Calvinism

[KingJ]

JACK: Depends what you mean by "free will." My cat is free to act like a cat. He can pur whenever he wishes, dig in his litter box when he chooses, but he is not free to act like a dog. He can't bark or chase cars. We are born spiritually dead (Eph. 2:1) spiritually blind (2 Cor. 4:3-4) and spirituall deaf (John 8:43, 47). Do we have "free will" to accept Christ? You may be interested to know that the term "free will" nowhere appears in the Bible. When God saves us, we become "new creatures" in Christ with a new will and a new nature. We are not free to act like a child of God.

Sure we were spiritually dead in sins, but Jesus died for all mankind. The opportunity to be spiritually alive is extended to every human. WE accept or reject it.

Romans 10:11
11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed

Please read my post #16 on free will.

JACK: I would be very cautious about using Wikipedia for anything especially theology. Our Theology should come from the Word of God.

But Calvin is not in the word of God?

JACK: Jesus said to them, "You did not choose me, I chose you..." (Jn. 15:16).

The disciples had no choice in the matter? They could not reject? Jesus forced them? Need to use some logic! It is rather obvious that Jesus would make an educated decision in choosing disciples, men that would be more inclined to accept His offer, this DOES NOT mean they had no free will to still reject….

JACK: Nope, He sure didn't! That's why it is called hell.

1 John 2:2
2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

If Jesus died for all mankind, God is fair and yet people go to hell….the logical deduction is….they rejected Jesus from free will….

JACK: Notice in Mark 10:45 and Matthew 20:28 that the word is "many" not "all." The word "many" is a translation of the Greek term POLLOS meaning a large group but never used for all inclusive humanity. If God knew from eternity past who would accept Him and who would not, why would it be necessary for Christ to pay the penalty for unbelievers? Besides, if He did, wouldn't that mean that God extracted the penalty for sins twice: once on his Son and again on the sinner and is that fair?

1 Tim 2:4
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

It is God's hope that ALL men accept salvation. Jesus would have died even if only ONE person repented.

JACK: Take note of John 1:12-13. "But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even those who believe in His name, who were born [again] not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God." After reading these two verses, whose "will" saved us?

Ours. The very opening says it clearly ''But as many as received Him''. We accept Jesus and are then grafted into the vine. We humble our hearts to the working of the Holy Spirit to produce Godly repentance. We reject and grieve the Holy Spirit.

JACK: There was a time in my life when I believed what you just wrote and I believed it with a passion. When I first heard a Calvinistic sermon I rejected it and mocked it. I thought no one in their right minds would believe such utter nonsense and I set out on a year long Bible study to disprove it. My Bible study resulted in something quite unexpected. Here I am forty-five years later a committed theologian to the Doctrines of Sovereign Grace teaching in a seminary.

If you were saved when you outright rejected it, don't you think that was the Holy Spirit talking to you? Even baby Christians full of the Spirit know tripe when they hear it. It sounds to me like you have allowed yourself to be brain-washed.

JACK: If God treated us all "fairly" we would all be suffering in hell right now. All have sinned and come short of the glory of God and He would be perfectly justified and fair to place us all there without exception. To think that God isn't fair is ridiciulous. Do you really want Him to treat you "fairly"? Grace is treating us unfairly and praise Him for his Grace.

So God is unfair on us and fair on those going to hell? That clearly makes God a respecter of persons, unjust and unfair.

KINGJ: God in all His power CHOOSES to NOT KNOW the destiny of every baby human He creates. If He did, then He is guilty of not giving all free will and being a respecter of persons…..it is just that simple… JACK: If this is so simple, where in the scripture does it say this?

Scripture that says God is good, fair, just and no respecter of persons. It is a logical answer with the given facts. I may be a few degrees out but Calvinism is going in the opposite direction.

 

[KingJ]

Quoting all those scriptures tells me you are not up for a rational discussion and dodging my questions . I am game for analyzing any one of those scriptures. Please give your thoughts on post # 17, this question was ignored? / lost in your 'do babies go to heaven' thread.

On the contrary, Calvinism affirms the scriptures that God's election is unconditional so that NONE may boast.

Lets say you think you are one of the elected but aren't and go to hell….would you hate Calvinism?

God's election is not being a respecter of persons, because the election itself is not conditional. There is absolutely no way God can "prefer" one over the other, therefore he is not respecting anybody because each man's status is the same. Spiritually dead.

How is it not conditional? He does prefer those He takes to heaven…does He not?

 

[calvin]

kingj posted :

But Calvin is not in the word of God?

