Daniel 9

[Major]

I honestly don't remember a time I didn't know God existed, that Christ was God in the flesh. I don't think I really understood the Holy Spirit (growing up we called it the Holy Ghost). I think I misidentified it in myself as the "good me" giving myself credit I didn't deserve.

Good point!

 

[Major]

Brother Paul - you continue to awe me. I could just read you all day (you too Major!)

Well, for a love offering of $100.00 I can send you a................................
.
.
.
.
.
Just kidding. I wanted Michael to feel at home.

 

[Brother Paul]

Oh we are in such need for more Daniels in or time in our country who would get on their face daily and humbling themselves simply but sincerely pray for God's intervention. And Daniel includes himself...he is not just applying his contrition as concerning everyone else but himself. And thank you Lord for raising up those who do this. I think people who find all they can do for the Lord is pray do not realize the importance of this ministry...one saint on his/her knees is worth 1000 complacent pew warmers...and don't think I hear not your heart Mitzpa...I never knew God but knew of Him and any good of any value to Him in me, is also from Him having graced me and showing His love enough to wrestle me and rend me like a garment...

Light had come into the world but I loved the darkness...but for some unknown reason (for which I am most grateful) He loved me...amazing...

Sincerely,

a most prodigal of sons, Paul

 

[Major]

Have we had enough time to discuss verses 10-14?????

What say we go on to 14-19?

Daniel 9:15-19
King James Version (KJV)
15 And now, O Lord our God, that hast brought thy people forth out of the land of Egypt with a mighty hand, and hast gotten thee renown, as at this day; we have sinned, we have done wickedly.
16 O Lord, according to all thy righteousness, I beseech thee, let thine anger and thy fury be turned away from thy city Jerusalem, thy holy mountain: because for our sins, and for the iniquities of our fathers, Jerusalem and thy people are become a reproach to all that are about us.
17 Now therefore, O our God, hear the prayer of thy servant, and his supplications, and cause thy face to shine upon thy sanctuary that is desolate, for the Lord's sake.
18 O my God, incline thine ear, and hear; open thine eyes, and behold our desolations, and the city which is called by thy name: for we do not present our supplications before thee for our righteousnesses, but for thy great mercies.
19 O Lord, hear; O Lord, forgive; O Lord, hearken and do; defer not, for thine own sake, O my God: for thy city and thy people are called by thy name.

The grounds or better said basis for Daniels request for forgiveness and a return to Jerusalem was not in the fact that Israel had now turned back to God.......because they had not done so. The appeal was to God's righteousness in verse 16, for the Lord's sake (vs. 17).

"For thy great mercies" (vs. 18), ....."for thy city and thy people are called by thy name".(vs. 19). God's name was defamed as long as His Temple and people were a reproach. Daniel asked God to reverse that situation for the sake of God's glory alone.

Astonishing insight into the depravity of man and the merciful nature of God is indicated in vs. 18, as Daniel based his plea for restoration not upon the past or even the future righteousness of Israel, but upon God's great mercies and covenantal faithfulness. He asked for his prayer to be heard. "Please look at the city which we consecrated or dedicated to you and your name. The pleas to the Lord to hear, hearken, forgive, and not put off (listen, look, and take action) taking action to do away with the punishment.."

 

[Major]

In the Hebrew, Jeremiah 25:11 refers to “nations” (plural) and does not specify Israel at all. This is because the actual captivity of Jews in Babylon did not begin in 586 B.C., it began with the historically and archaeologically validated battle of Carchemish during the time of King Jehoiakim (also Jeconiah). Josephus, Antiquities, 10.11.1 quotes from the records of the Babylonian historian Berossus where he tells us of the battle in which Nebuchadnezzar defeated Egypt in 605 B.C. (when he was co-regent) and took captives of the Egyptians, the Syrians, the Phoenicians, and the Jews.

