As do I my friend but according to the laws of copywriting, I need to list who said what I posted said.
No more no less.
CONDITION –Miles Stanford
- Thread starter netchaplain
- Start date
As do I my friend but according to the laws of copywriting, I need to list who said what I posted said.
No more no less.
I note Major that you post numerous quotes that contain the words "faith" and "believe" as if the use of these words somehow disproves what I am saying. However you do not appear to grasp what the Bible means when it talks of "faith" and "belief". When the Bible talks of faith and belief it is not talking about what we SAY, it is talking about what we DO. Our faith and belief is not demonstrated by words but by our actions.
I cannot walk in faith unless I actually WALK. I cannot trust in Christ unless I actually PLACE my trust in Him and ENTRUST things to Him. That the Bible regards faith and belief as being in what we DO and not what we say is made abundantly clear in many places but perhaps most clear in the following passage:-
James 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. 20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? 22 Seest thou how faith wrought (meaning worked together with) with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? 23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness:
Note the FAITH and BELIEF of Abraham lies in his ACTUAL offering of Isaac on the altar. It is his ACTING in faith and belief that was imputed to him for righteousness.
In the Bible "faith" and "belief" in the Lord or Christ always means the willingness to ACT and DO in faith and belief in the Lord and Christ. Quoting passage after passage that highlight the need for belief and faith do not disprove my point, they help to strengthen it.
Having faith in a chair and believing it will hold your weight is without meaning - UNTIL you actually sit in it. Only THEN do you really have such faith and belief. Before that they are just empty words.
And you just swiched the subject we were discussing from "doing something to be save" to FAITH.
When we read the posing I made it is clear that the use of the words faith were in conjunction to the grace of God in salvation.
So I take that to mean we are done with that conversation of works are included in salvation as that was what we were involved in.
as I stated and stand by...........Faith is the instrument of salvation and it is the ONLY element that the sinner brings to the great transaction of salvation. Yet, it too is the gift of God!!!!
I leave this conversation now as I can not believe there is anything to add to it.
Good day.
No switch at all Major. Merely pointing out that you cannot have the faith the Lord speaks of without actually DOING something based on it. But I too sense that our conversation (yours and mine that is, happy to discuss with others still) has drawn to an end.
All I can do is leave you with the words of James himself in the hope you may at some point further ponder, in your own mind, the significance of their truth:-
"Faith without works is DEAD" (James 2:20)
Bye for now but am sure we will meet again on other threads.
I guess there is still more to add to this.
My intent was to allow you to have the last word, however as you stated.... "All I can do is leave you with the words of James himself in the hope you may at some point further ponder, in your own mind, the significance of their truth".
Having pondered James statement and having understood what he meant by it I need to leave you with the words of Paul in the hope you may at some point further ponder, in your own mind, the significance of their truth.
“Whatsoever is not of faith is sin” Romans 14:23
If you will study the 14th chapter of Romans, you will see that Paul considers the relationships of believers to their brethren who are weaker in the faith, and the liberty that each has in Christ to partake of or abstain from certain things, for example, the eating of meats. In so doing he contrasts those things which are earthly and temporal with those things which respect the kingdom of God, being heavenly and eternal. Constantly and repeatedly throughout the whole epistle, and here in a most practical part of it, the attention is set upon Christ and His Gospel.
Paul’s emphasis throughout this chapter is that many of the things which men so easily make rules out of, by which they judge one another, are in themselves of little consequence (14:14). What is important is the motive behind what we do, that all things should be done as unto the Lord, as springing forth from faith: “for whatsoever is not of faith is sin” Romans 14:23. All must regard Christ for He is all, and in all.
So much of what men stress in religion, so much of the practices which they press upon others, so much of what they set up as a standard by which they judge and condemn others, is that which springs forth from the flesh, is that which is earthly, not heavenly. It might seem ‘right and proper’ but it merely respects man approaching unto God in the will of his flesh. Such things owe nothing to the leading of the Spirit, and nothing to the walk of faith. The flesh so easily creeps into the things of God, and in to our judgment concerning such things. But we are called to walk in the Spirit, not in the flesh. To walk by faith, not by sight.
