Different Understandings And Branches Of Christianity

Status
Not open for further replies.
Steve Amato said:
Furthermore the gospel promises no salvation apart from faith in Christ. The Catholic idea of getting babies wet saves them is more along the thinking of the circumcision who made salvation a function of ceremonial works contrary to the gospel.
Click to expand...

It wasn't just a Catholic idea. Infant baptism dates back to the undivided Church, and in the various schisms it was never over that issue. The Schism of the Oriental Orthodox Church was over the Chalcedonian definition of the hypostatic union of Christ.

The East-West Schism was over the Filloque and the role of the Pope.

The Reformation was mainly about simony (selling of indulgences).

Of course I'm paraphrasing here, but none of the major issues cited in any of the schisms was about infant baptism. They only people who had a problem with it were ana-baptists, the adherents, none of whom were clergy or bishops.

Also you make this really bad assumption about "ceremony". If ceremony is so bad, why go to Church? Have weddings? Etc. There is a difference between "vain repetition" which would be like going to Church, spacing out for an hour and a half, then boasting about how you go to Church every day. But, there is nothing wrong with ceremony if you appreciate what it is for, and approach it with a sincere heart.
 
Godspell said:
Please stop being pretentious Calvin.

We're all just trying to have a discussion here.
Click to expand...
I don't consider I'm being pretentious. When I see a poster repeatedly baiting for argument, putting words in another's mouth so to speak, I will not yield to such an invitation to argument.
I don't post as often as do some others, but I do note those who bait for argument. These I will ignore as long as they maintain their argumentative mien.
 
calvin said:
I don't consider I'm being pretentious. When I see a poster repeatedly baiting for argument, putting words in another's mouth so to speak, I will not yield to such an invitation to argument.
I don't post as often as do some others, but I do note those who bait for argument. These I will ignore as long as they maintain their argumentative mien.
Click to expand...
Excuse me, but when I post a thread to explain and smooth over hard feeling from an earlier thread and state very clearly that I'm not looking for anyone to argue their doctrine, and you (and Major) show up and do that, please explain to me how this is "baiting" you exactly? It was written in very clear and straightforward English and very OBVIOUSLY was intended as a peaceful clarification. Maybe you should just stay out of my threads - much easier that way.
 
I respectfully refer you to your post #19 where you quoted my reply to another poster.
It is you who introduced Adolph Hitler to the discussion not me, nor any other person here.
That is a fact as evidenced by the posts here. It is not food for argument...it is fact.
Please stop having the appearance of one who is baiting people who don't share your ideas.
 
calvin said:
I respectfully refer you to your post #19 where you quoted my reply to another poster.
It is you who introduced Adolph Hitler to the discussion not me, nor any other person here.
That is a fact as evidenced by the posts here. It is not food for argument...it is fact.
Please stop baiting people who don't share your ideas.
Click to expand...
Perhaps you shouldn't have gotten involved when you had no knowledge of the original thread. If you ignore a simple request not to post doctrinal differences, please don't be surprised when people fight back. This is precisely what I did NOT want, but clearly you did.
 
@PeaceLikeaRiver This is a Christian forum with individuals from different background. If you know something is going to start an argument why post it for all to see? Rather have a P.M with those that wouldn't argue. Otherwise it's going to cause problems or cause others to think your starting an argument on purpose.
 
Patricia Dalmadge said:
@PeaceLikeaRiver This is a Christian forum with individuals from different background. If you know something is going to start an argument why post it for all to see? Rather have a P.M with those that wouldn't argue. Otherwise it's going to cause problems or cause others to think your starting an argument on purpose.
Click to expand...
Respectfully Patricia, you didn't see the original thread. I felt badly that my comments were misunderstood and rather than derail one thread I decided to clarify in another.
 
PeaceLikeaRiver said:
So Adolf Hitler could technically slaughter millions of people, have a deathbed conversion and accept Christ, and get into heaven? I'm seeing something terribly wrong with this picture.
Click to expand...
I know this is hypothetical, but while it's not probable, it's very possible that Hitler could have layed in his death bed and had a sincere moment of repentance. Now he may have to go through some serious purging, but if one totally submits himself to God, he may absolutely be saved. I really believe people who live despicable lives and then at the last minute have a truly honest redemption, even though it was their 11th hour, God won't turn them away. And if they honestly repent at that last moment, their thoughts wouldn't be "I got away with it," it would be "I wish I had done this before..."
 