I am you know, I should tell you about it sometime
Ohh, you mean the other Calvin

 

[Jack Williamson]

Sure we were spiritually dead in sins, but Jesus died for all mankind. The opportunity to be spiritually alive is extended to every human. WE accept or reject it.

JACK: If we are "dead" how can we choose or not choose Christ?
If he died for all mankind why isn't all mankind saved? Did He even die for the sin of rejecting Him?

Romans 10:11
11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed

JACK: AMEN!

Please read my post #16 on free will.

But Calvin is not in the word of God?The disciples had no choice in the matter? They could not reject? Jesus forced them? Need to use some logic! It is rather obvious that Jesus would make an educated decision in choosing disciples, men that would be more inclined to accept His offer, this DOES NOT mean they had no free will to still reject….
1 John 2:2
2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

JACK: No one says Calvin is the Word of God. No one said Jesus forced anyone that is a misrepresentation of what Calvin taught and what the Bible teaches. John 1:13 says we are not saved by the will of man. If He "IS" the propitiation for the sins of the whole world, word means "satisfaction," then all the world would be saved because every sin has been satisfied and neither you nor I believe that. The word "world" is actually KOSMOS where the English word "cosmetics" comes from and means an orderly arrangment. It is sometimes used for groups of people. Jesus said, "The world will hate you...." Did He mean every single person who will ever live? Of course not. We use the word in much the same idiom. We say, "The world of the rich and famous." I think John was talking about the "world of the believer." It doesn't say, "He might be the propitiation..." but He is IS the propitituation.

If Jesus died for all mankind, God is fair and yet people go to hell….the logical deduction is….they rejected Jesus from free will….

JACK: Where does the phrase "free will" appear in the Scripture?

1 Tim 2:4
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

JACK: If God wants "all men" to be saved, all men would be saved. The word is actually PANTA meaning "all kinds" of men. The very context is talking about kings and those who are in authority.

It is God's hope that ALL men accept salvation. Jesus would have died even if only ONE person repented.
Ours. The very opening says it clearly ''But as many as received Him''. We accept Jesus and are then grafted into the vine. We humble our hearts to the working of the Holy Spirit to produce Godly repentance. We reject and grieve the Holy Spirit.If you were saved when you outright rejected it, don't you think that was the Holy Spirit talking to you? Even baby Christians full of the Spirit know tripe when they hear it. It sounds to me like you have allowed yourself to be brain-washed.So God is unfair on us and fair on those going to hell? That clearly makes God a respecter of persons, unjust and unfair. Scripture that says God is good, fair, just and no respecter of persons. It is a logical answer with the given facts. I may be a few degrees out but Calvinism is going in the opposite direction.

JACK: If God were "fair" you and I would be burning in hell at this very moment. Let's hope God is never fair. In my opinion, you have a very distorted and terribly wrong idea of the whole idea of Calvinism.

 

[Aenon]

Quoting all those scriptures tells me you are not up for a rational discussion and dodging my questions .

I posted the scriptures to show how much of the Bible is behind the five points of Calvinism.

Lets say you think you are one of the elected but aren't and go to hell….would you hate Calvinism? How is it not conditional?

If I think I am one of the elect but I'm not, that means I am not saved. If I am not saved, I hate God in my heart. Why would Calvinism matter?

He does prefer those He takes to heaven…does He not?

Are you seriously asking if God prefers the saved over the unsaved? Do you prefer your children over the rapist in prison? Of course God loves His own children differently than the world. Once they are His blood bought adopted children, however. Before the foundations of the world when God elected people, however, we were ALL that rapist in prison until God regenerated our hearts and made us new creatures.

 

[calvin]

It seems to me that any able building inspector would condemn any structure that relies on sound foundations when one is found to be unsound. Thus it must be so with calvanism. If any one of the supporting arguments is faulty, the whole is unsound and subject to demolition.
Some verses to consider that do not require any exegetic gymnastics to apply. All relating to so called election.
Ezekiel 18:23. a Rhetorical question.
Ezekiel 18:32.
Matthew 11:28.
Mark 8:34. Luke 9:23.
Luke 9:23. τίς....an indefinite pronoun. any, anyone, anybody etc.
John 7:37. τίς....an indefinite pronoun. any, anyone, anybody etc.
Revelation 3:20. τίς....an indefinite pronoun. any, anyone, anybody etc.
Revelation 22:17.
Revelation 22:18,19. Take great care!
Matthew 18:12,13. Luke 15:4,7.
It is said that everything should be established on the testimony of two or three witnesses....
There is no exclusive election of any sort taught by the Word of God.
Not one of these verses can be interpreted in such a way that election of individuals can be inferred.
If any one of the foundations of John C's hypothesis will not stand up under the scrutiny of Scripture, then the whole hypothesis must be listed for demolition.