Whatsoever is not of faith is sin. Whatsoever. Whatever we may do, however good it may seem before men outwardly, if it is not of faith, it is sin.
Yes, faith is the rule by which the believer walks. “The just shall live by faith” (Romans 1:17). This principle applies to all aspects of his life. He lives by faith.
2 Corth. 5:7......
"For we walk by faith, not by sight".
Man says. "Seeing is believing." Man says....."Doing is believing". So when a man sees something, he is convicted, and his mind, then, is inclined to what he has seen. When he does something he is convicted and impressed by what he has just done. Now please consider the fact that in the life of the believer, faith is the controlling factor that motivates his conduct. The importance of eyesight is true in the physical realm, as well as the act of doing something, but it means almost nothing in the spiritual realm. Find that hard to delieve???? Then consider ancient Israel my friends.
The Israelites saw multiple miracles in Egypt and in the wilderness, but they seem to have profited them almost nothing. NO ONE IN THE HISTORY OF HUMANITY SAW MORE WORKS OF GOD OR DID MORE WORKS THEMSELVES FOR GOD. They saw the Nile turn to blood. They saw the frogs. They saw the lice. They saw the darkness. They saw the hail. They saw the fire on the ground. They saw the murrain kill the cattle. They saw the firstborn die. They saw the Red Sea part. They saw the pillar of fire and the cloud. They saw water coming out of the rock. They saw manna on the ground every day for forty years. They saw all those things.
Yet, what they saw did not affect their minds spiritually at all because eyesight and what they did means almost nothing in terms of the spiritual. Faith is the foundation, the assurance, the substance, the confidence, of things not seen—the invisible realm of God. In terms of faith, what a person can see with his eyes is more likely to frighten him and create doubt than it is to build faith. What he does, because we are under the curse of original sin, does nothing but give him the need to boast about what he has done. Seeing and doing are not faith.
What then is faith??????
Hebrews 11:1.............
" Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen."
Sorry Major, I was under the impression you were looking to end the conversation which is why I didn't introduce anything new in my last post. But I am happy to keep discussing it for as long as it may help clarify the issues for anybody out there visiting this thread and pondering these things for themselves. That is the main reason why I enter these discussions. Indeed there is no point having these forums if that is not the reason for them.
Before I address Romans 14 I'll clarify the importance of the TRUTH that James spoke of. If it is true (and it must be because it is in the Bible) that without works faith is dead then we MUST conclude that any reference to "faith" except dead faith in the Bible is a reference to faith ACCOMPANIED by works. Anywhere in the Bible you see the word "faith", unless it is referring to a dead faith you should be reading "faith accompanied by works". We know this because James has declared that faith is dead UNLESS it is accompanied by works and we know this to be true because it is clearly stated to be true in the word of God.
Therefore
“Whatsoever is not of faith is sin” Romans 14:23
is properly to be understood as meaning:-
“Whatsoever is not of faith (accompanied by works) is sin” Romans 14:23
But in this instance we must also remember that the "whatever" here is in fact - works. It is about what people DO, which becomes clearer when quoted in context. Therefore to be a little more grammatically correct what this passage is saying is:-
“Whatsoever (WORK) is not of faith is sin” Romans 14:23
But whichever way you look at it the passage in no way advocates that you can have faith WITHOUT works. That would be directly contradicting the clearly stated truth of JAMES and Paul would not do that.
But as to Romans 14 the key to the proper understanding of it lays in the first sentence:
Rom 14:1 Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations.
