Can someone choose good without God?

Johnlove said:
I was wondering if you can give us scripture to confirm your statement: “God still uses ALL things for His Glory-in His time.“

I just don’t see God using sin for his anything.

(Romans 8:28) “We are well aware that God works with those who love him, those who have been called in accordance with his purpose, and turns everything to their good.”

(John 14: 23) “Anyone who loves me will keep my word and my Father will love him, and we shall come to him and make a home in him.”
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I Said" Only if you deny the source: deny the Holy Spirit and say 'look what I did' for such and such cause..

Which happens all the time. God still uses ALL things for His Glory-in His time.

God will use the sin of one to benefit the other, example: unsaved parents have a a child, the child gets saved and does a work for the LORD. Out of the parents sin, God can make use of that soil...."

Which was probably not the best way to word things and yes saying that "God uses sin" does not sound all that Biblical to me either-for that let me apologize. God will not 'tempt us into sin' but will allow us to be tempted. (We in turn choose to sin or not-God always leaves us an out if we will take it).

Let me further clarify the statement I made earlier by saying this: God will allow us to sin and suffer the consequences. In that suffering; if the heart becomes repentant (whether it be the first or fourth generation); God will lead that soul to salvation and overcoming of said sin. I am trying to make this statement as universal as possible because we could do the 'what if' game on this for eternity and it will make no difference.

The point I was trying to make is that people generally do 'good' for their own benefit and disregard the Owner of that Good. But God can make 'good' come out of any mess that we create if He so chooses. Else their wouldn't be anyone 'saved from sin'. Does that sound better?

As for the OP: James 1:17; Matthew 19:17/Mark 10:18; Luke 6:27-36; John 9:1-7
 
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Brother_Mike_V said:
I Said" Only if you deny the source: deny the Holy Spirit and say 'look what I did' for such and such cause..

Which happens all the time. God still uses ALL things for His Glory-in His time.

God will use the sin of one to benefit the other, example: unsaved parents have a a child, the child gets saved and does a work for the LORD. Out of the parents sin, God can make use of that soil...."

Which was probably not the best way to word things and yes saying that "God uses sin" does not sound all that Biblical to me either-for that let me apologize. God will not 'tempt us into sin' but will allow us to be tempted. (We in turn choose to sin or not-God always leaves us an out if we will take it).

Let me further clarify the statement I made earlier by saying this: God will allow us to sin and suffer the consequences. In that suffering; if the heart becomes repentant (whether it be the first or fourth generation); God will lead that soul to salvation and overcoming of said sin. I am trying to make this statement as universal as possible because we could do the 'what if' game on this for eternity and it will make no difference.

The point I was trying to make is that people generally do 'good' for their own benefit and disregard the Owner of that Good. But God can make 'good' come out of any mess that we create if He so chooses. Else their wouldn't be anyone 'saved from sin'. Does that sound better?

As for the OP: James 1:17; Matthew 19:17/Mark 10:18; Luke 6:27-36; John 9:1-7
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Thank you I understand what you are saying.

Just to give you another understanding of sin and doing good works, I would like to share some of what I believe.

To live God’s Word one has to have the grace, and direction from the Holy Spirit.

Paul explained that in Romans seven. Paul in Romans eight explained how God made it possible for one to not sin.

(Romans 8: 4) “He did this in order that the law’s just demands might be satisfied in us, who behave not as our unspiritual nature but as the Spirit dictates.”

Because God made it possible for us to not sin, then for one who has been given the knowledge of the truth and deliberately disobeys God there is no repentance.



(Hebrews 10:26-31) “If, after we have been given knowledge of the truth, we should deliberately commit any sins, then there is no longer any sacrifice for them. There is left only the dreadful prospect of judgment and of the fiery wrath that is to devour your enemies--------“

I also believe what John said in the following scripture.

(1 John 3:5-6) “Now you know that he appeared in order to abolish sin, and that in him there is no sin; anyone who lives in God does not sin, and anyone who sins has never seen him or known him.
 
@ JohnLove

So you believe that 'sinless perfection' shows those whom are 'truly saved' and unless we have sinless perfection after salvation we are still condemned to Hell?
 
Brother_Mike_V said:
@ JohnLove

So you believe that 'sinless perfection' shows those whom are 'truly saved' and unless we have sinless perfection after salvation we are still condemned to Hell?
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No that is not what I believe.

I believe that those who don’t live God’s Word, and that means they sin, will be judged by God’s Word.

(John 12:47-48) “If anyone hears my words and does not keep them faithfully, it is not I who shall condemn him, since I have come not to condemn the world, but to save the world: he who rejects me and refuses my words has his judge already: the word itself that I have spoken will be his judge on the last day.”
Jesus made it possible for his people to defeat Satan/sin. I know this to be true, and it has hurt me that very few people can’t understand that truth.

