Do you believe in the 4 Christian baptisms?

[Panda]

Okay, I can accept this. Could you be more specific, please?
P.S. The cults you mention will ever be involved in the baptism with the Holy Spirit
because they're non-Christian ... they don't believe a 2-Person Godhead, let alone a 3.
Jesus Christ came in the flesh (1 John 4:1-3).

I'm not specifically referring to your beliefs as connected to a cult. Sorry if I came across that way. It's more the way you present your information. It's very similar to the type of argument that these cults like to set up. It's typed in a way that I kinda want to agree with. It's similar to what we already believe. But it is JUST far enough off that I keep expecting a logic trap. It's quite confrontational in nature. I can't say that it's wrong, but the connections you are making are kinda weak, or at least, not obvious because the verses that you use to make your chart are pretty wide spread and often out of context. That doesn't necessarily make them wrong, but it doesn't prove anything definitive.

Next, when people question what you believe is absolute and vital, you are kind of rude in response. I think this may just be a miscommunication due to the nature of the Internet, but that is how it reads. Remember, I know many of these posters already. I know what motivates them and where their hearts are. I don't know you. They don't know you. So trust has to be established before presenting a true argument.

This really reads like "If you don't believe in the 4 Baptisms as I have outlined them, then you are deceived/a sinner/going to Hell/etc..." I don't THINK that is your intent, but that's how it reads. It feels like a straw-man argument that is being presented. Using the straw-man argument, a person is able to set up a facsimile of another's beliefs, altered only slightly. Then attack the facsimile and tear it apart. That's what this topic feels like. Your other topic feels even more like that, and perhaps that is why this topic takes on such a suspicious feel.

Above all, we must always remember that we teach for love. When love stops being our motive and we just wanna be "right", then we are already wrong. Motives are important, and we don't know yours yet.

 

[John Zain]

Banarenth,
My motives are only to teach what I believe to be true.
Because many Christians are woefully uneducated, misinformed, etc.
Of course, some info I know to be true has been revealed to me.
As is the case with all Christians.
Do we all get the same revelations? Are they all as deep as others?
So, I'm only here to teach, and perhaps learn something new.
I do apologize if my approach seems to be rather hard.

 

[Major]

There is one Lord, one faith, one baptism (not water). Holy Spirit baptism is received at the precise moment of salvation. If the plain sense makes sense seek no other sense.

The presentation by John Zain of scripture passages is an outstanding example of the theology of Benny Hinn, Kenneth & Gloria Copeland, Mike Murdock, and about 20 others on "Christian" TV today. The "name it and claim it," "word-faith," and televised "healings" are supreme examples of misunderstood and misapplied doctrine. The idea that those abilities granted to the 12 plus the 70 and in a far lesser case to the Apostle Paul are available to us today is heresy. These spokespersons for THEIR gospel don't have a clue about rightly dividing scripture, much to the detriment of humankind.

Excellant observation and I agree with you.

 

[Major]

Actually, I would like to see more of the fruit of the Spirit in this thread. I'm not looking for a chart though, I would like to see them displayed by the participants, particularly love, peace, kindness, gentleness, and self-control.

This thread reminds me of my psychology classes in college. Jung had his X-number of stages of adolescence, Freud had his Y-number of stages, and we studied some others that had their A, B, and C-numbers. They were looking at the same phenomena, but each characterized them differently. I'm wondering if that isn't part of what is fueling some of disagreement on this particular subject.

Agreed!

 

[John Zain]

"The idea that those abilities granted to the 12 plus the 70 and in a far lesser case to the Apostle Paul are available to us today is heresy." (Dok)

Okay, would you guys like to explain what has been going on around the world for years now?
I'm referring to the thousands of miracles occuring on the mission field each day
when evangelists are praying for said miracles "in the mighty name of Jesus"?
Your explanations should be quite interesting, if not incredibly disheartening.

 

[Major]

Have you understood the chart in Post #6?

Your last sentence has 2 errors:
1) Most people do not receive this baptism at the time of salvation.
Proof: they do not experience the manifestations in the chart.
2) We are to pursue the gifts of the Spirit (1 Cor 12), but they are only
available (in any major degree) to those baptised with the Holy Spirit.
Half of them are obviously not available to others at all.

Of course, I can't really prove much of this to you ... I can just point you to the verses.
.

Really??? Well lets do that my friend.

Baptism in the Holy Spirit is defined as: at the moment of salvation, the Holy Spirit places a believer into permanent union with Christ and with other believers in the Body of Christ.
1 Corinthians 12:13 and Romans 6:1-4 are the central passages in the Bible where we find this doctrine.

1 Corinthians 12:13 states.........
"For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body-whether Jews or Greeks, slave or free-and we were all given the one Spirit to drink." Romans 6:1-4 says, "What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life."

Paul is dealing with a situation where the Corinthian church was splitting into factions over the issue of spiritual gifts. Overemphasis on certain spectacular gifts had led to the attitude that some people had the most desirable gifts, while others had none.

You commented that you were here to teach. Are you then able to be taught my friend???

Consider the CONTEXT of 1 Corth. 12:13.

What was Pauls main point? All believers share the reality of being baptized by the Spirit.

What does it do? It makes us part of the body of Christ, the Church.

When did it happen? ******* If every believer has been baptized in the Spirit, then it must happen at the moment you accept Christ and become a Christian.********

Great Christians down through the years have often experienced dramatic encounters with God after salvation. There is no reason to deny that this is a genuine way that God works with His people. It is also true that equally devout, effective Christians have gone through life without such a “second work” of grace.

