Deliverance From or Through The Tribulation?

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Because they didn't know when he was coming back. That's the point I was trying to make, people think they know and obviously some don't because all sides can't be right. The important part is too focus on him and be ready, not argue about when.

The bridegroom
Is coming be prepared
Fill your lantern
Up to the brim
Keep your eyes open
As you wait for Him
You don’t know
Hour nor the day
When He is coming
And passes your way
Should you tarry
If you are late
Not being prepared
will seal your fate
Knock as you may
Cry to come in
The invitation
Is with drawn
You will not
Be with Him


peter
 
Im saying that that one verse thought it might appear all to be of one event . Does not resolve a lot of other verses that say otherwise

Here are several verses in which I've highlighted for you the "Second Coming" and "Gathering" parts of them to show they happen simultaneously, where the coming of Jesus is the cause and the gathering of the saints is the effect:
  • 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 = "...coming of our Lord and our gathering unto Him"
  • 1 Thessalonians 4:16-18 = "For the Lord shall descend...with the trumpet of God and dead in Christ shall rise...then we shall be caught up"
  • Matthew 24:29-31 = "Immediately after the tribulation of those days...they shall see the Son of Man coming in the clouds...and He shall send His angels forth to gather His elect"
  • 1 Corinthians 15:52 = "...at the last trump (Second Coming according to bullet 2): for the trumpet shall sound and the dead shall be raised"
  • 1 Corinthians 15:23 = "But every man (shall be resurrected) in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at His coming"
I've heard most of the ideas for why the Second Coming/Gathering of the Saints is reversed and modified to be the Gathering of the Saints/Intermediate Tribulation Period/Second Coming, but I'm always interested in any additional ideas that others may have for this.
 
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GBzone's statement above exemplifies the frustration and confusion inherent with the heresy that is “rapture theory.” This is why it is imperative that we compare scripture with scripture -- avoiding all unscriptural terms e. g. "rapture."

I-d-e-n-t-i-t-y.

Due to the religious conditioning which has come to dominate most of the denominations and Christian fellowships over the last century, most believers see themselves as members of the so-called “church,” as opposed to the unique title Paul used to describe the saved in the following passage:

“For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision [being an Israelite] availeth anything, nor uncircumcision [being a Gentile], but a new creature. And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God” (Galatians 6:16).

To phrase this in the simplest language possible, the Apostle Paul is saying being Jewish is worth nothing, and being Gentile is worth nothing, because whatever you were before, in Christ you are now “a new creature,” and this new body of believers is called “the Israel of God.”

To put it bluntly, the Christians are the only saved Israel seen in the New Testament.
Praise God, what an excellent analysis of why so many have fallen victim to Jesuit Futurism: they believe the identity of New Testament Israel to be a local, Middle Eastern country of literal Israelites instead of a spiritually, worldwide body of the "Israel of God" Christendom. Without a correct understanding of our identity as the "Israel of God", any attempt to understand prophecy will unavoidably result in compounded delusion.
 
Like @adonaicole, I'm content to be wherever the Lord wants me, whenever. I don't believe that disbelieving the event of the rapture will disqualify one from it. I have already said that for most of my life, I did not see it. Translations are funny things but a greek? word harpozo is actually the root for the word rapture....http://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/greek/nas/harpazo.html... I haven't watched this particular video yet but Ice is very convincing

 
So:
  • the Lord descending with a shout
  • with the voice of the archangel
  • with the trumpet of God
  • the dead in Christ rising and ascending to Him in the air
  • the living saints ascending to Him in the air
is not to be understood as the Grand, Glorious, Brilliant, Ear-splitting, Cacophonous Second Coming of Jesus?

Brother, for ages people have referred to this as "the loudest verse in the Bible" which shall shake the entire earth at the Second Coming of Jesus, and yet you deny that this is talking about the Second Coming?