The words "doubtful disputations" are the Greek words "dialogismos diakrisis"
In short it means matters of PERSONAL JUDGEMENT. These are things about which neither Jesus nor the Lord have made clear commands or instructions about that everybody must abide by. They are things that pertain to the PERSONAL relationship between a man and his God that a man in his OWN mind considers to be the right thing for HIM to do regardless of what anybody else chooses to do.
Again nothing in Romans 14 declares that you can have faith WITHOUT works except that it be a dead faith. The Bible does not contradict itself.
Regarding your reference to 2 Corth. 5:7...... "For we walk by faith, not by sight", note that the operative word here is WALK. We walk by faith not by sight. It does not say "We sit around and do nothing by faith not by sight".
Again because of the truth of James we should understand "For we walk by faith (that is accompanied by works), not by sight". But then walking itself is work. It could have just as easily said "For we WORK by faith, not by sight".
Again NOTHING here declares that we can have faith WITHOUT works. You cannot make the Bible contradict itself.
Remember the point of this discussion is that you cannot be saved by doing nothing. As James so clearly pointed out faith WITHOUT works is DEAD. As Jesus said, He will reject those who say "Lord, Lord" but do not DO the will of the Lord.
You said...........................
Therefore
“Whatsoever is not of faith is sin” Romans 14:23
is properly to be understood as meaning:-
“Whatsoever is not of faith (accompanied by works) is sin” Romans 14:23
But that (accompanied by works) is not found in that verse is it my friend. You are adding what you want it to say and that is not acceptable.
Not so my friend. I can not an any way agree with your comments. It is NOT "PROPERLY" UNDERSTOOD AT ALL. iT IS WHAT IT SAYS IT IS!!!
Just so no one misunderstands … Christians do not get saved (forgiven) from their sins by “doing good works,” nor do they STAY saved (forgiven) by “doing good works.” Christians are not justified by "doing good works" either. Christians are saved solely by BELIEVING (trusting) that Jesus Christ paid full penalty for ALL their sins by His dying on the cross and taking full punishment that they deserved for their sins, and they are justified by believing as well.
Thus Christians are not saved BY their good works. Christians are saved to DO good works. It is crucially important to know the difference.
Then what purpose does “doing good works” have? What’s the point in engaging in “good works”? Engaging oneself in “good works” is openly demonstrating our appreciation to God for saving us -- openly looking for ways to glorify Him -- and it's the means by which we lay up rewards in heaven.
The gift of eternal salvation is a free gift given by God to all those who will believe on Jesus and what His death on the cross really means for all of us. These next 3 verses will specifically tell us that good works will not get us into heaven. Works are needed after salvation.
The Bible says that faith without works is dead – but that is after you have received God’s gift of eternal salvation. After you get saved, God has a plan and a purpose for your life, and this is where you will go to work for God into whatever your calling is going to be in Him. But to initially receive the gift of eternal salvation from God the Father is simply done by having faith and belief in Jesus Christ and what He personally did for you with His death on the cross. Here are the verses:
- “For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast.” Eph. 2:8.
- “… knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ … for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.”Gal. 2:16.
- “Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin … for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.” Rom. 3:20 & 23.
A person is saved through faith and faith alone. Remember, "faith" is in the saving blood of Christ - Romans 3:25. Since salvation is through faith and faith alone, God has excluded any human boasting according to Romans 3:27.
There are many other psuedo Christian Churches that also have works in their plan for salvation. Its either for salvation or to maintain it. This is often used as the means to keep one working for their cause thinking there is no where else to go to serve or know God. This is simply not true.
The worlds religion's have man pleasing God by his own hands and deeds, trying to reach upward to God. Christianity teaches man is unable to reach God by anything we do, so God himself reached downward with his own hand from heaven. He became a man to accomplish the solution of our dilemma which has always been sin. this was done through the person of Jesus Christ.
In Isaiah 64:6 it states of our works our moral inclinations “we are all like an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are like filthy rags.” In other words no one would ever think of using them before God to show their righteousness or being clean. These like filthy rags (a strong description of used sanitary napkins).
