Doctrinal Authority

[JohnC]

He also referred back to scripture and said if nobody believed what Moses wrote they would not believe Him.

You know... It's pretty amazing how as the church - we gloss right over this isn't it...
"If they won't hear Moses and the Prophets - neither will they hear one who is raised from the dead"

And yet, how many Christians absolutely refuse to have anything to do with Moses and the Prophets....

 

[KingJ]

From my observations in life and recently right here on the website I have seen the Christian Community take a step away from Biblical authority. Sometimes it is consciously and sometimes it is subconsciously, but always tragically.

A great number of people have slowly moved away from the historic positions concerning the nature of the Scriptures. Big or small, deliberate or not, when anyone takes such a step they court disaster in their lives.
That kind of step will result in a loss of mission, loss of evangelistic zeal, theological defection leading to more of an emphasis on the material and temporary rather than the eternal.

The basic problem IMO that we face today has nothing to do with knowledge and truth. It is not the quantity of truth that is being debated, but the SOURCE of that truth.

Philosophically, what I am referring to is called the study of "Epistemology". That means how we know what we know and how do we now what is true. That seems to be the basic contention between people on ALL Christian web site. EVERYBODY is right!!!!

Just follow any thread on a Bible subject and every single person that contributes to is RIGHT in his own mind. One person says.....we must keep the Law to stay saved. Another person say that we do not have to keep the Law to stay saved. One person says that we MUST BE BAPTIZED in order to be saved. The other person says no, water baptism does not save. The list goes on and on and I am sure that if you are reading these words you are agreeing with what I just said.

Now, how can everyone be right????? How can we analyze competing claims to the truth?

There are 3 basic possibilities to explain this situation:

1. Human Reason or "Rationalism".
2. Ecclesiastical Authority.
3. Divine revelation.

#1...Rationalism is the idea that truth can be determined by experimentation, by our senses, by our observation of phenomena and what we want to happen. What happens in this understanding is classic.
Whether we believe that REAL truth is a product of what goes on in our OWN minds instinctively or whether it is something placed into our minds by what someone else tells us or what we see , it still comes down to a matter of one's own personal mind, reason and experiences as being the ultimate determination of what the truth is.

#2....Ecclesiastical Authority, is not as confusing and is easier to handle. This in effect says that my church is the ultimate authority. No matter what I think is right or wrong, if the church says it is right then it is right for me. There are several examples of this with us today and I see no reason to list any as there are many.
The faithful within the church are supposed to receive the dogma of the church as being of God. That leads to the position of the Scriptures becoming subservient to the denomination teaching of any given doctrine.

So, ultimately, what is truth, or what is right or wrong is determined by man or men who the church has officially determined through it pronouncements and guidelines.

#3.....Divine Revelation. This means specifically the Word of God as we find written in the Scriptures.

Martin Luther said......"My conscience is captive to the Word of God".
That means that when I think one thing but the Bible says something else, the Bible is right and I am wrong and I am the one who needs to change my thinking.

Anytime a person says, "I do not believe the Bible is correct on this point", that person is operating from the basis of RATIONALISM or ECCESIASTICAL AUTHORITY.

Folks......we cannot correct something unless we have something which is more accurate, more true, more authoritative than the thing which we are trying to correct. So then........from now on, when you see anyone that says he finds any flaw or untruth in Scripture, or when he is shown by that same Scripture his error and he rejects it........that person is then by his own statement saying that HE has a higher basis for the truth than the Scriptures, and presumably it is HIM/HER.

This all means simply this: The mind of modern man has convinced himself that his thoughts and ways are better than those of God's Word.

I am interested in what you think and I hope you will respond.

My two cents is that nobody who professes to be a Christian has an excuse for missing the last instruction to us in Rev 22:19-23 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

Piece that with 2 Tim 3:16 All Scripture is God-breathed and 1 Cor 11:31 For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged and I believe we can draw the painfully simple full picture on the subject...namely that only scripture corrects scripture / we should all be open to correction from scripture and actively judge ourselves on our belief.

If I believe scripture X and you believe scripture Y, we need to both concede to believing X and Y. Our belief cannot ignore / not deal with any scripture / we cannot write any scripture off!

I do like how scripture is physical proof that God took the time to speak to us in our / human vocabulary. We '''neeeeeeed'' to grasp that properly. God is not a confused individual. We cannot accuse God of anything evil if He says in His word that He is good. He does not lie. Now as a safe rule of thumb we need to read the contentious scripture (OT, future and Rom 9) in light of who God is. Almost ''blindly'' believing / giving God the benefit of the doubt. Example: We can forgive Calvinists for believing as they do as God is omniscient, omnipotent and Rom 9 is written....but we need to add the rest of scripture like John 3:16 ''Jesus died for everyone = everyone''. Because ultimately we just can't put God in any box but the one He puts Himself in in scripture like John 3:16 and Psalm 136:1 because of Job 9:3 Though they wished to dispute with him, they could not answer him one time out of a thousand.

 

[Fadingman]

The Corinthian believers had this problem where they were divided into theological groups that focused on the teachings of individual apostles and teachers ("I am Paul. I am of Apollos. I am of Cephas..."). They set one teacher against another, even though those teachers were really in agreement with each other. Paul did not contradict Peter, James or John, and vice versa. But by focusing on the teachings of one, their theology was incomplete, resulting in false dichotomies and divisions.