It was during this first phase of the Captivity that Daniel and his friends were captured and carried away from Jerusalem (Daniel 1:1). King Jehoiakim (Jehoiachin’s father) became a puppet king and servant of Nebuchadnezzar for three years before he plotted against him and was found out (2 Kings 24), it then followed that Jehoiachin became King in his father’s stead and reigned about eight years when Jerusalem was then besieged and the treasures of the Holy City were claimed as booty and taken with about 10,000 more people, including the King Jehoiachin and all his officers and family, back to Babylon. But this was not the end of the matter for Nebuchadnezzar then appointed Zedekiah the King (around 597 B.C.) and he reigned for 11 years (2 Kings 24:17-18). This fact is also historically confirmed archaeologically in “The Babylonian Chronicles” which say:

“He camped against the city of Judah and on the second day of the Month of Adar he captured the city and seized its King. A King of his own choice he appointed in the city and taking the vast tribute brought it back to Babylon.”

These final events of 586 B.C. indicated in Jeremiah 34, are confirmed historically and archaeologically by “the Lachish Letters”.

Now as to the time element of the alleged discrepancy, the error was purposely imposed by the self-professed Higher Critics knowing full well that most modern and western lay-scholars who inquire will judge the time thing according to our sense of reckoning time. The problem is that different peoples have different cultural ways of thinking about time, not every culture is minute/hour ridden in such a literal and obsessive/compulsive way we westerners have. These self-professed “Higher” Critics rely on the “ignorance of the masses” principle to fool people.

Their argument then continues when they declare, "I understand your reasoning but it seems to me that that explanation then, is inconsistent with 2 chronicles 36:20-21 which says: he (Nebuchadnezzar) took into exile in Babylon those who had escaped the sword, and they became servants to him and his sons until the establishment of the kingdom of Persia, to fulfill the word of the lord by the mouth of Jeremiah, until the land had enjoyed its Sabbaths. All the days that it lay desolate it kept Sabbath, to fulfill seventy years". Chronicles establishes specific boundaries of the seventy years and those boundaries fly in the face of historical fact....isn't 2 chronicles relevant or do you persist in the argument that the captivity started earlier?

So my brethren, do not be fooled, Chronicles is relevant, and I persist in my position, and here is why:

It appears to me that this understanding comes by the following misconceptions. First that to fulfill the prophecy of Leviticus,

Then the land will enjoy its sabbaths all the days of the desolation, while you are in your enemies’ land; then the land will rest and enjoy its sabbaths. All the days of its desolation it will observe the rest which it did not observe on your sabbaths, while you were living on it (Lev. 26:34-35).

For the land shall be abandoned by them, and shall make up for its sabbaths while it is made desolate without them. They, meanwhile, shall be making amends for their iniquity, because they rejected My ordinances and their soul abhorred My statutes (Lev. 26:43).

…it appears these critics either think God must, or is stating that He will, make up for every one of the Sabbatical years they missed in a wooden literal sense. Now indeed they violated 490 years of Sabbatical years (70 in all), neither did they free their slaves at those times (Jeremiah 34:13-17) as the ordinance of God dictated. It should not be assumed, by the same type of reasoning, that the land itself would have to have laid fallow and unused for an entire 70 years to fulfill the 2 Chronicles 36 reference (which it does not). Neither of these two most common assumptions are correct!

Nebuchadnezzar did in fact unknowingly finally carry them away in retribution for these violations, and that by these years the 70 years were fulfilled, but it wasn’t necessary to have the land lay fallow and unused for the full 70 years (which would be 10 sabbatical years, or a fallow unused year for each of the violated sabbatical years), only that there would be 1 year of captivity as punishment for each of the violated Sabbatical years (70 in all), which began with the captivity of the people in the time of Daniel…and that “…all the days that it lay desolate it kept Sabbath” was still true, only the cycle of renewal of the land regarding Sabbatical years, based on the Law of Jubilees, beginning the first year (year 50) following a cycle of 7 Sabbatical cycles (49 years), only requires 50 of the total number of years. So after what could represent an unobserved violated grand Jubilee (490 years), God not only freed the slaves of Israel, and in just exchange enslaved their unjust masters, but also restored a full Jubilee cycle (50 years within the 70) to renew the land. Each of the 70 years being 1 year of punishment on the people for each of the Sabbatical years that they had violated, and for not obeying His ordinances and statutes

Just to add here that God "confirmed" of fulfilled as promised the delivering upon the Hebrews "evil" and "calamity" (distress, sorrow). "For under the whole heaven" means "In all the world". The city of Jerusalem was in a state of complete desolation; its temple was in ruins; its people had been slain or borne into captivity. I believe that If it not were not for Daniel being in the middle of things in Babylon and, indirectly, representing the Jews, they would have been oppressed even more.