Gods standard is perfection, something we cannot fathom since we never see it or experience it. His perfection is from his own nature, this is why he is separate from his creation.
He has made one way for all mankind to know his love and forgiveness. This was done through the work of Jesus on the cross, he died for our sins. This is what is called grace, unmerited favor because of what he has done, we need to do no work to receive it. Its all been taken care of. This is what is called the gospel (good news).
There are some who believe this good news to a certain extent. But they will then add on a certain criteria for one to follow afterwards . By doing this they are proposing that having faith in the Gospel is not enough. What if someone is believing the gospel but feels they must do works, such as tithing, witnessing door to door, keeping the 10 commandments, being baptized a certain way etc. to have God accept them? They have then removed themselves from the gospel of grace. All these things are done after we receive the free gift. To get salvation or maintain it by works is then mixing mans ability with God's. Then the gospel, what he has done is said to be insufficient. They may not come right out and say this but in practice this is exactly what they are saying.
Think of it this way. If it was your birthday and a friend came a gave a gift , something that you really wanted you'd be very thankful. but what if you pulled out your wallet and said let me pay you for your gift. That would be a real insult to him. He gave it to you out of love not asking for anything in return.
Lets look at the popular religions that claim to be the Christian church and what they teach about how one receives or obtains salvation.
Roman Catholicism- sacraments-is an outward sign given by Christ to give grace. The entrance to the sacraments begins with baptism which erases original sin. Then one is able to partake of the sacraments as extensions of the redeeming acts of Christ. Then comes confirmation, The Eucharist, confession, holy orders, marriage etc. Again the gospel of grace is muddied over with other activities.
No Misty.......works have nothing to do with salvation whatsoever. If we think that they do, then we cheapen the work of Christ on the cross.
You said
"Remember the point of this discussion is that you cannot be saved by doing nothing."
I could never forget that my friend. It is a FUNDAMENTAL of the Christian that man can not do one single thing to propagate his salvaltion.
Paul does not counteract James. YOU are the one who ADDED the words.........
“Whatsoever (WORK) is not of faith is sin” Romans 14:23.
You also added to the Word of God when you posted....
"is properly to be understood as meaning/“Whatsoever is not of faith (accompanied by works) is sin” Romans 14:23
That means it is YOU who are in disagrement not Paul or James.
Then you comment...........
"Again nothing in Romans 14 declares that you can have faith WITHOUT works except that it be a dead faith. The Bible does not contradict itself."
WRONG AGAIN.
The Bible literally says........“Whatsoever is not of faith is sin” Romans 14:23.
That is what it says. !!!! YOU added the word WORK. YOU added the words ACCOMPANIED BY WORKS!!!
I hope you and the ones reading these comments will allow me the opportunity to get out the Word of God here in a lengthy post. I do not appologize for the length, but instead thank God for the ability to properly divide His Word for our benifit.
Many people have completly misunderstood the meaning of James as to the salvaton of all Christians and that seems to be the case here as well. The message of Christianity, like that of every religion, is that men are saved by good works. But the unique message of the Christian religion alone is that salvation comes by the works of God the Son, the Lord Jesus Christ, not by sinners' works. It is the sum of his righteous works of obedience to God's royal law which is imputed to all who are joined to him by faith. The righteous judgment of God which the Lamb of God suffered in our place on Golgotha - because of our lack of good works and because of our abundance of bad works - is the utterly adequate basis for the church's salvation. That is Christianity. Christ's active and passive works of obedience redeem all who receive him by faith.
We see only some of our sins but what we see we despise. We see only some of our good works, but we scorn them as the foundation of our salvation. Our one and only plea before God is that Christ has lived and died for us. That is our faith: it is focused in the good works of the Lord Jesus alone. That is the Christian religion. It is perfectly expressed in the opening verses of Romans chapter 5:............
"Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have gained access by faith into this
grace in which we now stand. And we rejoice in the hope of the glory of God."