The teachings of the succeeding church fathers are not authoritative like the writings of the apostles in the New Testament, but if believers divided over the apostles teachings, they will certainly divided over the teachings of those who came afterward (including Calvin, Luther, and modern day teachers).

"Eat the meat and throw out the bones." ...but you need to be able to distinguish between bones and meat. The solution is to test all teachings by the whole of scripture, and not to blindly accept what someone says just because he speaks authoritatively and quotes a lot of scripture. The church was even to test what the apostles said against what God said in the Bible (Acts 17:11).

The test requires both the scriptures AND the Holy Spirit together. To rely on the Spirit alone without the scriptures (when the scriptures are available) is dangerous (1 John 4:1). How do you know if it is really the Holy Spirit leading you to a particular understanding? The Holy Spirit will not contradict the Bible.

The way I see it, none of us have perfect understanding of the scriptures. My current state of understanding includes not only missing pieces of doctrine, but wrong pieces of doctrine. And those wrong pieces do not identify themselves as such. So, I seek to remain open to correction whenever I read and study my Bible. But the final authority is the whole of scripture enlightened by the Holy Spirit.

 

[Steven Eubanks]

I have a Pastor friend that says " If you only believe the scripture YOU LIKE you are serving yourself not GOD or CHRIST!

 

[AlephBet]

A great number of people have slowly moved away from the historic positions concerning the nature of the Scriptures. Big or small, deliberate or not, when anyone takes such a step they court disaster in their lives.
That kind of step will result in a loss of mission, loss of evangelistic zeal, theological defection leading to more of an emphasis on the material and temporary rather than the eternal.
This all means simply this: The mind of modern man has convinced himself that his thoughts and ways are better than those of God's Word.

I am interested in what you think and I hope you will respond.

The problem, as you say, is not the Word, but our reasoning of it. Primarily, our reasoning of scripture is founded on theology. Theology is itself the same pride you mention above. This IS the problem, yet it is also the answer. The entire point of the Bible is missed by most people because of fear. Fear dares not challenge authority. Given what we are told our presuppositions should be, we blindly obey and continually hit contradiction and cognitive dissonance.

Let me give you an example: We are told to believe that Jesus IS God, with no others beside. We are told that Adonay Yahweh is the same as Adonai Jesus, the risen Christ. When we pray, "Lord save us," there is no distinction in our mind regarding who we pray to for this salvation. This poses many problems. The names have been washed out of scripture, so when we read LORD in the OT, we assume this is Lord of the NT. When we read God throughout the Bible, we do not realize the difference between God the Father (ELOHIM) and Jesus. If we forget theology and the presuppositions we are told to cling to, we can then simply read what the word actually says.

1 Corinthians 15 - 28 But when God puts everything under Christ’s authority, the Son will put himself under God’s authority, since God had put everything under the Son’s authority. Then God will be in control of everything.

Is Jesus the Father? Theology Jesus IS God. No, he is the Son of God.

Genesis 1. In the Beginning, ELOHIM! Ruach Elohim over the waters. Genesis 1:26. Let US make man in OUR image. Man and human in Genesis 1 is ALWAYS the name Adam. Did you know this? You didn't, because they did not translate it as it was from the Hebrew. Again, they changed the names on purpose. You must work from this first foundation: the nations ARE deceived. When? In the book of Revelation, where we meet ourselves at the end of the story. We WERE deceived can be implied. By who?

Here again, we are told that Satan is our primary enemy and all evil is due to him. What is the truth?

Genesis 3

3 The snake was more clever than all the wild animals Yahweh Elohim had made.

If you believe theology, then you must conclude that Lord Jesus made Satan. All is blamed on Satan, but have we stopped to ask the question, "WHY was he made?" For what purpose did Yahweh make Satan, and who is the destroyer of nations named Yahweh? Do you see how your self-righteousness just kicked in? How dare I call the Lord a self-righteous killer, desiring to make war on Heaven. WHAT! Is your heart now pounding, wanting to now cast stones my direction? How dare I say Yahweh will make war on heaven so he can rule from Earth for all eternity. "What" you say. This is not true. Is it?

Isaiah 24

21 On that day Yahweh will punish heaven’s armies in heaven
and earth’s kings on earth.
22 They’ll be gathered like prisoners in a jail
and locked in prison.
After a long time they’ll be punished.
23 The moon will be embarrassed.
The sun will be ashamed,
because Yahweh Tsebaoth will rule
on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem.
He will be glorious
in the presence of his respected leaders.

Again, presuppositions are founded on theology and not what your fear keeps you from reading. This IS the deception to overcome. Jesus said, "DO NOT FEAR." He also said this:

John 8:44

You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

Theology (and Revelation) calls the Snake, that serpent of old, the devil and Satan. You already know who made the Devil. Who is the father of the devil? Who shed the blood of Adam, naked as he was (lacking knowledge of good and evil)? That was Yahweh, taking the rib to divide the image Elohim had created. Theology has not told you this, yet it is right there in the Names of God Bible and in your own Bible if you read and remove your fear of the Accuser / Adversary. This IS what we are to overcome--Judgment.