When all the catastrophes were occurring to the Jews, they were not following the laws as set down through Moses. The Law (first five books of the Bible) was not followed. The prophets told them all what would happen. The Jews were told to repent. With all the problems they had, the people did not bow and beg for forgiveness and turn from their evil ways. Therefore, they were all getting what God had promised.

The Lord "watched" (kept looking for repentance and instead saw iniquity and therefore saw the opportunity to "pour" the punishment) the Jews and waited patiently for repentance. He carefully watched the course of events; then He had to follow through because He HAS to keep His promises. That is His character.

 

[Brother Paul]

Have we had enough time to discuss verses 10-14?????

What say we go on to 14-19?

Daniel 9:15-19
King James Version (KJV)
15 And now, O Lord our God, that hast brought thy people forth out of the land of Egypt with a mighty hand, and hast gotten thee renown, as at this day; we have sinned, we have done wickedly.
16 O Lord, according to all thy righteousness, I beseech thee, let thine anger and thy fury be turned away from thy city Jerusalem, thy holy mountain: because for our sins, and for the iniquities of our fathers, Jerusalem and thy people are become a reproach to all that are about us.
17 Now therefore, O our God, hear the prayer of thy servant, and his supplications, and cause thy face to shine upon thy sanctuary that is desolate, for the Lord's sake.
18 O my God, incline thine ear, and hear; open thine eyes, and behold our desolations, and the city which is called by thy name: for we do not present our supplications before thee for our righteousnesses, but for thy great mercies.
19 O Lord, hear; O Lord, forgive; O Lord, hearken and do; defer not, for thine own sake, O my God: for thy city and thy people are called by thy name.

The grounds or better said basis for Daniels request for forgiveness and a return to Jerusalem was not in the fact that Israel had now turned back to God.......because they had not done so. The appeal was to God's righteousness in verse 16, for the Lord's sake (vs. 17).

"For thy great mercies" (vs. 18), ....."for thy city and thy people are called by thy name".(vs. 19). God's name was defamed as long as His Temple and people were a reproach. Daniel asked God to reverse that situation for the sake of God's glory alone.

Thank you God that you are faithful even when we are not...you are a covenant keeping God.

 

[Silk]

I've been wondering, Daniel to this point is not prophesizing because he got the return to Jerusalem from Jeremiah? And the part you are covering now is about Daniel praying for Israel?

 

[Brother Paul]

I think you hit the proverbial nail on the head Major...seen like this, Gabriel with his message becomes an answer for sure...it is through this anointed one who will be cut off that the healing and true restoration will really begin...He comes to put an end to sin and bring in everlasting righteousness (His Righteousness)...but I know I am getting ahead of things...sorry I get excited....

 

[Mitspa]

Have we had enough time to discuss verses 10-14?????

What say we go on to 14-19?

Daniel 9:15-19
King James Version (KJV)
15 And now, O Lord our God, that hast brought thy people forth out of the land of Egypt with a mighty hand, and hast gotten thee renown, as at this day; we have sinned, we have done wickedly.
16 O Lord, according to all thy righteousness, I beseech thee, let thine anger and thy fury be turned away from thy city Jerusalem, thy holy mountain: because for our sins, and for the iniquities of our fathers, Jerusalem and thy people are become a reproach to all that are about us.
17 Now therefore, O our God, hear the prayer of thy servant, and his supplications, and cause thy face to shine upon thy sanctuary that is desolate, for the Lord's sake.
18 O my God, incline thine ear, and hear; open thine eyes, and behold our desolations, and the city which is called by thy name: for we do not present our supplications before thee for our righteousnesses, but for thy great mercies.
19 O Lord, hear; O Lord, forgive; O Lord, hearken and do; defer not, for thine own sake, O my God: for thy city and thy people are called by thy name.

The grounds or better said basis for Daniels request for forgiveness and a return to Jerusalem was not in the fact that Israel had now turned back to God.......because they had not done so. The appeal was to God's righteousness in verse 16, for the Lord's sake (vs. 17).