Our faith does not save us because it is imperfect faith: our faith did not obey God's law; our faith did not die for us; our faith did not rise from the dead. That was Christ's great prerogative. He lived the loving life we could never live, and died the accursed death sinners must die unless they find a Saviour. Every single person in heaven - and that will be a company more than any man can number - will be there because of the good works of the Lord Jesus Christ, not because of their own. Our faith, focused in him, is the channel by which his blessings become ours.
Then what is James saying in this section of his letter ? Is he contradiction Paul??
1).
Firstly, he is stating what the whole New Testament affirms, that every Christian saved through faith in the Son of God has this calling, to do good works. This comes AFTER the salvatyion of the believer.
Ephesians 2:10...........
"We are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do".
Titus 2:14.................
"Jesus Christ gave himself for us "to purify for himself a people that are his very own, eager to do what is good"
Matt. 5:16.................
"Let you light shine before men" says the Lord Jesus Christ ".
Matt. 5:48............
"Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect".
Romans 12:1.........
"Offer your bodies as living sacrifices, holy and pleasing to God".
There is not a membrane separating the convictions of James from any New Testament teaching about the necessity of good works as a mark of union with Christ, and as fulfilling our obligation to our neighbour, and as our submission to our Redeemer's commandments. That is taught by every other writer in the Bible, but it is not understood by some people within evangelical churches. In a "Handbook of Personal Evangelism" produced by American Bible College we read these words, "Any teaching that demands a change of conduct toward either God or man for salvation is to add works or human effort to faith, and this contradicts all scripture and is an accursed message" ( ed. Stanford, Seymore and Streib, Florida Bible College, 1975, Hollywood, Florida). That 'believer' mentioned by James (2:15) who ignores his starving freezing siblings might give a hearty 'Amen' to that statement, but it is Scripture itself that demands a change of conduct if anyone professes to be in Christ Jesus. Christian works are not a contributory offering to purchase our redemption (which is by the precious blood of Christ alone) but an evidence that we are the redeemed of the Lord. We are saved through faith alone, but the faith that saves is never alone, it is always zealous to do good works.
2).
Three words, 'faith,' 'justification' and 'works' are capable of being used in a different sense in various contexts - like many other words in and out of the Bible.
When James uses the word 'faith' here he means an intellectual assent which has no effect upon conduct. Even demons have that sort of faith. But when the apostle Paul uses the word 'faith' he is talking about an attitude of the entire man by which his whole life is entrusted to Christ. So, the faith James condemns is not the faith Paul commends. Paul is just as severe as James in denigrating a faith that permits people to continue in sin. Paul's 'faith' is that which receives the Spirit who gives power to men to lead holy lives. James is demeaning a cerebral acknowledgement of faith in God which doesn't touch one's daily living.
3).
When James uses the word 'justify' he is using it in the sense of 'vindicate.' He says (in v.24) "a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone." The works of a person like Abraham or like Rahab vindicated his or her claims to believe in God. Their conduct showed that they truly had faith in God. Jesus said on one occasion, "wisdom is justified of her children" (Matthew 11:19). We don't need to brag up the importance of wisdom: it is vindicated by all who live wisely. When Paul uses the word 'justify' he uses it in the sense of declaring someone to be righteous. James uses it in the sense of a demonstrating that one is a genuine believer. Thomas Manton says that in Paul's sense a sinner is absolved, and in James' sense a believer is approved.
4).
When James commends what he refers to as 'works' he is speaking of those actions in the lives of Christians which spring up from new life in Christ. Paul is in total agreement with James. He says that no man can inherit the kingdom of God without such works (Gals. 5:21). But Paul also is concerned with a massive problem that James does not deal with in this letter, Jewish reliance upon the 'works of the law', that is, works done by human sweat intended to get men salvation. Paul wants us all to know that "a man is not justified by observing the law" (Gal. 2:16). That is not the way of salvation. The reason is clear, our best works are imperfect, spoiled by self, and done out of mixed motives. They cannot justify us.