The pattern of Paul:
1 Thess 4:16-18"Lord descends/Dead and Living Saints rise to Him"
2 Thess 2:1-3 "Lord comes/saints are gathered together with Him"

BTW, did you know that Paul says in 2 Thess 2 that "the coming of the Lord and our gathering unto Him" cannot take place until AFTER the Antichrist rises?


I'm beginning to question Isaiah 35:8, my dear brother!

CORRECT! I am so glad to see that you have grasped that fact. As you know, The rapture and the second coming of Christ are often confused by many well meaning Christians. Sometimes it is difficult to determine whether a scripture verse is referring to the rapture or the second coming. However, in studying end-times Bible prophecy, it is very important to differentiate between the two.

Allow me to list the important differences between the rapture and second coming ............

1)
At the rapture, believers meet the Lord in the air (1 Thessalonians 4:17).
At the second coming, believers return with the Lord to the earth (Revelation 19:14).

2)
The second coming occurs after the great and terrible tribulation (Revelation chapters 6–19).
The rapture occurs before the tribulation (1 Thessalonians 5:9; Revelation 3:10).

3)
The rapture is the removal of believers from the earth as an act of deliverance (1 Thessalonians 4:13-17, 5:9).
The second coming includes the removal of unbelievers as an act of judgment (Matthew 24:40-41).

4)
The rapture will be secret and instant (1 Corinthians 15:50-54).
The second coming will be visible to all (Revelation 1:7; Matthew 24:29-30).

5)
The second coming of Christ will not occur until after certain other end-times events take place (2 Thessalonians 2:4; Matthew 24:15-30; Revelation chapters 6–18). The rapture is imminent; it could take place at any moment (Titus 2:13; 1 Thess. 4:13-18; 1 Corinthians 15:50-54).

Now, the thing which is of most importance and what actually makes all the difference is if the rapture and the second coming are the same event, the return of Christ is not imminent—there are many things which must occur before He can return (Matthew 24:4-30).

Rev. 3:10...........
"Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth."

So you can see that we can take comfort in knowing God will keep His promises. His wrath will be poured out in the earth, but not on His people. That is really good news! All the unrepentant sinners in the world will mourn when they see the sign of the Son of Man in the sky (Matthew 24:30) because they will know it means they are doomed, but believers will not be here to mourn with them. God’s people will be rescued in the rapture.

Now you stated that......
"BTW, did you know that Paul says in 2 Thess 2 that "the coming of the Lord and our gathering unto Him" cannot take place until AFTER the Antichrist rises?"

I do not find that to match the Scriptures my brother.
2 Thessalonians 2.7: ............
"For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way."

"HE" IMO is the Holy Spirit that actually makes up the church as HE indwells the believers.




 
So:
  • the Lord descending with a shout
  • with the voice of the archangel
  • with the trumpet of God
  • the dead in Christ rising and ascending to Him in the air
  • the living saints ascending to Him in the air
is not to be understood as the Grand, Glorious, Brilliant, Ear-splitting, Cacophonous Second Coming of Jesus?

Brother, for ages people have referred to this as "the loudest verse in the Bible" which shall shake the entire earth at the Second Coming of Jesus, and yet you deny that this is talking about the Second Coming?

The pattern of Paul:
1 Thess 4:16-18"Lord descends/Dead and Living Saints rise to Him"
2 Thess 2:1-3 "Lord comes/saints are gathered together with Him"

BTW, did you know that Paul says in 2 Thess 2 that "the coming of the Lord and our gathering unto Him" cannot take place until AFTER the Antichrist rises?


I'm beginning to question Isaiah 35:8, my dear brother!

Isaiah 35:8 is a Scripture that speaks to the Millennium or the Thousand Year Rule of Christ.

He speaks of a "highway" which he contrasts to the barren desert. That "highway" of holiness is reserved for the saved and ransomed of the Tribulation Period who shall enter into the Millennial Kingdom. They will have survived the Tribulation by their FAITH and will be CLEAN.

If you keep reading in Isaiah 35:9-10 you will see that "The ransomed of the Lord shall return and come to Zion" refers to the heavenly Jerusalem.
It is the picture of how beautiful the city will be and how the SAVED people of God will be living in peace, joy and harmony in God's kingdom.