If you are wanting to know why people are confused and confounded, it is for one reason. We have not overcome our enemy by being clothed in knowledge / Love and peace. Before you crucify me, know the truth.

Yahweh is the ruling mind of Adam. Adam fell. Satan is the accuser, the conscience of Adam. For all of us, we each have this self-righteous adversary and accuser. They shed blood and cause us to continue this practice. We must overcome, just as Jesus did and Just as Yahweh did.

Zachariah 3

3 Then he showed me Joshua, the chief priest, standing in front of the Messenger of Yahweh. Satan the Accuser was standing at Joshua’s right side to accuse him. 2 Yahweh said to Satan, “I, Yahweh, silence you, Satan! I, Yahweh, who has chosen Jerusalem, silence you! Isn’t this man like a burning log snatched from a fire?”

3 Joshua was wearing filthy clothes and was standing in front of the Messenger. 4 The Messenger said to those who were standing in front of him, “Remove Joshua’s filthy clothes.” Then he said to Joshua, “See, I have taken your sin away from you, and I will dress you in fine clothing.”

Yahweh silenced Satan, the clothed Joshua / Yeshua the high priest. Just as you must be born again, so must Jesus be fully human. The temple foundation was set in place by Joshua. It was then torn down by Elohim for this verse:

Genesis 9

6 Whoever sheds human blood,
by humans his blood will be shed,
because in his image, Elohim made humans.

Elohim stated this and not Yahweh. The Father said what would happen if Adam allowed his Self-righteous mind to rule mankind. By this, we are all given the truth in like manner. Satan was made by this selfish animal nature to judge. Did Yahweh Judge? Was Jesus a peacemaker, forgiving enemies? Theology cannot answer this for you. I just did.

You can judge me all you want, but you are giving in to the pride of your enemy. Instead, Overcome with love. War is Yahweh's department against the Satan he made.

This is the problem we face. Read the Word and let it speak the names clearly. By this, you recognize the NAME above all others, including that of Yahweh / Satan. By this truth, you are set free from the accuser.

I do not fear this enemy. Jesus overcame this enemy when telling Satan where to go at his temptation in the desert. It was the same message Yahweh told Satan. Who made Satan? Lord Jesus? No, Yahweh (self-righteousness) made Satan (need for accusation). The fallen mind of the Son of God is raised by the Father, just as Jesus stated. He spoke the word of the Father and not his own. So must we look back and find the words of the Father from scripture. Genesis 1 is the place to start with the Names of God Bible. Deny the pride of theology.

 

[Rezz]

When we read God throughout the Bible, we do not realize the difference between God the Father (ELOHIM) and Jesus.

AlephBet, John 10:30 - 38 is one of the many scriptures that explains to us that Jesus and God are one. John 10:38 "But if I do what my Father does, you should believe in what I do. You might not believe in what I do. You might not believe in me, but you should believe in the things I do. Then you will know and understand that the Father is in me and I am in the Father."

Is Jesus the Father? Theology Jesus IS God. No, he is the Son of God.

John 10:30 - 38

Here again, we are told that Satan is our primary enemy and all evil is due to him. What is the truth?

Satan is a liar and a deceiver. John 8:44 and 2 Corinthians 11:3 back this. Why would we need to put on the full armor of God to stand firm against the schemes of the devil (Ephesians 6:11) if he wasn't evil and specifically called out in the bible?!

If you believe theology, then you must conclude that Lord Jesus made Satan. All is blamed on Satan, but have we stopped to ask the question, "WHY was he made?" For what purpose did Yahweh make Satan, and who is the destroyer of nations named Yahweh? Do you see how your self-righteousness just kicked in? How dare I call the Lord a self-righteous killer, desiring to make war on Heaven. WHAT! Is your heart now pounding, wanting to now cast stones my direction? How dare I say Yahweh will make war on heaven so he can rule from Earth for all eternity. "What" you say. This is not true. Is it?

This is the problem we face. Read the Word and let it speak the names clearly. By this, you recognize the NAME above all others, including that of Yahweh / Satan. By this truth, you are set free from the accuser.

Are you putting Satan on the same level as God? You do know that God is the victor over Satan which is prophesied in Revelations, right? Revelation 20:3

I do not fear this enemy. Jesus overcame this enemy when telling Satan where to go at his temptation in the desert. It was the same message Yahweh told Satan. Who made Satan? Lord Jesus? No, Yahweh (self-righteousness) made Satan (need for accusation). The fallen mind of the Son of God is raised by the Father, just as Jesus stated. He spoke the word of the Father and not his own. So must we look back and find the words of the Father from scripture. Genesis 1 is the place to start with the Names of God Bible. Deny the pride of theology.

Are you blaspheming God here? God is righteous, not self righteous (ego) as humans are.

 

[Major]

The problem, as you say, is not the Word, but our reasoning of it. Primarily, our reasoning of scripture is founded on theology. Theology is itself the same pride you mention above. This IS the problem, yet it is also the answer. The entire point of the Bible is missed by most people because of fear. Fear dares not challenge authority. Given what we are told our presuppositions should be, we blindly obey and continually hit contradiction and cognitive dissonance.