Scripture tells us that is true, but most people seem to ignore the Scripture that tells us that.

(1 John 3:8) “He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil's work”

I believe Jesus did what he came here to do, and all people need to do is accept the Holy Spirit’s direction.

(Romans 8: 4) “He did this in order that the law’s just demands might be satisfied in us, who behave not as our unspiritual nature but as the Spirit dictates.”
 
Godspell said:
You didn't address the question though. I was not asking if it is possible for someone to be impeccable without God, I asked if they could do something good without God.
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Can atheist do a good deed, like work at a homeless shelter yes. But it is not without God because God gives us life and the ability to do these good things. Throughout the Old testament we see God using people with obvious faults like Rahab the prostitute to bless people.
 
chapmic said:
Can atheist do a good deed, like work at a homeless shelter yes. But it is not without God because God gives us life and the ability to do these good things. Throughout the Old testament we see God using people with obvious faults like Rahab the prostitute to bless people.
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I think so to. In fact, I think by definition good works come from the grace of God, and I think that says something also about the people who do them.
 
Godspell said:
I think so to. In fact, I think by definition good works come from the grace of God, and I think that says something also about the people who do them.
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Don't confuse Humanism or Moralism or Asceticism with doing God's will.

All of the first 3 are based on self will... These people are relying on the strength of their self will.... Reasoning out the best moral or most "Selfless" course of life....

Think about this for a minute...
This is the God who created the entire earth... The God who created every animal and plant.... The God who holds the entire creation in His hands... He restored MAIMED people to wholeness.... Raised people who were dead long enough to be rotting and stinking... They asked for tax money - so He had Peter catch a fish and the fish had the money in it's mouth - Jesus didn't need Man's help to raise money....

He doesn't need your HELP to accomplish good works....
 
JohnC said:
Don't confuse Humanism or Moralism or Asceticism with doing God's will.

All of the first 3 are based on self will... These people are relying on the strength of their self will.... Reasoning out the best moral or most "Selfless" course of life....

Think about this for a minute...
This is the God who created the entire earth... The God who created every animal and plant.... The God who holds the entire creation in His hands... He restored MAIMED people to wholeness.... Raised people who were dead long enough to be rotting and stinking... They asked for tax money - so He had Peter catch a fish and the fish had the money in it's mouth - Jesus didn't need Man's help to raise money....

He doesn't need your HELP to accomplish good works....
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Yet here we are.

Your philosophy is highly unorthodox and highly pretentious.
 
Brother_Mike_V said:
If obedience to law is required for salvation: we are ALL too late for that...might as well eat drink and be merry while we can....
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Obedience is required to enter the kingdom of heaven. Obedience may not be required for salvation.

Being saved does not necessarily mean one will go to heaven. There is no scripture that says saved means entering God’s kingdom.

But there is much scripture that says one who sins will not go to heaven.

Jesus told us very plainly what it takes to enter the kingdom of Heaven.

(Matthew 7:21-23) “It is not those who say to me, ‘Lord, Lord’, who will enter the kingdom of Heaven but the person who does the will of My Father in Heaven. When the day comes many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, cast out demons in your name, work many miracles in your name?’ Then I shall tell them to their faces: I have never known you; away from me, you evil men!”


(1 Corinthians 6:9-19) “You know perfectly well that people who do wrong will not inherit the Kingdom of God: people of immoral lives, idolaters, adulterers, catamites, sodomites, thieves, usurers, drunkards, slanders and swindlers will never inherit the kingdom of God.”

Notice Paul said people who do wrong. Not living God’s commandments/Word is doing wrong. These people he said will never inherit the kingdom of God.
 
Godspell said:
Yet here we are.

Your philosophy is highly unorthodox and highly pretentious.
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NO, it's actually completely "Orthodox" - when you define "Orthodox" as "Orthodox Christian"....
and it's completely consistent with the entire bible - cover to cover.

You are trying to back into a position that a person is "Godly" because they are Moral or practice "good behavior"....
That is simply false.
Isaiah 64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteous acts are as filthy rags......
Romans 10:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves to the righteousness of God.

By pretentious - you appear to mean "Exclusive".... and that is also a tenet of Orthodox Christianity - that there is NO other way to God than through Jesus....
If you can back into Godliness without Jesus - then the Cross was completely unnecessary, and Jesus died in vain.... Literally - for nothing.

Thanks
 
Johnlove said:
Obedience is required to enter the kingdom of heaven. Obedience may not be required for salvation.