So James is simply saying about works what the whole of the Bible teaches. He has, as we have seen, some special emphases of terminology, but he also introduces some vivid examples which lay the importance of a consistent godlike life on the consciences of every one of his readers. James in our passage uses hyperbole, then irony, then venerable example, then a most incredible example to get this one message across, faith without works is dead - not that 'it does not exist' - it is all around us - but it is devoid of the life of God.
Firstly let me address the accusation you make of me about the words of Paul.
James declares that faith without works is dead. Meaning faith unaccompanied by works is dead while faith accompanied by works is not. So let people judge for themselves is Paul when he says "faith" speaking of DEAD faith which avails nothing or the faith that is accompanied by works??
As to Romans 14:23 the FULL context is:-
Rom 14:20-23 For meat destroy not the work of God. All things indeed are pure; but it is evil for that man who eateth with offence. 21 It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak. 22 Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth. 23 And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.
Again let people judge for themselves, is not Paul speaking of the things people DO and don't DO and is not what we DO or abstain from, works?? Is not the "whatsoever" meaning whatsoever we DO or abstain from?
As to all the rest Major you are (not for the first time) arguing against things I have NEVER declared. It is as if you are addressing your posts to me but arguing with somebody else. Let me clarify it for you and everybody else.
Are we saved by the Grace of God alone? Emphatically YES!
Can we EARN salvation by works? An emphatic NO!
Is faith that is unaccompanied by works DEAD? An Emphatic YES! (From James also)
Can DEAD faith save us? An emphatic NO! (that's the point James is making)
Must we have the faith that is accompanied by works (not dead faith) to receive the Grace of God? An emphatic YES! (ALL faith that is not dead faith is accompanied by works according to James).
Is it sufficient to SAY "Lord, Lord" to be saved. Clearly a NO! (from Jesus Himself).
Must we also DO the will of the Lord to be saved. A clear YES! (again from Jesus Himself)
Is Jesus the author of salvation for all those who OBEY Him? An emphatic YES! according to the Bible.
The Bible declares that salvation is by the grace of God alone, given freely to those who have the faith in Christ that is accompanied by works (not dead faith) and who DO the will of the Father and who OBEY Christ.
It also says that those who only SAY "Lord, Lord" (proclaim faith and belief) but who do not DO the will of the Father shall NOT enter the Kingdom of Heaven and that those who profess faith but do not do WORKS of faith have a DEAD faith.
I will leave it for others to judge for themselves if a DO-NOTHING faith and belief will incur God's grace or God's wrath.
And I think we have reached the point where my discernment suggests I leave the discussion and move on to other things.
This is Misty - moving on.
James declares that faith without works is dead. Meaning faith unaccompanied by works is dead while faith accompanied by works is not. So let people judge for themselves is Paul when he says "faith" speaking of DEAD faith which avails nothing or the faith that is accompanied by works??
As to Romans 14:23 the FULL context is:-
Rom 14:20-23 For meat destroy not the work of God. All things indeed are pure; but it is evil for that man who eateth with offence. 21 It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak. 22 Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth. 23 And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.
Again let people judge for themselves, is not Paul speaking of the things people DO and don't DO and is not what we DO or abstain from, works?? Is not the "whatsoever" meaning whatsoever we DO or abstain from?
As to all the rest Major you are (not for the first time) arguing against things I have NEVER declared. It is as if you are addressing your posts to me but arguing with somebody else. Let me clarify it for you and everybody else.
Are we saved by the Grace of God alone? Emphatically YES!
Can we EARN salvation by works? An emphatic NO!
Is faith that is unaccompanied by works DEAD? An Emphatic YES! (From James also)
Can DEAD faith save us? An emphatic NO! (that's the point James is making)
Must we have the faith that is accompanied by works (not dead faith) to receive the Grace of God? An emphatic YES! (ALL faith that is not dead faith is accompanied by works according to James).