 

[Jack Williamson]

It seems to me that any able building inspector would condemn any structure that relies on sound foundations when one is found to be unsound. Thus it must be so with calvanism. If any one of the supporting arguments is faulty, the whole is unsound and subject to demolition.
Some verses to consider that do not require any exegetic gymnastics to apply. All relating to so called election.
Ezekiel 18:23. a Rhetorical question.
Ezekiel 18:32.
Matthew 11:28.
Mark 8:34. Luke 9:23.
Luke 9:23. τίς....an indefinite pronoun. any, anyone, anybody etc.
John 7:37. τίς....an indefinite pronoun. any, anyone, anybody etc.
Revelation 3:20. τίς....an indefinite pronoun. any, anyone, anybody etc.
Revelation 22:17.
Revelation 22:18,19. Take great care!
Matthew 18:12,13. Luke 15:4,7.
It is said that everything should be established on the testimony of two or three witnesses....
There is no exclusive election of any sort taught by the Word of God.

JACK: Not only do these verses not argue against Calvinism, but I have used some of them to affirm my biblical stance. You say there is no exclusive election of any sort taught by the Word God. Of course, Israel is an election nation and the reason it is a privileged nation is never revealed in Scripture. It certainly wasn't because they a righteous nation. Acts 13:48 and 2 Thess. 2:13 certainly teach an exclusiveness of election without question.

Not one of these verses can be interpreted in such a way that election of individuals can be inferred.
If any one of the foundations of John C's hypothesis will not stand up under the scrutiny of Scripture, then the whole hypothesis must be listed for demolition.

 

[calvin]

JACK: Not only do these verses not argue against Calvinism, but I have used some of them to affirm my biblical stance. You say there is no exclusive election of any sort taught by the Word God. Of course, Israel is an election nation and the reason it is a privileged nation is never revealed in Scripture. It certainly wasn't because they a righteous nation. Acts 13:48 and 2 Thess 2:13 certainly teach an exclusiveness of election without question.

Rom 9:3,4,5,6,7,8. Israel was chosen out merely to be the 'royal cup bearer' nation (my words) as Paul labored valiantly to teach the Romans. Israel was made to stand apart from the other nations so that there would be a people of God distinguished from the others as an example to learn from. But that is a bit too indepth for this thread.
Anyways as I said there is more than ample scripture that speaks against the sort of election taught by John C.
I'm not going to stay in this thread arguing about a non issue, I just popped in to point out that the whole edifice crumbles when just one foundation is faulty.
finis

 

[Major]

Just a quick, general note.

There were always questions when this subject was brought up in the past.

Please keep your posts civil and back all claims with appropriate Scripture.

You are so right............this should be interesting! (For a while).

 

[Major]

Rom 9:3,4,5,6,7,8. Israel was chosen out merely to be the 'royal cup bearer' nation (my words) as Paul labored valiantly to teach the Romans. Israel was made to stand apart from the other nations so that there would be a people of God distinguished from the others as an example to learn from. But that is a bit too indepth for this thread.
Anyways as I said there is more than ample scripture that speaks against the sort of election taught by John C.
I'm not going to stay in this thread arguing about a non issue, I just popped in to point out that the whole edifice crumbles when just one foundation is faulty.
finis

Absolutly my friend!

If the foundation is not solid, the building will fall!

Ephesians 1:4-5..........
"According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will".

Israel gives us the example of God's choosing.

Amos 3:1-2..........
" Hear this word that the Lord hath spoken against you, O children of Israel, against the whole family which I brought up from the land of Egypt, saying,
2 You only have I known of all the families of the earth: therefore I will punish you for all your iniquities."

God chose Israel in time....He chose the Church in eternity!

Since God made the choice in eternity there has not arisen anything unforseen to Him which has caused Him to change His program or His mind. He knew the end from the beginning (Acts 15:18).

Election is God's choosing us in Christ. Men are NOT LOST because they have not been elected!!!!

Men are lost BECAUSE THEY ARE SINNERS and that is the way they want it and that is the way they have chosen.

The FREE WILL of man is never violated because of the election of God. The lost man makes his own choice.

Augustine said it like this............
"If there be not free will grace in God, how then can He save the whole world? And if there be not free will in man, how can the world by God be judged"?

Romans 9:14..........
"What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? GOD FORBID".