Let me give you an example: We are told to believe that Jesus IS God, with no others beside. We are told that Adonay Yahweh is the same as Adonai Jesus, the risen Christ. When we pray, "Lord save us," there is no distinction in our mind regarding who we pray to for this salvation. This poses many problems. The names have been washed out of scripture, so when we read LORD in the OT, we assume this is Lord of the NT. When we read God throughout the Bible, we do not realize the difference between God the Father (ELOHIM) and Jesus. If we forget theology and the presuppositions we are told to cling to, we can then simply read what the word actually says.

1 Corinthians 15 - 28 But when God puts everything under Christ’s authority, the Son will put himself under God’s authority, since God had put everything under the Son’s authority. Then God will be in control of everything.

Is Jesus the Father? Theology Jesus IS God. No, he is the Son of God.

Genesis 1. In the Beginning, ELOHIM! Ruach Elohim over the waters. Genesis 1:26. Let US make man in OUR image. Man and human in Genesis 1 is ALWAYS the name Adam. Did you know this? You didn't, because they did not translate it as it was from the Hebrew. Again, they changed the names on purpose. You must work from this first foundation: the nations ARE deceived. When? In the book of Revelation, where we meet ourselves at the end of the story. We WERE deceived can be implied. By who?

Here again, we are told that Satan is our primary enemy and all evil is due to him. What is the truth?

Genesis 3

3 The snake was more clever than all the wild animals Yahweh Elohim had made.

If you believe theology, then you must conclude that Lord Jesus made Satan. All is blamed on Satan, but have we stopped to ask the question, "WHY was he made?" For what purpose did Yahweh make Satan, and who is the destroyer of nations named Yahweh? Do you see how your self-righteousness just kicked in? How dare I call the Lord a self-righteous killer, desiring to make war on Heaven. WHAT! Is your heart now pounding, wanting to now cast stones my direction? How dare I say Yahweh will make war on heaven so he can rule from Earth for all eternity. "What" you say. This is not true. Is it?

Isaiah 24

21 On that day Yahweh will punish heaven’s armies in heaven
and earth’s kings on earth.
22 They’ll be gathered like prisoners in a jail
and locked in prison.
After a long time they’ll be punished.
23 The moon will be embarrassed.
The sun will be ashamed,
because Yahweh Tsebaoth will rule
on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem.
He will be glorious
in the presence of his respected leaders.

Again, presuppositions are founded on theology and not what your fear keeps you from reading. This IS the deception to overcome. Jesus said, "DO NOT FEAR." He also said this:

John 8:44

You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

Theology (and Revelation) calls the Snake, that serpent of old, the devil and Satan. You already know who made the Devil. Who is the father of the devil? Who shed the blood of Adam, naked as he was (lacking knowledge of good and evil)? That was Yahweh, taking the rib to divide the image Elohim had created. Theology has not told you this, yet it is right there in the Names of God Bible and in your own Bible if you read and remove your fear of the Accuser / Adversary. This IS what we are to overcome--Judgment.

If you are wanting to know why people are confused and confounded, it is for one reason. We have not overcome our enemy by being clothed in knowledge / Love and peace. Before you crucify me, know the truth.

Yahweh is the ruling mind of Adam. Adam fell. Satan is the accuser, the conscience of Adam. For all of us, we each have this self-righteous adversary and accuser. They shed blood and cause us to continue this practice. We must overcome, just as Jesus did and Just as Yahweh did.

Zachariah 3

3 Then he showed me Joshua, the chief priest, standing in front of the Messenger of Yahweh. Satan the Accuser was standing at Joshua’s right side to accuse him. 2 Yahweh said to Satan, “I, Yahweh, silence you, Satan! I, Yahweh, who has chosen Jerusalem, silence you! Isn’t this man like a burning log snatched from a fire?”

3 Joshua was wearing filthy clothes and was standing in front of the Messenger. 4 The Messenger said to those who were standing in front of him, “Remove Joshua’s filthy clothes.” Then he said to Joshua, “See, I have taken your sin away from you, and I will dress you in fine clothing.”

Yahweh silenced Satan, the clothed Joshua / Yeshua the high priest. Just as you must be born again, so must Jesus be fully human. The temple foundation was set in place by Joshua. It was then torn down by Elohim for this verse:

Genesis 9

6 Whoever sheds human blood,
by humans his blood will be shed,
because in his image, Elohim made humans.

Elohim stated this and not Yahweh. The Father said what would happen if Adam allowed his Self-righteous mind to rule mankind. By this, we are all given the truth in like manner. Satan was made by this selfish animal nature to judge. Did Yahweh Judge? Was Jesus a peacemaker, forgiving enemies? Theology cannot answer this for you. I just did.

You can judge me all you want, but you are giving in to the pride of your enemy. Instead, Overcome with love. War is Yahweh's department against the Satan he made.

This is the problem we face. Read the Word and let it speak the names clearly. By this, you recognize the NAME above all others, including that of Yahweh / Satan. By this truth, you are set free from the accuser.