Being saved does not necessarily mean one will go to heaven. There is no scripture that says saved means entering God’s kingdom.
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Would you mind further expounding? I am confused: if we are saved-but not going to Heaven; why bother with 'salvation' if there is no reason to be saved 'to' something? Are you offering eternal limbo for these souls? Purgatory perhaps? Destruction of the 'saved' sinful soul so it will not suffer eternity? Are you telling me that the multitudes (unable to be counted) in Heaven were 100% pure upon their salvation? Are we talking about the same planet and human race that we are living in?
 
Brother_Mike_V said:
Would you mind further expounding? I am confused: if we are saved-but not going to Heaven; why bother with 'salvation' if there is no reason to be saved 'to' something? Are you offering eternal limbo for these souls? Purgatory perhaps? Destruction of the 'saved' sinful soul so it will not suffer eternity? Are you telling me that the multitudes (unable to be counted) in Heaven were 100% pure upon their salvation? Are we talking about the same planet and human race that we are living in?
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Scripture tells us that if one believes in Jesus they will be saved. Scripture does not say what one will be save from, or to what.

Scripture says one who does not live the Word of God will not enter the kingdom of Heaven.

So Scripture, the written Word of God, does not tell us everything.

Most of what I believe the Christian Church has taught about being saved is just assumptions. Man likes the churches assumption, because it means one can live in the world, and be a Christian also.

I believe we were given the Holy Spirit to teach us everything.

I can share what the Holy Spirit has taught me, but no one wants to believe me. And no one should believe me, people should only believe Jesus/Holy Spirit.

(1 John 2: 27) “But you have not lost the anointing that he gave you, and you do not need anyone to teach you; the anointing he gave teaches you everything: you are anointed with truth, not with a lie, and as it has taught you, so you must stay in him.”


Christian should be sharing what the Holy Spirit is teaching him or her, and then others can go to God and see if what is being taught to someone else is also something for you at that time.

Sharing what man has taught others is not the truth.
 
JohnC said:
NO, it's actually completely "Orthodox" - when you define "Orthodox" as "Orthodox Christian"....
and it's completely consistent with the entire bible - cover to cover.

You are trying to back into a position that a person is "Godly" because they are Moral or practice "good behavior"....
That is simply false.
Isaiah 64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteous acts are as filthy rags......
Romans 10:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves to the righteousness of God.

By pretentious - you appear to mean "Exclusive".... and that is also a tenet of Orthodox Christianity - that there is NO other way to God than through Jesus....
If you can back into Godliness without Jesus - then the Cross was completely unnecessary, and Jesus died in vain.... Literally - for nothing.

Thanks
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Your position is that our presence on Earth and our physical life is meaningless. This is a position that comes from gnosticism. And has never been part of the orthodox faith.

In fact The Lord Himself told us by way of the good summaritian, that He surely does need our help because if we don't no one will.

Exclusivity is a different subject entirely and not what I was addressing.
 
Johnlove said:
Scripture tells us that if one believes in Jesus they will be saved. Scripture does not say what one will be save from, or to what.

Scripture says one who does not live the Word of God will not enter the kingdom of Heaven.

So Scripture, the written Word of God, does not tell us everything.

Most of what I believe the Christian Church has taught about being saved is just assumptions. Man likes the churches assumption, because it means one can live in the world, and be a Christian also.

I believe we were given the Holy Spirit to teach us everything.

I can share what the Holy Spirit has taught me, but no one wants to believe me. And no one should believe me, people should only believe Jesus/Holy Spirit.

(1 John 2: 27) “But you have not lost the anointing that he gave you, and you do not need anyone to teach you; the anointing he gave teaches you everything: you are anointed with truth, not with a lie, and as it has taught you, so you must stay in him.”


Christian should be sharing what the Holy Spirit is teaching him or her, and then others can go to God and see if what is being taught to someone else is also something for you at that time.

Sharing what man has taught others is not the truth.
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May the LORD give you wisdom and understanding in this: God bless you.
 
Moderators Note......
Even the heathens know how to do good things for their own and others.

However. .......All The Good in this world Will Not Get you into Heaven.
Only Accepting Jesus Christ into your life will get you into Heaven.
Jesus is Thee Only Way to Thee Father.

Blessings
FCJ
 
I agree with you it seems like everybody fighting cancer raising money, Give to this cause and that cause.
Even the rich today have good causes they support.Boy, they are in for a rude awakening! when they stand before Jesus.I am sure the conversation would go like this.: Jesus I gave to the poor, ran the relay race for cancer adopted a child from overseas. went to church I think I deserve to let into heaven.
Wrong answer! It's by the shed blood of Jesus applied to our lives. Nobody deserves.
to go to heaven. We deserve hell with all its torment. Yeshua took all that hell for us so we would not have to experience it He is the way the truth and the life. Every Eastern Religion is wrong,
I believe that God is looking for a personal relationship with mankind thru Christ and only Christ

Hallelujah!
 
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