"For thy great mercies" (vs. 18), ....."for thy city and thy people are called by thy name".(vs. 19). God's name was defamed as long as His Temple and people were a reproach. Daniel asked God to reverse that situation for the sake of God's glory alone.

Astonishing insight into the depravity of man and the merciful nature of God is indicated in vs. 18, as Daniel based his plea for restoration not upon the past or even the future righteousness of Israel, but upon God's great mercies and covenantal faithfulness. He asked for his prayer to be heard. "Please look at the city which we consecrated or dedicated to you and your name. The pleas to the Lord to hear, hearken, forgive, and not put off (listen, look, and take action) taking action to do away with the punishment.."

There seems to be a constant looking to the testimony of the temple and Gods original intention for His people? I often think in terms that God does not change...thus He is always bringing us back to the intention and purpose of the temple etc... Which we now know was all a picture and type of the Work of Christ and His Cross. You know how many times God has brought me back to that night I called upon Him..what a broken man I was and in a moment I was changed by that which was much greater. I am rambling a little but I think of the warning in the book of Revelations ..."you have forgotten your first love" Oh those first days of His love for me, it was all new and I was new. I would have gone strait to heaven if possible, and often ask the Lord why I cant just come home? He response there is work to do..and I need you to stay son. So I say OK Lord but I had rather be nearer to you... sorry to get of topic..

 

[Major]

There seems to be a constant looking to the testimony of the temple and Gods original intention for His people? I often think in terms that God does not change...thus He is always bringing us back to the intention and purpose of the temple etc... Which we now know was all a picture and type of the Work of Christ and His Cross. You know how many times God has brought me back to that night I called upon Him..what a broken man I was and in a moment I was changed by that which was much greater. I am rambling a little but I think of the warning in the book of Revelations ..."you have forgotten your first love" Oh those first days of His love for me, it was all new and I was new. I would have gone strait to heaven if possible, and often ask the Lord why I cant just come home? He response there is work to do..and I need you to stay son. So I say OK Lord but I had rather be nearer to you... sorry to get of topic..

Why do I keep seeing the phrase..........."SORRY TO GET OFF THE TOPIC".

That is the 3rd time now that I have seen that. I am not trying to be sarcastic or a smart _ _ _ (Figure it out), but have you guys not ever been in a Bible study class????

Bible study is when someone begins a topic with Bible quotes and gives the best explanation that he can. That then opens the door of hearts that are filled with the Holy Spirit then directs the ebb and flow of the conversation.

There is NEVER, EVER a time when Bible study is off the topic. Listen brothers and dear sisters, the TOPIC IS THE BIBLE!!!!

Allow the Holy Spirit to guide your thinking and whatever you bring up is exactly what God wants you to consider, think about and pray over!!!

Now.....Mitspa. If I may say so, your past sounds a lot like mine. The fact is, I can hardly believe that God would save someone like me..........and I have never gotten over the fact that He did!

Praise His name and glory to God!!!

 

[Major]

I think you hit the proverbial nail on the head Major...seen like this, Gabriel with his message becomes an answer for sure...it is through this anointed one who will be cut off that the healing and true restoration will really begin...He comes to put an end to sin and bring in everlasting righteousness (His Righteousness)...but I know I am getting ahead of things...sorry I get excited....

I hear you and even though I have read Daniel more times than I can remember, I always get duck bumps on the back of my neck!

 

[Major]

I've been wondering, Daniel to this point is not prophesizing because he got the return to Jerusalem from Jeremiah? And the part you are covering now is about Daniel praying for Israel?

That is not correct my dear sister.

If we go back to Daniel 6, we see the story of him being placed in the lions den. When we read Daniel 6:22............

"My God sent His angel and shut the lions’ mouths, so that they have not hurt me, because I was found innocent before Him; and also, O king, I have done no wrong before you.”

Now we have to ask.....Who was that angel? There is a teaching tool called the "Law of First Mention". It means that when a word or phrase is seen the 1st time in the Scriptures, what it means there is what it means everywhere else from that point on.

So then........."Who is this angel of God".

The first time we see the "Angel of the Lord" or "God's angel" is in Exodus 3:2-8. when Moses heard his name being called out of the burning bush that did not consume itself.