I do not fear this enemy. Jesus overcame this enemy when telling Satan where to go at his temptation in the desert. It was the same message Yahweh told Satan. Who made Satan? Lord Jesus? No, Yahweh (self-righteousness) made Satan (need for accusation). The fallen mind of the Son of God is raised by the Father, just as Jesus stated. He spoke the word of the Father and not his own. So must we look back and find the words of the Father from scripture. Genesis 1 is the place to start with the Names of God Bible. Deny the pride of theology.

Now I am no expert on this and never claimed to be. However it seems to me that you are teaching Mormonism or are very close to it.

The belief that God the Father is called Elohim and Jesus is called Jehovah does not agree with what the Bible says. In actuality, in Hebrew the word for "God" is the word "elohim." Likewise, the word for the name of God (elohim) is "Jehovah." In the Bible, when the word "Jehovah" appears in the Hebrew text, it is rendered as LORD (all caps) in the English text. Also, the Hebrew word "elohim" is translated as "God."

Mormon theology has erringly named God the Father as "Elohim."
" . . . God the Eternal Father, whom we designate the by the exalted name-title "Elohim," is the literal Parent of our Lord and savior Jesus Christ, and of the spirits of the human race."
(Articles of Faith, by James Talmage, Desert Book Company, Salt Lake City, Utah. 1985, p. 421).

However......that is different from what the Scriptures actually do say.

Isaiah 43:10-11 tell us clearly that.......
"Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me".

Do you understand the importance of this verse????? This verse is important because if you read what it is saying, it states that Jehovah (LORD also known to the Mormons as Jesus) is stating that there will be no God (elohim) formed after him. But this is a problem for the Mormons since it could not be saying that Jehovah is the only elohim. In other words, this verse is stating that the LORD (Jehovah), is elohim.

Then we all know what John 1:3 says.........
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made."

 

[Major]

I have a Pastor friend that says " If you only believe the scripture YOU LIKE you are serving yourself not GOD or CHRIST!

Amen to that!

A lot of people call that "Cafeteria Christianity".

Take what you like and can do.........leave the rest that you do not like or do not want to do.

 

[GBzone]

From my observations in life and recently right here on the website I have seen the Christian Community take a step away from Biblical authority. Sometimes it is consciously and sometimes it is subconsciously, but always tragically.

A great number of people have slowly moved away from the historic positions concerning the nature of the Scriptures. Big or small, deliberate or not, when anyone takes such a step they court disaster in their lives.
That kind of step will result in a loss of mission, loss of evangelistic zeal, theological defection leading to more of an emphasis on the material and temporary rather than the eternal.

The basic problem IMO that we face today has nothing to do with knowledge and truth. It is not the quantity of truth that is being debated, but the SOURCE of that truth.

Philosophically, what I am referring to is called the study of "Epistemology". That means how we know what we know and how do we now what is true. That seems to be the basic contention between people on ALL Christian web site. EVERYBODY is right!!!!

Just follow any thread on a Bible subject and every single person that contributes to is RIGHT in his own mind. One person says.....we must keep the Law to stay saved. Another person say that we do not have to keep the Law to stay saved. One person says that we MUST BE BAPTIZED in order to be saved. The other person says no, water baptism does not save. The list goes on and on and I am sure that if you are reading these words you are agreeing with what I just said.

Now, how can everyone be right????? How can we analyze competing claims to the truth?

There are 3 basic possibilities to explain this situation:

1. Human Reason or "Rationalism".
2. Ecclesiastical Authority.
3. Divine revelation.

#1...Rationalism is the idea that truth can be determined by experimentation, by our senses, by our observation of phenomena and what we want to happen. What happens in this understanding is classic.
Whether we believe that REAL truth is a product of what goes on in our OWN minds instinctively or whether it is something placed into our minds by what someone else tells us or what we see , it still comes down to a matter of one's own personal mind, reason and experiences as being the ultimate determination of what the truth is.

#2....Ecclesiastical Authority, is not as confusing and is easier to handle. This in effect says that my church is the ultimate authority. No matter what I think is right or wrong, if the church says it is right then it is right for me. There are several examples of this with us today and I see no reason to list any as there are many.
The faithful within the church are supposed to receive the dogma of the church as being of God. That leads to the position of the Scriptures becoming subservient to the denomination teaching of any given doctrine.

So, ultimately, what is truth, or what is right or wrong is determined by man or men who the church has officially determined through it pronouncements and guidelines.

#3.....Divine Revelation. This means specifically the Word of God as we find written in the Scriptures.

Martin Luther said......"My conscience is captive to the Word of God".
That means that when I think one thing but the Bible says something else, the Bible is right and I am wrong and I am the one who needs to change my thinking.

Anytime a person says, "I do not believe the Bible is correct on this point", that person is operating from the basis of RATIONALISM or ECCESIASTICAL AUTHORITY.

Folks......we cannot correct something unless we have something which is more accurate, more true, more authoritative than the thing which we are trying to correct. So then........from now on, when you see anyone that says he finds any flaw or untruth in Scripture, or when he is shown by that same Scripture his error and he rejects it........that person is then by his own statement saying that HE has a higher basis for the truth than the Scriptures, and presumably it is HIM/HER.