I do not question that prophecy one little bit.
 
CORRECT! I am so glad to see that you have grasped that fact. As you know, The rapture and the second coming of Christ are often confused by many well meaning Christians. Sometimes it is difficult to determine whether a scripture verse is referring to the rapture or the second coming. However, in studying end-times Bible prophecy, it is very important to differentiate between the two.

Allow me to list the important differences between the rapture and second coming ............

1)
At the rapture, believers meet the Lord in the air (1 Thessalonians 4:17).
At the second coming, believers return with the Lord to the earth (Revelation 19:14).

2)
The second coming occurs after the great and terrible tribulation (Revelation chapters 6–19).
The rapture occurs before the tribulation (1 Thessalonians 5:9; Revelation 3:10).

3)
The rapture is the removal of believers from the earth as an act of deliverance (1 Thessalonians 4:13-17, 5:9).
The second coming includes the removal of unbelievers as an act of judgment (Matthew 24:40-41).

4)
The rapture will be secret and instant (1 Corinthians 15:50-54).
The second coming will be visible to all (Revelation 1:7; Matthew 24:29-30).

5)
The second coming of Christ will not occur until after certain other end-times events take place (2 Thessalonians 2:4; Matthew 24:15-30; Revelation chapters 6–18). The rapture is imminent; it could take place at any moment (Titus 2:13; 1 Thess. 4:13-18; 1 Corinthians 15:50-54).

Now, the thing which is of most importance and what actually makes all the difference is if the rapture and the second coming are the same event, the return of Christ is not imminent—there are many things which must occur before He can return (Matthew 24:4-30).

Rev. 3:10...........
"Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth."

So you can see that we can take comfort in knowing God will keep His promises. His wrath will be poured out in the earth, but not on His people. That is really good news! All the unrepentant sinners in the world will mourn when they see the sign of the Son of Man in the sky (Matthew 24:30) because they will know it means they are doomed, but believers will not be here to mourn with them. God’s people will be rescued in the rapture.

Now you stated that......
"BTW, did you know that Paul says in 2 Thess 2 that "the coming of the Lord and our gathering unto Him" cannot take place until AFTER the Antichrist rises?"

I do not find that to match the Scriptures my brother.
2 Thessalonians 2.7: ............
"For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way."

"HE" IMO is the Holy Spirit that actually makes up the church as HE indwells the believers.

So, if I understand you correctly, the order of events that Paul lists in 1 Thess 4:16 which are:
  1. The Lord descends in the Second Coming
  2. The dead (and living) saints are gathered up to Him
should have been listed by Paul in this way:
  1. the saints are gathered up to Him
  2. The Lord descends in the Second Coming
The $64,000 question is why didn't Paul simply do that, instead of declaring that the Lord descends first and only after the saints are raptured?
 
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Isaiah 35:8 is a Scripture that speaks to the Millennium or the Thousand Year Rule of Christ.

He speaks of a "highway" which he contrasts to the barren desert. That "highway" of holiness is reserved for the saved and ransomed of the Tribulation Period who shall enter into the Millennial Kingdom. They will have survived the Tribulation by their FAITH and will be CLEAN.

If you keep reading in Isaiah 35:9-10 you will see that "The ransomed of the Lord shall return and come to Zion" refers to the heavenly Jerusalem.
It is the picture of how beautiful the city will be and how the SAVED people of God will be living in peace, joy and harmony in God's kingdom.

I do not question that prophecy one little bit.
Yes, I am well aware to what Isaiah refers to in that passage, but thanks bro.
 
So, according to what your last post, the order of events that Paul lists in 1 Thess 4:16 which is:
  1. The Lord descends in the Second Coming
  2. The dead (and living) saints are gathered up to Him
should have been listed by Paul in this way:
  1. the saints are gathered up to Him
  2. The Lord descends in the Second Coming
The $64,000 question is why didn't Paul simply do that, if he didn't mean to teach that the Second Coming precedes the gathering of the saints?

