Deliverance From or Through The Tribulation?

[Phoneman777]

First of all....Major has and is not suggesting anything. You have a habit of putting words into others mouths my friend.

All the old Major has done is to quote Bible passages.

Secondly, where do we find that the distance is just a few hundred feet???(Isn't that an assumption?)
As far as we know it may be 10,000 miles. We just do not know.

Third. Major has assumed nothing whatsoever. Everything he says is supported by the Word of God which is the basis for all truth.

And he is still waiting for you to post the Scriptures you referred to in comment #51.

I have no such habit, my friend. It's what you wrote:
"You are still confusing the "Lord desending" as the 2nd Coming. He is comeing DOWN to earth BUT NOT TOUCHING the earth. He is coming for His saints in the air and that is the Rapture."

Do you not mean by this to say that the events in 1 Thess 4:16 do not describe the Second Coming b/c Jesus' feet do not touch the ground?

 

[Phoneman777]

A better question would be.......On what basis do you believe that Jesus coming in the clouds IS His Second Coming?

I have already posted a barrage of Scripture which support what I have said. Where are those which support your basis.

What about those verses from comment #51. ?????

You want verses to prove that the second time Jesus comes to earth from heaven would be His Second Coming? Really.

 

[Major]

Bro, on what basis do you deny that Jesus' "suspended in the clouds" coming when the saints rise is not His Second Coming?

Contrasts Between the Rapture and the Second Coming
Christ comes for His own (John John 14:3; 1Th. 1Th. 5:28; ). Christ comes with His own (1Th. 1Th. 3:13; Jude Jude 1:14.
Christ comes in the air (1Th. 1Th. 4:17). Christ comes to the earth (Zec. Zec. 14:4; Acts Acts 1:11).
Christ claims His bride (1Th. 1Th. 4:16-17). Christ comes with His bride (Rev. Rev. 19:6-14+).
Removal of believers (1Th. 1Th. 4:17). Manifestation of Christ (Mal. Mal. 4:2).
Only His own see Him (1Th. 1Th. 4:13-18). Every eye shall see Him (Rev. Rev. 1:7+).
Tribulation begins (2Th. 2Th. 1:6-9). Millennial Kingdom begins (Rev. Rev. 20:1-7+).
Saved are delivered from wrath (1Th. 1Th. 1:10; 1Th. 1Th. 5:9). Unsaved experience the wrath of God (Rev. Rev. 6:12-17+).
No signs precede rapture (1Th. 1Th. 5:1-3). Signs precede Second Coming (Luke Luke 21:11, Luke 21:15).
Focus is Lord and Church (1Th. 1Th. 4:13-18). Focus is Israel and kingdom (Mtt. Mat. 24:14).
World is deceived (2Th. 2Th. 2:3-12). Satan is bound so he cannot deceive (Rev. Rev. 20:1-2+).
Believers depart the earth (1Th. 1Th. 4:15-17). Unbelievers are taken away from the earth (Mtt. Mat. 24:37-41).
Unbelievers remain on earth. Believers remain on earth (Mtt. Mat. 25:34).
No mention of establishing Christ’s Kingdom on earth. Christ has come to set up His Kingdom on earth (Mtt. Mat. 25:31, Mat. 25:34).
Christians taken to the Father’s house (John John 14:1-3). Resurrected saints do not see the Father’s house (Rev. Rev. 20:4+).
Imminent—could happen at any moment. Cannot occur for at least 7 years.
Precedes the career of the man of sin. (2Th. 2Th. 2:1-3). Terminates the career of the man of sin (Rev. Rev. 19:20+).

 

[Major]

You want verses to prove that the second time Jesus comes to earth from heaven would be His Second Coming? Really.

NO. I would like you to tell me the source of your comment where you stated............in #51......

"When the disciples asked Jesus about His coming and the end of the world, He told them that "they shall see the sign of the Son of Man COMING in the clouds with power and glory...and He shall send forth the angels to gather His elect." Are you telling me that what Jesus described to His disciples as what would take place at His NEXT coming is not the Second Coming?"

 

[Phoneman777]

Contrasts Between the Rapture and the Second Coming
Christ comes for His own (John John 14:3; 1Th. 1Th. 5:28; ). Christ comes with His own (1Th. 1Th. 3:13; Jude Jude 1:14.
Christ comes in the air (1Th. 1Th. 4:17). Christ comes to the earth (Zec. Zec. 14:4; Acts Acts 1:11).
Christ claims His bride (1Th. 1Th. 4:16-17). Christ comes with His bride (Rev. Rev. 19:6-14+).
Removal of believers (1Th. 1Th. 4:17). Manifestation of Christ (Mal. Mal. 4:2).
Only His own see Him (1Th. 1Th. 4:13-18). Every eye shall see Him (Rev. Rev. 1:7+).
Tribulation begins (2Th. 2Th. 1:6-9). Millennial Kingdom begins (Rev. Rev. 20:1-7+).
Saved are delivered from wrath (1Th. 1Th. 1:10; 1Th. 1Th. 5:9). Unsaved experience the wrath of God (Rev. Rev. 6:12-17+).
No signs precede rapture (1Th. 1Th. 5:1-3). Signs precede Second Coming (Luke Luke 21:11, Luke 21:15).
Focus is Lord and Church (1Th. 1Th. 4:13-18). Focus is Israel and kingdom (Mtt. Mat. 24:14).
World is deceived (2Th. 2Th. 2:3-12). Satan is bound so he cannot deceive (Rev. Rev. 20:1-2+).
Believers depart the earth (1Th. 1Th. 4:15-17). Unbelievers are taken away from the earth (Mtt. Mat. 24:37-41).
Unbelievers remain on earth. Believers remain on earth (Mtt. Mat. 25:34).
No mention of establishing Christ’s Kingdom on earth. Christ has come to set up His Kingdom on earth (Mtt. Mat. 25:31, Mat. 25:34).
Christians taken to the Father’s house (John John 14:1-3). Resurrected saints do not see the Father’s house (Rev. Rev. 20:4+).
Imminent—could happen at any moment. Cannot occur for at least 7 years.
Precedes the career of the man of sin. (2Th. 2Th. 2:1-3). Terminates the career of the man of sin (Rev. Rev. 19:20+).