Ex, 3:2-8
2 And the Angel of the Lord appeared to him in a flame of fire from the midst of a bush. So he looked, and behold, the bush was burning with fire, but the bush was not consumed. 3 Then Moses said, “I will now turn aside and see this great sight, why the bush does not burn.” 4 So when the Lord saw that he turned aside to look, God called to him from the midst of the bush and said, “Moses, Moses!” And he said, “Here I am.” 5 Then He said, “Do not draw near this place. Take your sandals off your feet, for the place where you stand is holy ground.” 6 Moreover He said, “I am the God of your father—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.” And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look upon God. 7 And the Lord said: “I have surely seen the oppression of My people who are in Egypt, and have heard their cry because of their taskmasters, for I know their sorrows. 8 So I have come down to deliver them out of the hand of the Egyptians, and to bring them up from that land to a good and large land, to a land flowing with milk and honey, to the place of the Canaanites and the Hittites and the Amorites and the Perizzites and the Hivites and the Jebusites.

So then, we see here that it was the Lord Jesus Christ, pre-incarnate who was speaking from the burning bush.
It was that same Lord Jesus Christ who was with Shadrack, Meshake and Abednego in the firey firnance.

Hold on.......it was that same pre-incarnate Christ, "The angle of the Lord" that spent the night with Daniel in the lion's den.

After Daniel and Christ spend the night together petting kitty cats, Daniel then begins to explain visions in chapter 7:1..........

"In the 1st year of Belshazzar king of Babylon, Daniel had a dream and visions of his head upon his bed, then he wrote the dream and told the sum of the matters".

His vision then was of the four beasts of world domination as seen in a Lion,(Babylon) a Bear,(Medo-Persia) a Leopard(Greece) and an unknown beast that some call the Roman Empire.

So we can see that Daniels prophesying began mush earlier than chapter #9.

 

[Major]

I've been wondering, Daniel to this point is not prophesizing because he got the return to Jerusalem from Jeremiah? And the part you are covering now is about Daniel praying for Israel?

Context Silk. Before you get to the creamy inside of a peanut butter and jelly sandwich, you have to eat the bread first!

 

[AllieWi]

It seems that we have had a lot of time to kick around verses 7-9, what say we consider 10-14 of Daniel 9.

Daniel 9:10-14
English Standard Version (ESV)
10" and have not obeyed the voice of the Lord our God by walking in his laws, which he set before us by his servants the prophets. 11 All Israel has transgressed your law and turned aside, refusing to obey your voice. And the curse and oath that are written in the Law of Moses the servant of God have been poured out upon us, because we have sinned against him. 12 He has confirmed his words, which he spoke against us and against our rulers who ruled us,[a] by bringing upon us a great calamity. For under the whole heaven there has not been done anything like what has been done against Jerusalem. 13 As it is written in the Law of Moses, all this calamity has come upon us; yet we have not entreated the favor of the Lord our God, turning from our iniquities and gaining insight by your truth. 14 Therefore the Lord has kept ready the calamity and has brought it upon us, for the Lord our God is righteous in all the works that he has done, and we have not obeyed his voice."

WHY??? What was the reason for the judgment that fell on Israel???

Nehemiah 9:26
English Standard Version (ESV)
26 “Nevertheless, they were disobedient and rebelled against you and cast your law behind their back and killed your prophets, who had warned them in order to turn them back to you, and they committed great blasphemies".

Nehemiah 9:27
English Standard Version (ESV)
27 Therefore you gave them into the hand of their enemies, who made them suffer. And in the time of their suffering they cried out to you and you heard them from heaven, and according to your great mercies you gave them saviors who saved them from the hand of their enemies.

Jeremiah 11:8
English Standard Version (ESV)
8 Yet they did not obey or incline their ear, but everyone walked in the stubbornness of his evil heart. Therefore I brought upon them all the words of this covenant, which I commanded them to do, but they did not.”

As a result of neglecting God's law, judgment and persecution came upon them just as God had promised them that it would.
The judgment of God is not always fast and swift but it is always going to take place exactly as He tells us.

A child in a candy store puts a piece of candy in his pocket and walks out of the door. No one saw him and he says to himself....
That was really easy. Next day he does the same thing except it is not a piece of candy but a bag of candy. Same thing, nothing happens. Then the 3rd day he does the same thing except he takes a whole carton of candy and walks out of the door.
This time however the police are standing there waiting on him and BOOM! Judgment falls. Judgment is not always fast, but it is always SURE.