NO. I do not agree with that idea.

Paul wrote exactly what God gave him the words to write.

In 1 Thess 4:16 you are still confusing the "Lord desending" as the 2nd Coming. He is comeing DOWN to earth BUT NOT TOUCHING the earth. He is coming for His saints in the air and that is the Rapture.

YOU are trying to force that event to be the Second Coming of Jesus and it is not.

At the Second Coming of Jesus He will stand on the earth. It really is not that hard my brother as you are trying to make it.

Zecheriah 14:1-4
Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3 Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south."
 
NO. I do not agree with that idea.

Paul wrote exactly what God gave him the words to write.

In 1 Thess 4:16 you are still confusing the "Lord desending" as the 2nd Coming. He is comeing DOWN to earth BUT NOT TOUCHING the earth. He is coming for His saints in the air and that is the Rapture.

YOU are trying to force that event to be the Second Coming of Jesus and it is not.

At the Second Coming of Jesus He will stand on the earth. It really is not that hard my brother as you are trying to make it.

Zecheriah 14:1-4
Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3 Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south."
OH, I GOT IT
 
OH, I GOT IT
NO. I do not agree with that idea.

Paul wrote exactly what God gave him the words to write.

In 1 Thess 4:16 you are still confusing the "Lord desending" as the 2nd Coming. He is comeing DOWN to earth BUT NOT TOUCHING the earth. He is coming for His saints in the air and that is the Rapture.

YOU are trying to force that event to be the Second Coming of Jesus and it is not.

At the Second Coming of Jesus He will stand on the earth. It really is not that hard my brother as you are trying to make it.

Zecheriah 14:1-4
Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3 Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south."
So, let me see if I understand you correctly:
The fact that Jesus' feet doesn't touch the ground in 1 Thess 4 disqualifies that as His Second Coming?

When the disciples asked Jesus about His coming and the end of the world, He told them that "they shall see the sign of the Son of Man COMING in the clouds with power and glory...and He shall send forth the angels to gather His elect." Are you telling me that what Jesus described to His disciples as what would take place at His NEXT coming is not the Second Coming?
 
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So, let me see if I understand you correctly:
The fact that Jesus' feet doesn't touch the ground in 1 Thess 4 disqualifies that as His Second Coming?

When the disciples asked Jesus about His coming and the end of the world, He told them that "they shall see the sign of the Son of Man COMING in the clouds with power and glory...and He shall send forth the angels to gather His elect." Are you telling me that what Jesus described to His disciples as what would take place at His NEXT coming is not the Second Coming?

SEE, you really didn't get it at all!

Would you like to post where the Scriptures are that you are drawing from???
 
NO. I do not agree with that idea.

Paul wrote exactly what God gave him the words to write.

In 1 Thess 4:16 you are still confusing the "Lord desending" as the 2nd Coming. He is comeing DOWN to earth BUT NOT TOUCHING the earth. He is coming for His saints in the air and that is the Rapture.
I'm speechless.
Do you actually believe that when Jesus makes the next BILLION + light year trip from heaven back to the Earth, we are not to call that His Second Coming because He remains a few hundred feet in the air?

Brother, listen to me very carefully:
The First Coming was to pay the sin debt, that whosoever will could be a saved saint (John 3:16)
The Second Coming is for His saints (Matthew 24:31) which return with Him to heaven for the thousand years reign where we participate in the judgment of the wicked.
The Third Coming is with His saints (1 Thess. 3:13) where Jesus moves the capitol of the universe to the Earth, resurrects, judges, condemns, and executes the wicked, and creates the new heavens and the new earth.
 
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Yay! New fonts (I want comic sans).

@Phoneman777 - What makes you think Heaven's time & space is anything like earth's time/space? "...takes a billion light years" makes no sense. Heaven is a dimension we have no access to except thru Christ. It is not "time" that causes the wait for Christ to rapture and or the second coming. The wait is about having as many as can be saved, be saved.
 
Yay! New fonts (I want comic sans).