This all means simply this: The mind of modern man has convinced himself that his thoughts and ways are better than those of God's Word.

I am interested in what you think and I hope you will respond.

A very good analysis of the church present problems .

God has given to the church those ministers of God as ordained by God in Ephesians .
To what purpose?
For the perfecting of the church and" till we all come to a unity of the faith "
Now we know "that faith in God comes by hearing and understanding the Word of God"
Clearly then to have a unity of the faith there needs must be a unity of understanding .
That is to say see or understand the same thing .
To think the same be of the same mind . As Paul says of it .
What mind then is this ?
That all men should and must conform to me? or to another?
Who "knoweth the mind of God"? If not the Spirit of God?
Who then teaches both the teacher and by him teaches the church ?
Not by external submission but by the same Spirit that led the teacher to lead the hearer .
Thus IF and it is a BIG if a believer is being LED by Him who leadeth us into all truth.
Then the same Spirit that witnessed with his spirit that they are the sons of God will also witness to the truth in his spirit as it is preached or taught .
If on the other hand a Christian is "yet carnal" then he will neither recognise or receive the things of God .
Thus we have a problem of carnality among Gods people ./ Where they subject the Word of God to their intellect .
and we also have natural men who are not even BORN again who know nothing as yet .

in Christ
gerald

 

[By Faith]

A very good analysis of the church present problems .

God has given to the church those ministers of God as ordained by God in Ephesians .
To what purpose?
For the perfecting of the church and" till we all come to a unity of the faith "
Now we know "that faith in God comes by hearing and understanding the Word of God"
Clearly then to have a unity of the faith there needs must be a unity of understanding .
That is to say see or understand the same thing .
To think the same be of the same mind . As Paul says of it .
What mind then is this ?
That all men should and must conform to me? or to another?
Who "knoweth the mind of God"? If not the Spirit of God?
Who then teaches both the teacher and by him teaches the church ?
Not by external submission but by the same Spirit that led the teacher to lead the hearer .
Thus IF and it is a BIG if a believer is being LED by Him who leadeth us into all truth.
Then the same Spirit that witnessed with his spirit that they are the sons of God will also witness to the truth in his spirit as it is preached or taught .
If on the other hand a Christian is "yet carnal" then he will neither recognise or receive the things of God .
Thus we have a problem of carnality among Gods people ./ Where they subject the Word of God to their intellect .
and we also have natural men who are not even BORN again who know nothing as yet .

in Christ
gerald

So the issue is men being carnal? What exactly are you saying, and how does that make differences in Doctrine?

Does a carnal person try to figure the Word out without faith? That could lead to some confused understanding as the Word is Spirit, alive and life.

Isa 54:7 and Luke 10:19 both state that no weapon formed against us can prosper, neither can any thing hurt us. Does this include nukes?
Paul said God is faithful to deliver us from evil and wicked men......... God will. This mean all men in all situations?

I read this with faith, nothing on this planet will take me out until I complete all God has called me to do. The devil is not big enough.

Others read it like.......... Well, good christains die, and many in China get killed, so we know it's not God's will to always protect us.

Prayer:
God answers prayer, Yes, no or maybe. Everyone knows that....

Scripture says if we ask anything according to his will we know He hears us and we have the petitions desired of Him. Jesus said ask anything in my name that your joy might be full.

I don't see a Maybe or No in scriptures............... I see I need to know God's will which God gives wisdom to every single men and holds it not back........ Knowing the will of God is not that hard, it's free.

Carnal thinking brings something that is Spirit down to an earthly and devilish realm with no power.

The Word is Power, and takes faith to believe what God said.

What did you mean about believing the Word carnally?

 

[GBzone]

So the issue is men being carnal? What exactly are you saying, and how does that make differences in Doctrine?

Does a carnal person try to figure the Word out without faith? That could lead to some confused understanding as the Word is Spirit, alive and life.

I suggest that you read Pauls letter to the Corinthian church on the matter first .
As for the rest it is a scatter gun . I am not going to nor feel obliged to answer every point in such a fashion.

But for the sake of clarity on the first matter .

You have the natural man . Who is dead . and opposes or resists God.
Then you have a child of God who is BORN again .But is "yet carnal" he has a mind" that cannot receive the things of God "

and then you have the spiritual man. Who is wholy sanctified in mind body and spirit .

This is demonstrated by Lot and Abraham and the 10 spies and the 2 spies .

in Christ
gerald

Isa 54:7 and Luke 10:19 both state that no weapon formed against us can prosper, neither can any thing hurt us. Does this include nukes?
Paul said God is faithful to deliver us from evil and wicked men......... God will. This mean all men in all situations?

I read this with faith, nothing on this planet will take me out until I complete all God has called me to do. The devil is not big enough.

Others read it like.......... Well, good christains die, and many in China get killed, so we know it's not God's will to always protect us.

Prayer:
God answers prayer, Yes, no or maybe. Everyone knows that....

Scripture says if we ask anything according to his will we know He hears us and we have the petitions desired of Him. Jesus said ask anything in my name that your joy might be full.

I don't see a Maybe or No in scriptures............... I see I need to know God's will which God gives wisdom to every single men and holds it not back........ Knowing the will of God is not that hard, it's free.