 

[KingJ]

Are you seriously asking if God prefers the saved over the unsaved? Do you prefer your children over the rapist in prison? Of course God loves His own children differently than the world. Once they are His blood bought adopted children, however. Before the foundations of the world when God elected people, however, we were ALL that rapist in prison until God regenerated our hearts and made us new creatures.

I am showing you why Calvinism logic is flawed. If God shows preference to anyone by ''treating them unfairly'' regenerating their hearts with or without their consent, He is surely showing preference...

As saved Christians we have new hearts, but it was our choice to accept and humble our hearts to the convicting of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit could try all day and get nowhere if we hardened our hearts. Grieving the Holy Spirit is people exercising their free will to reject Jesus. We can only grieve the Holy Spirit if the Holy Spirit is in fact trying.... Psalms 51:17, Romans 2:5, Ephesians 4:30.

 

[KingJ]

JACK: If we are "dead" how can we choose or not choose Christ?
If he died for all mankind why isn't all mankind saved? Did He even die for the sin of rejecting Him?

Dead, as in dead in sin and doomed for hell. Well that's easy, God comes to us. All of God's creation speaks of Him…in this doomed world of sin where we are dead. Life / God is there for everyone to see and take (Romans 1:20).

Would you say babies dead in sin are doomed for hell?

JACK: Where does the phrase "free will" appear in the Scripture?

Post # 16

JACK: If God wants "all men" to be saved, all men would be saved. The word is actually PANTA meaning "all kinds" of men. The very context is talking about kings and those who are in authority.

'All kinds'? Like God wants a mix of cultures in heaven?

JACK: If God were "fair" you and I would be burning in hell at this very moment. Let's hope God is never fair.

and treats us unfairly....How can you not see the tremendous flaw in that logic?

 

[Aenon]

I am showing you why Calvinism logic is flawed. If God shows preference to anyone by ''treating them unfairly'' regenerating their hearts with or without their consent, He is surely showing preference...

As saved Christians we have new hearts, but it was our choice to accept and humble our hearts to the convicting of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit could try all day and get nowhere if we hardened our hearts. Grieving the Holy Spirit is people exercising their free will to reject Jesus. We can only grieve the Holy Spirit if the Holy Spirit is in fact trying.... Psalms 51:17, Romans 2:5, Ephesians 4:30.

It is ironic that you're suggesting the logic is flawed. The reason why it is ironic is because the very same arguments you are bringing forth against Calvinism can be used against your own Arminian view. For example, have you ever once in your life prayed to God that He would "Soften" someone's heart and bring Salvation to them? Uh oh, that means you are praying for God to "regenerate their hearts with or without their consent" and therefore showing preference.

There are only two ways to take it. You either believe Salvation is of the LORD, or Salvation is a choice of man. It can't be both, and it can't be neither. You either had nothing to do with your Salvation and it is by grace alone, or you are the one that chose Jesus (contrary to John 15:16) and therefore you yourself are the reason you're saved. Everyone else (with your view) is not smart or humble enough to choose Jesus. You were, so you're in the family. That is conditional salvation.

If you take a step back and look at the difference between the two views, you will see that the Arminian view is incredibly man-centered. The view is saying salvation came because I believe, election because God saw I would choose, atonement because I accepted, or perseverance if I continue. Salvation is of the Lord, not of will of man (John 1:13).

 

[Major]

I am showing you why Calvinism logic is flawed. If God shows preference to anyone by ''treating them unfairly'' regenerating their hearts with or without their consent, He is surely showing preference...

As saved Christians we have new hearts, but it was our choice to accept and humble our hearts to the convicting of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit could try all day and get nowhere if we hardened our hearts. Grieving the Holy Spirit is people exercising their free will to reject Jesus. We can only grieve the Holy Spirit if the Holy Spirit is in fact trying.... Psalms 51:17, Romans 2:5, Ephesians 4:30.

Correct and to prove that Paul said in Romans 2:11...........
"for there is no respect of persons with God".

God can judge on the basis of impartiality.

 

[Ryan Lepko]

God can soften our hearts:
Acts 16:14
One of those listening was a woman from the city of Thyatira named Lydia, a dealer in purple cloth. She was a worshiper of God. The Lord opened her heart to respond to Paul’s message.

God can also harden hearts:
Exodus 4:21
The LORD said to Moses, “When you return to Egypt, see that you perform before Pharaoh all the wonders I have given you the power to do. But I will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go.

But we can also harden our own hearts:
Exodus 9:34
When Pharaoh saw that the rain and hail and thunder had stopped, he sinned again: He and his officials hardened their hearts.

We can also soften our own hearts:
2 Corinthians 6:13
As a fair exchange—I speak as to my children—open wide your hearts also.