LysanderShapiro said:
I know this is hypothetical, but while it's not probable, it's very possible that Hitler could have layed in his death bed and had a sincere moment of repentance. Now he may have to go through some serious purging, but if one totally submits himself to God, he may absolutely be saved. I really believe people who live despicable lives and then at the last minute have a truly honest redemption, even though it was their 11th hour, God won't turn them away. And if they honestly repent at that last moment, their thoughts wouldn't be "I got away with it," it would be "if only I had done this before..."
Click to expand...
I shouldn't have even posted that. I never intended this thread to turn into a doctrinal battle but I took the bait from another.
 
PeaceLikeaRiver said:
I shouldn't have even posted that. I never intended this thread to turn into a doctrinal battle but I took the bait from another.
Click to expand...
Haha, to be fair, the subject points to doctrinal differences. But I think you asked a reasonable question. We had a recent discussion about this with Judas.

I think we have reason to believe he's in hell. Christ mentioned that the son of perdition would be lost, and He called Judas exactly that. But it's a fair thing to ask.
 
LysanderShapiro said:
I know this is hypothetical, but while it's not probable, it's very possible that Hitler could have layed in his death bed and had a sincere moment of repentance. Now he may have to go through some serious purging, but if one totally submits himself to God, he may absolutely be saved. I really believe people who live despicable lives and then at the last minute have a truly honest redemption, even though it was their 11th hour, God won't turn them away. And if they honestly repent at that last moment, their thoughts wouldn't be "I got away with it," it would be "I wish I had done this before..."
Click to expand...

I completely agree. I personally don't know if Hitler's depravity could have ever been repented.

Interestingly though, notorious serial killer Jeffrey Dahmer was baptized prior to his death. His baptizer's congregation later left the church which really challenges how much people really believe in the power of the cross.
 
PeaceLikeaRiver said:
Another thread branched out into this territory earlier and I thought - wondered - if the topic can be handled tactfully and without rancor here in its own thread.

At issue was the expressions "born again" and "saved". I expressed that I didn't adhere to either expression, which led a few people to ask how it was possible to be a Christian and NOT be born again.

To clarify: There are a few ways to hear "born again". In the Bible we are told in John 3:3 that "Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." I was raised Catholic and was taught that this referred to our baptism. I understand and respect that other branches of Christianity understand this expression to mean a public declaration. So in the first sense, yes, I am born again and would say I was with no compunctions at all. But I do not do so in the second sense as I have a different Biblical understanding on the matter.

More to the point, though, and more relevant to the discussion from earlier, I would say there is a difference between being born again and calling oneself a "born again Christian". And I was making THAT distinction because while yes, I do see myself as born again, I do NOT consider myself a Born Again Christian because I'm identifying as a Christian from the Catholic end of things rather than the Evangelical end. Evangelicals in my experience call themselves Born Again Christians. The Catholics, Lutherans, Episcopalians I know, do not. That may be different in the experience of others.

To come to the expression "saved" now: This is an area a little more cut and dried, in that I think I can confidently say that it's rarer to find Catholics who call themselves "saved" for the simple reason that Catholics are not "one saved always saved" Christians because the understanding is that salvation is something that happens after we have died, not before, and so we don't pronounce ourselves saved before God has judged us.

So this is what I mean when I say that I don't consider myself a "saved" or "Born Again" Christian, although I am very much born again in my view, considering my baptism.

Now these thoughts and beliefs are central to my Christian faith, and I certainly understand that they will be disagreed upon, challenged, and held up to scrutiny. But that is not the point of this thread, so much as to clarify that there are different understandings within Christianity which many people may not be aware of.

I offer this respectfully.
Click to expand...
The differences in "Christianity" are all based on man's beliefs. If one guy doesn't like that he can't divorce his wife, he excuses away any mention of the subject from the word of God and starts his own denomination - Free Will Divorce Church. Another says they’re wrong and starts – Free Will No Divorce Church. Praying to saints church, sprinkle baptism church, keep-them-under-til-they-bubble baptism church, no-pants for women in church church, no blue hair church. No coffee church. No caffeine church. Sunday coffee church. Entertainment church. Sell books and worship God church. Tree Huggers church. Saturday only church. Sunday only church. Any-day-of-the-week church. 24/7 church. The list goes on and on. And just as ridiculous as all these sound, when you examine why you believe what you believe you’ll find there’s more ridiculousness in your own beliefs. (Speaking to everyone, including myself, not just the OP).