@Phoneman777 - What makes you think Heaven's time & space is anything like earth's time/space? "...takes a billion light years" makes no sense. Heaven is a dimension we have no access to except thru Christ. It is not "time" that causes the wait for Christ to rapture and or the second coming. The wait is about having as many as can be saved, be saved.
I was referring to distance, not time or space. I don't think it's a fair assumption that Jesus' soon multi-billion mile trip from heaven to earth in order to gather His saints should be disqualified as His Second Coming simply because He stays a few hundred feet in the air, as suggested by Major. What possible basis is there in the Bible for such an assumption?
 
What makes you think Heaven's time & space is anything like earth's time/space? "...takes a billion light years" makes no sense.

Daniel 10:11-13 it took the angel/messenger 21 days, only because he was held up and had to battle the prince of persia and his minions. He says God sent the answer that day.......... short of being held up he would have recieved that day.

peter
 
I'm speechless.
Do you actually believe that when Jesus makes the next BILLION + light year trip from heaven back to the Earth, we are not to call that His Second Coming because He remains a few hundred feet in the air?

Brother, listen to me very carefully:
The First Coming was to pay the sin debt, that whosoever will could be a saved saint (John 3:16)
The Second Coming is for His saints (Matthew 24:31) which return with Him to heaven for the thousand years reign where we participate in the judgment of the wicked.
The Third Coming is with His saints (1 Thess. 3:13) where Jesus moves the capitol of the universe to the Earth, resurrects, judges, condemns, and executes the wicked, and creates the new heavens and the new earth.

CORRECT!

The Rapture will occur when Jesus Christ returns FOR his church. This is when all true believers in Christ will be taken from the earth by God into heaven (1 Corinthians 15:51-52; 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17).

The Second Coming is when Jesus Christ returns WITH the church to defeat the antichrist, overthrow evil and then establish His thousand year reign (Revelation 19:11-16).

The Rapture will happen before the Tribulation.
1 Thessalonians 5:9
Revelation 3:10

The Second Coming will happen at the end of the Tribulation.
Revelation 6-19

They are TWO separate events separated by Seven years.

By the way.......you have not posted those Scriptures you referred to in #51!!!!
 
I was referring to distance, not time or space. I don't think it's a fair assumption that Jesus' soon multi-billion mile trip from heaven to earth in order to gather His saints should be disqualified as His Second Coming simply because He stays a few hundred feet in the air, as suggested by Major. What possible basis is there in the Bible for such an assumption?

First of all....Major has and is not suggesting anything. You have a habit of putting words into others mouths my friend.

All the old Major has done is to quote Bible passages.

Secondly, where do we find that the distance is just a few hundred feet???(Isn't that an assumption?)
As far as we know it may be 10,000 miles. We just do not know.

Third. Major has assumed nothing whatsoever. Everything he says is supported by the Word of God which is the basis for all truth.

And he is still waiting for you to post the Scriptures you referred to in comment #51.
 
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CORRECT!

The Rapture will occur when Jesus Christ returns FOR his church. This is when all true believers in Christ will be taken from the earth by God into heaven (1 Corinthians 15:51-52; 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17).

The Second Coming is when Jesus Christ returns WITH the church to defeat the antichrist, overthrow evil and then establish His thousand year reign (Revelation 19:11-16).

The Rapture will happen before the Tribulation.
1 Thessalonians 5:9
Revelation 3:10

The Second Coming will happen at the end of the Tribulation.
Revelation 6-19

They are TWO separate events separated by Seven years.

By the way.......you have not posted those Scriptures you referred to in #51!!!!
Bro, on what basis do you deny that Jesus' "suspended in the clouds" coming when the saints rise is not His Second Coming?
 
Bro, on what basis do you deny that Jesus' "suspended in the clouds" coming when the saints rise is not His Second Coming?

A better question would be.......On what basis do you believe that Jesus coming in the clouds IS His Second Coming?

I have already posted a barrage of Scripture which support what I have said. Where are those which support your basis.

What about those verses from comment #51. ?????
 
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