We may use whatever words we want to describe our experiences with God. But it is most accurate to say that the Bible uses "baptism of the Spirit" to refer to one of the wonderful things that God does for us the instant we trust Christ and enter His family!

 

[Major]

"The idea that those abilities granted to the 12 plus the 70 and in a far lesser case to the Apostle Paul are available to us today is heresy." (Dok)

Okay, would you guys like to explain what has been going on around the world for years now?
I'm referring to the thousands of miracles occuring on the mission field each day
when evangelists are praying for said miracles "in the mighty name of Jesus"?
Your explanations should be quite interesting, if not incredibly disheartening.

That would of course depend on WHAT we define a miracle as wouldn't it?

I have in fact been on the mission field my friend. To Africa, Hati, Columbia, Vietnam. I have seen many things. Now let me tell you that between the stories of "miracles" on the mission field to the realities of life is a long, long way. The fish we caught that was 50 pounds, always gets smaler as we get closer to the river bank my friend. Things and stories always get exergerated as one tries to out do another in explaining the wonders of God to THEM.

In fact, Just a couple of years ago, a saint of God in Hati told her testimony to a prayer meeting. It seems that an evangelist prayed for her tooth pain to be healed. The next morning she woke up and the tooth that was the problem had been pulled, and it had been replaced by a GOLD tooth. Of course the evangelist was praised and God was glorified. BUT is that what happened?????
No! I personally spoke with the dentist that pulled the bad tooth and he replaced it with a new tooth. The lady had passed out from the pain, and he ministered to her but before he could tell her what happened, she left and now you know the rest of the story.

Personally I define a miracle as the work of God in ME. I, who was a black hearted sinner and on my way to a devils hell was called by God and through His grace was saved. THAT is a miracle to me.

Holding the hand of a dieing saint who while takeing their last breath, thanks God for their life is a miracle to me.

Seeing the birth of my children is a miracle to me.

Seeing men who should be dead, survive and live on to the glory of God is a miracle to me.

Seeing my son survive a terrible head injury was a miracle to me.

Now, of all the things I have seen and experienced, how many do I have to explain.

NONE! ZERO! NADA! ZELCH!.

 

[John Zain]

Major (______) ...
Your smallest mistake was in mis-spelling the word "zilch".
Your biggest mistake was not reading Post #1 for the meaning of the verses you quoted.
Next up ...

 

[Major]

Major (______) ...
Your smallest mistake was in mis-spelling the word "zilch".
Your biggest mistake was not reading Post #1 for the meaning of the verses you quoted.
Next up ...

The only way a mistake could be rendered to Post #1, is that I believed it to be Biblical and factual. It is YOUR chart my friend not mine therfore it is irrevalant to me.

As for the spelling...............let me know when we are having a spelling contest and I will spell check everything then.

Bararenth said it best in his quote to you and I agree with him...........
"it feels like a straw-man argument that is being presented. Using the straw-man argument, a person is able to set up a facsimile of another's beliefs, altered only slightly. Then attack the facsimile and tear it apart. That's what this topic feels like. Your other topic feels even more like that, and perhaps that is why this topic takes on such a suspicious feel".

(PS, I din not post any verses in post #27 my friend)

 

[John Zain]

(PS, I din not post any verses in post #27 my friend)

Correct, I was referring to your post# 26.
Your 1 Corinthians 1213 is explained in my baptism #1.
Your Romans 6:3-4 is explained in my baptism #2.

 

[forgivenWretch]

Correct, I was referring to your post# 26.

our 1 orinthians 1213 is explained in my baptism #1.

Your Romans 6:3-4 is explained in my baptism #2.

Is this so small because it can not be stood behind?

 

[Major]

I'm not specifically referring to your beliefs as connected to a cult. Sorry if I came across that way. It's more the way you present your information. It's very similar to the type of argument that these cults like to set up. It's typed in a way that I kinda want to agree with. It's similar to what we already believe. But it is JUST far enough off that I keep expecting a logic trap. It's quite confrontational in nature. I can't say that it's wrong, but the connections you are making are kinda weak, or at least, not obvious because the verses that you use to make your chart are pretty wide spread and often out of context. That doesn't necessarily make them wrong, but it doesn't prove anything definitive.

Next, when people question what you believe is absolute and vital, you are kind of rude in response. I think this may just be a miscommunication due to the nature of the Internet, but that is how it reads. Remember, I know many of these posters already. I know what motivates them and where their hearts are. I don't know you. They don't know you. So trust has to be established before presenting a true argument.

This really reads like "If you don't believe in the 4 Baptisms as I have outlined them, then you are deceived/a sinner/going to Hell/etc..." I don't THINK that is your intent, but that's how it reads. It feels like a straw-man argument that is being presented. Using the straw-man argument, a person is able to set up a facsimile of another's beliefs, altered only slightly. Then attack the facsimile and tear it apart. That's what this topic feels like. Your other topic feels even more like that, and perhaps that is why this topic takes on such a suspicious feel.

Above all, we must always remember that we teach for love. When love stops being our motive and we just wanna be "right", then we are already wrong. Motives are important, and we don't know yours yet.

My good friend "Baraneth" may not be saying that your beliefs are connected to a cult.......but I am!

You are very obviously trying to expound the Penacostal Oneness theology which is in most all definitions a "cult"...IMHO. Yes I know there will be a confrontational posting over that, but I none the less stand by that statement.

You will find that on this site, the members are far more educated and enlightened Biblically than the average church gathering therefore are aware of your intentions and efforts.