Is it sufficient to SAY "Lord, Lord" to be saved. Clearly a NO! (from Jesus Himself).
Must we also DO the will of the Lord to be saved. A clear YES! (again from Jesus Himself)
Is Jesus the author of salvation for all those who OBEY Him? An emphatic YES! according to the Bible.
The Bible declares that salvation is by the grace of God alone, given freely to those who have the faith in Christ that is accompanied by works (not dead faith) and who DO the will of the Father and who OBEY Christ.
It also says that those who only SAY "Lord, Lord" (proclaim faith and belief) but who do not DO the will of the Father shall NOT enter the Kingdom of Heaven and that those who profess faith but do not do WORKS of faith have a DEAD faith.
I will leave it for others to judge for themselves if a DO-NOTHING faith and belief will incur God's grace or God's wrath.
And I think we have reached the point where my discernment suggests I leave the discussion and move on to other things.
This is Misty - moving on.
Faith will always be evidenced by works because "faith without works is dead?" That's why Paul includes, "I will shew thee my faith by my works." These works are always from salvation, not for it, because they are the works, or fruit, of the Spirit, not of us.
I believe it's the new nature (which is of Christ: Col 3:10) the Spirit uses to cause us to yeild to God's will, "For it is God which works in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure" (Phil 2:13).
Immature and caranl Christians can have little in works but I believe God continues to work to resove these issues, because they are His.
I believe it's the new nature (which is of Christ: Col 3:10) the Spirit uses to cause us to yeild to God's will, "For it is God which works in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure" (Phil 2:13).
Immature and caranl Christians can have little in works but I believe God continues to work to resove these issues, because they are His.
Maybe that is a good choice, and as you are moving on please remember YOUR own words on this subject and not what you "claim" I have said of you. The truth is that you are judged by your own words my dear friend. I have not added one single thing nor accused you of anything. But it seems you have trouble remembering what you actually did say.
Your words in comment #7.
"If we can keep this as a discussion I will show you that both faith and works cannot be separated from salvation BY the Grace of the Lord."
Hmmmmm? Curious isn't it?
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Your comment in #5.......
"The reality is that you cannot get to Heaven except by the grace of the Lord, BUT AT THE SAME TIME you cannot get to Heaven except that you obey and serve Christ."
One wonders how the thief on the cross got to Paradise.
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Your comment #7......
"Salvation is by the grace of the Lord BUT He has told us what WE must DO if we are to receive such grace."
Hmmmmm. It gets more curious.
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Your comment in #7
"In short the Lord has said IF you do that which the New Convenant requires of you then I will fulfill the covenant by granting you the grace of salvation and entry to the Kingdom of Heaven."
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Your comment in #8 was...............
"I will leave it for others to decide for themselves whether or not Jesus Himself has declared that those who do not OBEY and DO the will of the Lord do not receive the grace of salvation."
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Your comment in #11....................
"The danger is in the idea that you can receive the grace of the Lord to salvation without the necessity to actually do anything except call him "Lord" and declare with your lips that you have faith."
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I post all of YOUR comments to answer YOUR accusation of.........................
"As to all the rest Major you are (not for the first time) arguing against things I have NEVER declared. It is as if you are addressing your posts to me but arguing with somebody else. Let me clarify it for you and everybody else."
NOW that we are clear on the actual words said by who said them I do agree with you when you said correctly......................
"I will leave it for others to judge for themselves if a DO-NOTHING faith and belief will incur God's grace or God's wrath."
Then you said............
"And I think we have reached the point where my discernment suggests I leave the discussion and move on to other things."
I wish you a Happy Jesus birthday and all of the blessing of the Lord to you!
Thanks Misty and Major. Detailed posts for both views!