Carnal thinking brings something that is Spirit down to an earthly and devilish realm with no power.

The Word is Power, and takes faith to believe what God said.

What did you mean about believing the Word carnally?

 

[Abdicate]

It's a spiritual warfare. Though it does affect the physical.

 

[GBzone]

I would draw your attention to the letter of Paul to the Corinthians . When he was writing to Christians you "were yet carnal" and thus while BORNagain their minds were not yet "renewed" or brought into conformity with the word of God .
"Let this mind be in you as was in Christ "
Today an awful lot of people subject the scriptures to their thinking not the other way around.
Paul goes on to say that" the carnal mind cannot receive the things of God "

Todays over emphasise on the need to learn Hebrew and Greek reflects this . For it is thought by some that you can only really understand the scriptures if you do.
The question asked was why all the contention and strife over scripture .
The reason is carnality and each man but forming his own opinion .and rather than being led by the Holy Spirit to understand the scriptures lean more upon "their own understanding"
The strife then comes from not "knowing " that which is true in Christ Jesus . and defending or striving over the different 'schools' of theology that abound these days but really are different schools of opinions .

in Christ
gerald

 

[Major]

So the issue is men being carnal? What exactly are you saying, and how does that make differences in Doctrine?

Does a carnal person try to figure the Word out without faith? That could lead to some confused understanding as the Word is Spirit, alive and life.

Isa 54:7 and Luke 10:19 both state that no weapon formed against us can prosper, neither can any thing hurt us. Does this include nukes?
Paul said God is faithful to deliver us from evil and wicked men......... God will. This mean all men in all situations?

I read this with faith, nothing on this planet will take me out until I complete all God has called me to do. The devil is not big enough.

Others read it like.......... Well, good christains die, and many in China get killed, so we know it's not God's will to always protect us.

Prayer:
God answers prayer, Yes, no or maybe. Everyone knows that....

Scripture says if we ask anything according to his will we know He hears us and we have the petitions desired of Him. Jesus said ask anything in my name that your joy might be full.

I don't see a Maybe or No in scriptures............... I see I need to know God's will which God gives wisdom to every single men and holds it not back........ Knowing the will of God is not that hard, it's free.

Carnal thinking brings something that is Spirit down to an earthly and devilish realm with no power.

The Word is Power, and takes faith to believe what God said.

What did you mean about believing the Word carnally?

Since eternal security is a fact of Scripture, even the carnal Christian is still saved. Salvation cannot be lost, because salvation is a gift of God that He will not take away. Even in I Corth. 3:15 the carnal Christian is assured of salvation:.............
“If anyone's work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.”

The question is not whether a person who claims to be a Christian but lives carnally has lost his salvation, but whether that person was truly saved in the first place.

It seems to me that we all are carnal in some way or another as long as we live in these fleshly bodies, but that is not the real question.

The key thing to understand is that while a Christian can be, for a time, carnal, a true Christian will not remain carnal for a lifetime. Some have abused the idea of a “carnal Christian” by saying that it is possible for people to come to faith in Christ and then proceed to live the rest of their lives in a completely carnal manner, with no evidence of being born again or a new creation. Such thinking is completely unbiblical. In the Scriptures, James 2 makes it abundantly clear that genuine faith will always result in good works. Eohesians 2:2-10 declares that while we are saved by grace alone through faith alone, that salvation will result in works. So then the real question should be......
Can a Christian, in a time of failure and/or rebellion, appear to be carnal? Yes. Will a true Christian remain carnal? No.

 

[/]

Amen to that!

A lot of people call that "Cafeteria Christianity".

Take what you like and can do.........leave the rest that you do not like or do not want to do.

 

[GBzone]

The Corinthian believers had this problem where they were divided into theological groups that focused on the teachings of individual apostles and teachers ("I am Paul. I am of Apollos. I am of Cephas..."). They set one teacher against another, even though those teachers were really in agreement with each other. Paul did not contradict Peter, James or John, and vice versa. But by focusing on the teachings of one, their theology was incomplete, resulting in false dichotomies and divisions.

The teachings of the succeeding church fathers are not authoritative like the writings of the apostles in the New Testament, but if believers divided over the apostles teachings, they will certainly divided over the teachings of those who came afterward (including Calvin, Luther, and modern day teachers).

"Eat the meat and throw out the bones." ...but you need to be able to distinguish between bones and meat. The solution is to test all teachings by the whole of scripture, and not to blindly accept what someone says just because he speaks authoritatively and quotes a lot of scripture. The church was even to test what the apostles said against what God said in the Bible (Acts 17:11).

The test requires both the scriptures AND the Holy Spirit together. To rely on the Spirit alone without the scriptures (when the scriptures are available) is dangerous (1 John 4:1). How do you know if it is really the Holy Spirit leading you to a particular understanding? The Holy Spirit will not contradict the Bible.

The way I see it, none of us have perfect understanding of the scriptures. My current state of understanding includes not only missing pieces of doctrine, but wrong pieces of doctrine. And those wrong pieces do not identify themselves as such. So, I seek to remain open to correction whenever I read and study my Bible. But the final authority is the whole of scripture enlightened by the Holy Spirit.