But, even in the middle of all that, as Daniel says, the people refused to pray or to turn from their iniquities and understand the truth of God's Word.(vs 13).

That is the same problem we have today. There is a Bible in every hotel and motel and in every home. The problem is that no one read it to find the truth of What God has in store for all of us. We tend to believe what some tells us or what we see on TV instead of reading the Word of God for ourselves.

The contrast was that God is righteous but as Daniel had to confess, the people had disobeyed God's voice which always brings judgment.

Are these judgments and warnings directed just to the Jewish people?

 

[Brother Paul]

Are these judgments and warnings directed just to the Jewish people?

To all the Israelites (not just the Jews) who were involved with the curses and oaths of the Law of God...but as an example we can learn much and the principles expressed are sound but it (like Deuteronomy 28 and others) does not apply directly to members of the New Covenant...

Their covenant agreement was based on their fulfilling the requirements of the Law...ours is based on His having done it on our behalf...

 

[AllieWi]

Wait I still don't see how an angel of The Lord is Jesus. It says "angel of The Lord" so how can we assume? But I have thought that He was the one with shadrach meshiach and abendigo.

 

[Major]

Wait I still don't see how an angel of The Lord is Jesus. It says "angel of The Lord" so how can we assume? But I have thought that He was the one with shadrach meshiach and abendigo.

HE was! We are not assuming Allie! We are documenting an established study method which will open the door of understanding for you which is as I said, "The Law of First Mention"!

Again, the Law of First Mention. The 1st time the phrase..."Angel of the Lord " is seen in Scriptures is in Ex. 2:2 ...........
"And the Angel of the Lord appeared to him in a flame of fire from the midst of a bush."

That tells us an ANGEL is in the burning bush. WHO is it.

Verse #4 then says........
"So when the Lord saw that he turned aside to look, God called to him from the midst of the bush and said, “Moses, Moses!”

Do you see it???? GOD calls from the bush! God is the one in the bush!!!

When we then consider Colossians 1:16 we know that the agent or person who did the Creating of all things was the Son of God, Jesus who is in fact God Himself.

Let me give you some examples:

1.
God changed Abram’s name to Abraham and made him the father of many nations. From that point on, his name was Abraham, not Abram.

2.
God changed Sarai’s name to Sarah and made her the mother of nations. From that point on her name remained Sarah.

3.
God changed Jacob’s name to Israel and made him the first Israeli.

4.
God in the flesh, Jesus Christ, changed the name of Simon to Peter and gave him primacy over the other apostles.

By that we can say with confidence that the Person in the bush who claims to be God is in fact the pre-incarnate Christ who is in fact God.
This is also referred to as a "Christophany". A visible manifestation of Christ.

So then, from Exodus 2 all through the Scriptures, when you see the phrase, "The Angle of the Lord", it can be considered to be Christ.

 

[Major]

To all the Israelites (not just the Jews) who were involved with the curses and oaths of the Law of God...but as an example we can learn much and the principles expressed are sound but it (like Deuteronomy 28 and others) does not apply directly to members of the New Covenant...

Their covenant agreement was based on their fulfilling the requirements of the Law...ours is based on His having done it on our behalf...

Correct. When it rains in Atlanta, everyone is effected and gets wet.

 

[Silk]

Cough - that's why I said - study from Daniel 1 - because we have only studied Daniel 9. Just sayin. Good post, Major we have a partial Daniel 6

 

[Brother Paul]

Wait I still don't see how an angel of The Lord is Jesus. It says "angel of The Lord" so how can we assume? But I have thought that He was the one with shadrach meshiach and abendigo.

Major is correct Allie...that being, referred to as THE Angel of the LORD later on in Exodus three declares Himself to be the I AM...the GOD of Moses fathers (Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob)...that is not the same as an angel of the Lord (like Gabriel or the two that went to Sodom)...this Angel of the LORD appears to others...when He appears to Hagar she declares she has seen the Lord 'face to face'...now Jesus tells us "no one has seen the Father at any time neother have they heard His voice the Son declares Him (that is makes Him known or manifest) so now who is "The Angel of the LORD"?