Major I don't think there is ANY debate on us earning or working for our salvation. I think we all agree that what Jesus did on the cross was good and sufficient in God's eyes. Christians who don't believe in eternal salvation don't automatically believe in a 'works based salvation', but rather a 'works based, shipwreck of salvation'.
God gives us His Son for our salvation and promises to never leave nor forsake us. What more can He do to ''keep us''? We have to accept the gift of salvation (or else we don't have it) and promise to do our best to never leave nor forsake Him.
As Christians with The Holy Spirit we can better discern how evil sins are. We know the heart of God. Surely we MUST be nervous before God if we knowingly grieve The Holy Spirit by ignoring His convictions and continue in an extremity of unrepentant sin?
2 Peter 1:5-11
5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; 6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; 7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity. 8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins. 10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall: 11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.
''Faith without works is dead''. I don't read it as we need works to be saved but rather that the works are a clear sign that we have a heart in submission and obedience to Christ.
As I said on the other Net thread. Most of those who believe in eternal salvation, believe so because they feel very close to Jesus and have confirmation from The Holy Spirit that they are abiding in Christ. But the risk of preaching it as a precedent is too high. But at the same time we can't preach it is easy to lose our salvation.
Major I don't think there is ANY debate on us earning or working for our salvation. I think we all agree that what Jesus did on the cross was good and sufficient in God's eyes. Christians who don't believe in eternal salvation don't automatically believe in a 'works based salvation', but rather a 'works based, shipwreck of salvation'.
God gives us His Son for our salvation and promises to never leave nor forsake us. What more can He do to ''keep us''? We have to accept the gift of salvation (or else we don't have it) and promise to do our best to never leave nor forsake Him.
As Christians with The Holy Spirit we can better discern how evil sins are. We know the heart of God. Surely we MUST be nervous before God if we knowingly grieve The Holy Spirit by ignoring His convictions and continue in an extremity of unrepentant sin?
2 Peter 1:5-11
5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; 6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; 7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity. 8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins. 10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall: 11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.
''Faith without works is dead''. I don't read it as we need works to be saved but rather that the works are a clear sign that we have a heart in submission and obedience to Christ.
As I said on the other Net thread. Most of those who believe in eternal salvation, believe so because they feel very close to Jesus and have confirmation from The Holy Spirit that they are abiding in Christ. But the risk of preaching it as a precedent is too high. But at the same time we can't preach it is easy to lose our salvation.
You my friend have grasped the whole of the conversation and I agree with you.
Your comment..............
''Faith without works is dead''. I don't read it as we need works to be saved but rather that the works are a clear sign that we have a heart in submission and obedience to Christ.
Correctly said my friend!!! Good works COME from salvation and THAT is what James said and he is in complete agreement with Paul....Me, and YOU.
Over the years I have seen the last 13 verses of James 2 to be among the most misunderstood passages of the Scripture for Bible students. Some read them and perceive James to oppose Pauls doctrine. IF one is pre-disposed in his thinking on this subject, they will then use these verses to say that works are part of salvation.
But a careful analysis shows indissolube harmony between James and Paul. The difference in expression comes from their distinct purposes. Paul wrote to explain the gospel. When James wrote his letter, he had in view its "practical" implications.
Close, indepth study shows us that ONE......James does not state that the hypothetical person "has" faith, but merely a man SAY HE HATH FAITH. It distinguishes the one who "possesses" from the one who merely "professes".
SECONDLY......conclusions are based on the question------"can faith save him?"
Which faith???? That which the man claims to have or that which we see that he demonstrates that he does have.
That then being the case, James and Paul in fact agree and the fact is.....THEY MUST AGREE.
WHY???? Because the same Holy Spirit that inspired Paul to write and state the doctrine of salvation is by the GRACE by God and nothing else, is the same Holy Spirit that inspired James to to write his doctrine that ..........
TRUE SAVING FAITH RESULTS IN A CHANGED LIFE AS EVIDENCED BY GOOD WORKS!!!
Happy Jesus birthday my friend.