take a logical approach to #1 and 2 for a moment. If the sun is black, one could assume then that because of the earthquake, a volcano or just dirt is blocking its rays. However, if that is true, you wouldn't be able to see the moon let alone determine that it's red. So that can't be the cause of the sun going dark. Well, then something else is going on. (Now you know where the theories of "Nibiru" comes from.)

Just because some people are building shelters, doesn't mean everyone is, which is what the word of God says. So, I guess we'll wait until the big one - Yellowstone?
 
Abdicate my friend....

I totally accept many of the prophets writings not being arranged in chronological order.... Isaiah, Ezekiel, and Jeremiah are good examples.... Each of those covered 50+/- years of prophetic ministry..... Each of them wrote many many documents (perhaps hundreds of individual prophecies and messages) which were later collected and arranged into their respective scrolls.... Ezekiel is particularly obvious - it has preceding chapters which occur 10+ years after the following chapter..... But we don't really know (now) how the prophecies were originally given so we could unwind them... Perhaps within 1 individual specific message there was likely an order and chronology....... Hard to tell now though

And I get that the way prophecies work with multiple fulfillments make it more difficult to pin down...

But other books aren't arranged this way as much.... You would yell at me through your computer screen if I proposed that the 70th week of Daniel actually came between the 62 weeks and 7 weeks...

The thing that helps me justify arranging the seals, woes, and vials in the order they are listed is that they follow a list, are numbered, and follow a logical progression.... We are also reasonably confident that John wrote The Revelation in basically 1 go while imprisoned on Patmos.. The best evidence we have is that it was not a piecemeal arrangement of many different individual visions and prophecies given over many years....

Your question on the 4th seal - the price of wheat and barley.... I can make an interesting case based on my research of grain prices that Wheat and Barley prices passing the listed threshold values seem to coincide with King Ferdinand of Spain's casting out the Jews in 1492... Which lead to the "Discovery" of the New World... But the specific date the prices crossed the threshold for the purpose of the prophecy - nope....

In terms of certainty - as of 1450 you find records of grain prices dipping down below and by 1550 grain prices were sufficiently above the threshold levels across Europe and the Middle East and have never went below it to the present day.

But wouldn't that be a delicious irony... To be able to show conclusively that the grain prices exceeded the threshold levels for the purpose of the prophecy on July 31, 1492.... My optics just aren't that good for pinning down a grain price event which appears to have happened 500 (ish) years ago..

Perhaps someone living in spain might have a way to investigate something like that in further detail. ;) ;).
 
I see prophecy like this: if God says it'll happen it will, without an elaborate study over multiple generations to discover it. Prophecy is about timely events that allow those who don't believe and witnessing them to ask questions. The end-time prophecies are for a single generation. So I can't agree with you on anything you've presented so far. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. Have a nice day.
 
I dont know if the church is denying anything going on in the world today its just the focus is on saving souls rather than doom and gloom, because the expected end for believers is glorious even though there are many trials and tribulations to be faced.

As pertaining to global warming, we do our best to redeem the time we have now, and who knows in Gods scheme of things, what actions we take now will count for the Kingdom.
 
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