Look, I see that you have convinced yourself that the second coming of Jesus from heaven to earth is not His "Second Coming", that's fine, but most people are not that easily convinced as you seem to be.

 

[Major]

I have no such habit, my friend. It's what you wrote:
"You are still confusing the "Lord desending" as the 2nd Coming. He is comeing DOWN to earth BUT NOT TOUCHING the earth. He is coming for His saints in the air and that is the Rapture."

Do you not mean by this to say that the events in 1 Thess 4:16 do not describe the Second Coming b/c Jesus' feet do not touch the ground?

You said...........
".His saints should be disqualified as His Second Coming simply because He stays a few hundred feet in the air, as suggested by Major."

I did not suggest that so if that is not putting words in my mouth, what then would it be???

 

[Phoneman777]

NO. I would like you to tell me the source of your comment where you stated............in #51......

"When the disciples asked Jesus about His coming and the end of the world, He told them that "they shall see the sign of the Son of Man COMING in the clouds with power and glory...and He shall send forth the angels to gather His elect." Are you telling me that what Jesus described to His disciples as what would take place at His NEXT coming is not the Second Coming?"

FOR PETE'S SAKE, MY BROTHER, HAVE YOU NEVER READ MATTHEW 24?

 

[Phoneman777]

FOR PETE'S SAKE, MY BROTHER, HAVE YOU NEVER READ MATTHEW 24?

 

[Silk]

In post #63, Major shows a clear scriptural basis for the rapture and the 2nd coming as TWO separate events. You are welcome to disagree with a pretrib rapture, but you cannot claim there is no scriptural basis.

 

[Silk]

FOR PETE'S SAKE, MY BROTHER, HAVE YOU NEVER READ MATTHEW 24?

The Son of Man comes to gather His "elect" (Rapture). The Son of God makes the 2nd Coming.

 

[Major]

Look, I see that you have convinced yourself that the second coming of Jesus from heaven to earth is not His "Second Coming", that's fine, but most people are not that easily convinced as you seem to be.

OK. I see that you are not going to post the source of the Scriptures you quoted. You know as well as I do that I know where they came from. I lso know why you used them and I was real sure that you did not want to talk about those Scriptures.

WHY??? Because You took them out of context for one purpose and that was to try and support what you believe.

The problem is you did not use all of the verses that applied to the one you picked. Lets consider this for a moment because I think it speaks to your inability to understand the Scriptures as they are written with out what you want them to say being used.

Matthew 24:31 is where you were at which is........
"Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

What you did not post however is the preceeding verse #29 ............
"Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken."

AFTER the 7 year Tribulation Jesus comes again. Right there in front of you is what you have been denying.

The sign of His return will be marked by THE SIGN OF THE SON OF MAN IN HEAVEN which confirms Rev. 1:12 .......
"where every eye shall see Him, even those who pierced Him". The world will see HIM COMING.

Rev. 19:11-20.......
"Then I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse! The one sitting on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he judges and makes war. 12 His eyes are like a flame of fire, and on his head are many diadems, and he has a name written that no one knows but himself. 13 He is clothed in a robe dipped in blood, and the name by which he is called is The Word of God. 14 And the armies of heaven, arrayed in fine linen, white and pure, were following him on white horses. 15 From his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations, and he will rule them with a rod of iron. He will tread the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty. 16 On his robe and on his thigh he has a name written, King of kings and Lord of lords."

 

[Major]

FOR PETE'S SAKE, MY BROTHER, HAVE YOU NEVER READ MATTHEW 24?

Is it in the Bible?

 

[Major]

Look, I see that you have convinced yourself that the second coming of Jesus from heaven to earth is not His "Second Coming", that's fine,

Praise the Lord! We are in agreement! I AM CONVINCED. I have been now for about 50 years give or take a couple.

I think the idea of......"but most people are not that easily convinced" is another assumption my friend.
I am of the opinion that your theological position on this is the minority one.

 

[Silk]

Just a thought - the OT tells of the first and second coming of Christ to the world. There were many Jews who followed Christ, but those who didn't, wanted the Messiah of the 2nd coming. They never saw that there were 2 comings for the world and this has caused their trials and tribulations throughout history.

 

[HisManySongs]

This is an oft discussed topic which has, once again, reached the point of diminishing returns.

I will be closing this edition with thanks to all who participated and ask that the subject be given some time off before starting anew.