Those are just 4 examples of how God, the Ruler of the Universe can work HIS sovereign plan amongst us. Are there more ways? I would say absolutely, positively. He is all powerful, all knowing, the Creator of the Universe, our King, our Redeemer, the Beginning and the End. I am just saying God works on an entirely different level then we will ever completely grasp in this lifetime, and in the end, God’s will is beyond perfect. In the end, I believe that we still have to jump through the hoop ourselves. We can all lead a horse to water, they just have to drink it.

Psalms 32:5 When I acknowledged my sin to you, when I stopped concealing my guilt, and said, "I will
confess my offenses to Adonai"; then you, you forgave the guilt of my sin.

1John 1:8-10 If we claim not to have sin, we are deceiving ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we
acknowledge our sins, then, since he is trustworthy and just, he will forgive them and purify us from all
wrongdoing. If we claim we have not been sinning, we are making him out to be a liar, and his Word is not in us.

 

[Major]

I posted the scriptures to show how much of the Bible is behind the five points of Calvinism.



If I think I am one of the elect but I'm not, that means I am not saved. If I am not saved, I hate God in my heart. Why would Calvinism matter?



Are you seriously asking if God prefers the saved over the unsaved? Do you prefer your children over the rapist in prison? Of course God loves His own children differently than the world. Once they are His blood bought adopted children, however. Before the foundations of the world when God elected people, however, we were ALL that rapist in prison until God regenerated our hearts and made us new creatures.

Aenon....Election only pertains to the saved not the lost. Those who are called according to His purpose are predestinated to be conformed to the image of His Son.

You are one of the elect if you hear His voice. You also have free will not to hear His voice.

D.L. Moody put it this way............."The whosoeverwills are the elect and the whosoeverwonts are the noneelect."

 

[Jack Williamson]

JACK: If we are "dead" how can we choose or not choose Christ?
If he died for all mankind why isn't all mankind saved? Did He even die for the sin of rejecting Him?​

KINGJ: Dead, as in dead in sin and doomed for hell. Well that's easy, God comes to us. All of God's creation speaks of Him…in this doomed world of sin where we are dead. Life / God is there for everyone to see and take (Romans 1:20). ​

JACK: So, how can a person "dead in trespasses and sin" "choose" Christ?

KINGJ: Would you say babies dead in sin are doomed for hell?

JACK: I would say that Ps. 51:5; 58:3 tells us that they are sinners. Yet I Kings 14:11-14 tells us they can be saved. ​

JACK: Where does the phrase "free will" appear in the Scripture?​

KINGJ: Post # 16​

JACK: The words "free will" are not there. Nor are they anywhere in God's word.

JACK: If God wants "all men" to be saved, all men would be saved. The word is actually PANTA meaning "all kinds" of men. The very context is talking about kings and those who are in authority.​

KINGJ: 'All kinds'? Like God wants a mix of cultures in heaven?

JACK: I don't know what that is suppose to mean, but the Scripture says He saves all kinds of people, rich, poor, black, white, male, female.

JACK: If God were "fair" you and I would be burning in hell at this very moment. Let's hope God is never fair.​

KINGJ: and treats us unfairly....How can you not see the tremendous flaw in that logic?

JACK: In your logic, of course. If all have sinned and come short of the glory of God, He could send us all to hell and be perfectly justified in doing so. Praise the Lord that the grace of God does not follow human justice or even human logic for that matter.​

 

[Aenon]

Aenon....Election only pertains to the saved not the lost. Those who are called according to His purpose are predestinated to be conformed to the image of His Son.

No...Christ came to seek and save the LOST. We were ALL lost until God saved some of us. What do you think "saved" means? It means we were once like everyone else, but now we're not. Election pertains to the LOST that God has chosen to adopt.

 

[salmon]

who needs free will when we have choice?
Joshua 24:15.

 

[Jack Williamson]

No...Christ came to seek and save the LOST. We were ALL lost until God saved some of us. What do you think "saved" means? It means we were once like everyone else, but now we're not. Election pertains to the LOST that God has chosen to adopt.

The Angel said in Matthew 1:21, "Thou shall call his name Jesus for He shall save his people from their sins." That's exactly what He did; He saved HIS PEOPLE from their sins. We do not worship a failure. He didn't "try his best" to save everyone. He didn't "put forth a good effort." He came for the purpose of saving his people and He will accomplish that aim. Take note of the word "many" in Mk. 10:45 and Matt. 20:28. It is not the word "all," but the word "many." Pay attention to the phrase in Acts 20:28, "...to feed the CHURCH OF GOD which he purchased with his own blood."