If everyone did their own homework, listen to the Holy Spirit, and trusted God, leaned not onto their own understanding, there wouldn’t be so much division. It takes discernment to understand that the text of the scriptures isn’t a law unto itself, but the principles behind them. The word of God is our starting basis for beliefs in Christianity otherwise you’re not a “Christian” per se but a follower of men. In fact it can be stated that we’re not really “Christians” but “Paulians” because most of what the church believes is based on Paul’s writings not Jesus’.

I was a staunch believer that Rome was the end-time religion. 9/11 changed that and the fudging needed to make Rome work stood out once I got past the paradigm belief system I had. The same as “seed” for the devil and pseudo-aliens. The biggest change is God is perfect. To blame Him for anything is beyond wrong, and shows how much an ego I have. Our problems are sin based – whether of our own doing or that of others, not God. Everyone MUST seek out wisdom for themselves; no one can impart it to where it changes you.

Information is NOT what’s needed, but heart transformation. God doesn’t give a hill of beans about behavioral modifications, He wants you to own a new heart. It’s not automatic, it take hard work and self-discipline and the Holy Spirit.
 
LysanderShapiro said:
I know this is hypothetical, but while it's not probable, it's very possible that Hitler could have layed in his death bed and had a sincere moment of repentance. Now he may have to go through some serious purging, but if one totally submits himself to God, he may absolutely be saved. I really believe people who live despicable lives and then at the last minute have a truly honest redemption, even though it was their 11th hour, God won't turn them away. And if they honestly repent at that last moment, their thoughts wouldn't be "I got away with it," it would be "I wish I had done this before..."
Click to expand...

I agree. When I take out my own personal feelings in the matter, and think about what scripture says, I think Hitler could have very much been saved. The Bible is clear that there is only 1 unforgivable sin. So if he had a truly repented then God's arm would not be too short to save.
 
Abdicate said:
The differences in "Christianity" are all based on man's beliefs.....

In fact it can be stated that we’re not really “Christians” but “Paulians” because most of what the church believes is based on Paul’s writings not Jesus’.
Click to expand...

I am not surprised with the conclusion, it is consistent with the premise: division is unwanted.

But I disagree with the premise: "division is unwanted"

NOT that am saying that "division is wanted" NO….

What am saying is what you see as “division”,,, I see as “roles”…

And different roles is a need for an organization, a body to function effectively....there is Unity in Diversity


1 Corinthians 12 New King James Version (NKJV)
Spiritual Gifts: Unity in Diversity
12 Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I do not want you to be ignorant: 2 You know that[a] you were Gentiles, carried away to these dumb idols, however you were led. 3 Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed, and no one can say that Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit.
4 There are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5 There are differences of ministries, but the same Lord. 6 And there are diversities of activities, but it is the same God who works all in all. 7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to each one for the profit of all: 8 for to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, to another the word of knowledge through the same Spirit, 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healings by the same[b] Spirit, 10 to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another discerning of spirits, to another different kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues. 11 But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually as He wills.
Unity and Diversity in One Body
12 For as the body is one and has many members, but all the members of that one body, being many, are one body, so also is Christ. 13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and have all been made to drink into[c] one Spirit. 14 For in fact the body is not one member but many.
15 If the foot should say, “Because I am not a hand, I am not of the body,” is it therefore not of the body? 16 And if the ear should say, “Because I am not an eye, I am not of the body,” is it therefore not of the body? 17 If the whole body were an eye, where would be the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where would be the smelling? 18 But now God has set the members, each one of them, in the body just as He pleased. 19 And if they were all one member, where would the body be?
20 But now indeed there are many members, yet one body. 21 And the eye cannot say to the hand, “I have no need of you”; nor again the head to the feet, “I have no need of you.” 22 No, much rather, those members of the body which seem to be weaker are necessary. 23 And those members of the body which we think to be less honorable, on these we bestow greater honor; and our unpresentable parts have greater modesty, 24 but our presentable parts have no need. But God composed the body, having given greater honor to that part which lacks it, 25 that there should be no schism in the body, but that the members should have the same care for one another. 26 And if one member suffers, all the members suffer with it; or if one member is honored, all the members rejoice with it.
27 Now you are the body of Christ, and members individually. 28 And God has appointed these in the church: first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, varieties of tongues. 29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Are all workers of miracles? 30 Do all have gifts of healings? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret? 31 But earnestly desire the best[d] gifts. And yet I show you a more excellent way.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top