In the main I would agree with you expecialy the need for both the body of truth which are the scriptures and the Spirit of truth by which we may understand them properly .
Some one has said .

If you have the Word of God but not the Spirit of God you dry up.
If you have the Spirit of God but not the Word of God .You will blow up.
But if you have the Word of God and the Spirit of God you will grow up.

One comment . "none of us have a perfect understanding of scripture" needs in my understanding clarification.
For many a serpent of the devil will use a yours or my ignorance of "a perfect understanding of scripture" to insinuate that what you do not know they do and thus must be believed .
But we have this assurance .That the Spirit of truth DOES have a perfect understanding of scripture . Even as it is the mind of God.
and has he not come "to abide with us forever"? Hereby we know the spirit of error by the spirit of truth that abides in us .
Moreover Jesus promised that when the Spirit of truth shall come "HE shall lead us into all truth" that we might know the truth and the truth make us free.
Our intellect may indeed not know perfectly the scriptures . But he who is joined to the Lord is ONE Spirit are we not ?
Therefore He the Spirit of truth which is the Spirit of Christ whom we are his can indeed know that scripture that we know perfectly or come to do so . By HIS Spirit .
And that scripture that we do not fully understand or 'know ' as yet He will not leave us ignorant but will in time and as needed give the understanding also .
But if you mean that no man can know or understand all scripture perfectly then of course you are right .For their are depths and hights and breadths still unknown after 2000 years and more .
But a professor who sits on the beach and refuses to take his shoes off is ignorant of the nature of the sea .
and a young child who squeals with delight as the water covers there feet with each wave knows and understands more.
and the young men so too speak who are "up to their loins" who some of which fear a little as they feel the power of the sea far greater than them. Need not fear as they see others who are swimming and come to understand that they will not be destroyed but that power ;which will raise them up and bear them upon it ."as on eagles wings"

I have found by experience that as I have read scripture meditated upon it heard good preaching of the Word that not only have I absorbed far more than I realised .But that faced with a carnal and aggressive Moslem with their taught and ignorant questions that if you do not defend yourself but uphold the honour of God and declare HIS righteousness and not seek mine . HE has ALWAYS given me the wherewithal and understanding of scripture that I sometimes did not have before the moment of answering .
But having said the ONE thing I did know in answering .He gave me something else to know as it were that followed.
and step by step was able to answer the mans objection fully and comprehensively and at the same time blessed my own soul in the process and was food for thought long after .

In Christ
gerald

 

[GBzone]

Since eternal security is a fact of Scripture, even the carnal Christian is still saved. Salvation cannot be lost, because salvation is a gift of God that He will not take away. Even in I Corth. 3:15 the carnal Christian is assured of salvation:.............
“If anyone's work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.”

The question is not whether a person who claims to be a Christian but lives carnally has lost his salvation, but whether that person was truly saved in the first place.

It seems to me that we all are carnal in some way or another as long as we live in these fleshly bodies, but that is not the real question.

The key thing to understand is that while a Christian can be, for a time, carnal, a true Christian will not remain carnal for a lifetime. Some have abused the idea of a “carnal Christian” by saying that it is possible for people to come to faith in Christ and then proceed to live the rest of their lives in a completely carnal manner, with no evidence of being born again or a new creation. Such thinking is completely unbiblical. In the Scriptures, James 2 makes it abundantly clear that genuine faith will always result in good works. Eohesians 2:2-10 declares that while we are saved by grace alone through faith alone, that salvation will result in works. So then the real question should be......
Can a Christian, in a time of failure and/or rebellion, appear to be carnal? Yes. Will a true Christian remain carnal? No.

I suppose it is what you call a "true Christian "
It was to Christians that Paul spoke too as being "yet carnal" Who were still in need of being given the milk of the Word who he judged should have been teachers of the milk.
For all Christians should be able to teach others and instruct them in the way of righteousness and to "make disciples of all men"
Now a true BORN child of God ;born again by the Word and the Spirit of God . Have been regenerated or become a new creation in their SPIRIT .
Their BODIES have been redeemed also "ready to be revealed"
But the MIND has to be renewed and made conformable to the Word of God which in turn transforms the life LIVED .

The great problem is that in the main it appears that according to Pauls list as to what the milk is (Hebrews) those subjects are the only things preached and taught on .Save the sensational antichrist and the rapture and the rest is taken up in defending error rather than contending for "THE faith that was once and for all delivered to the saints"
In fact because of the lack of teaching of the MEAT of the Word error and the leven of the pharaseses are beign propagated and accepted .Even in this Forum as in others as well of course in the church in general .

Moreover for peace sake and because of the above we have reduced the Gospel of Jesus Christ to the getting out of Egypt or to be BORNagain.
It took them only 40 DAYS to reach the banks of Jordan and the border of the promised land .
Paul warns the church not to be like them "who entered not in because of unbelief"
Unbelief in God is not just simply not believing God .It also includes believing another message .
The 10 false messengers saw with the natural eye and with a carnal mind and forgot the last 40 DAYS as if they had never occurred .
and by their false reasoning and false perceptions they sowed fear and doubt in the minds and hearts of Gods people who the vast majority (save TWO) were of the same opinion .
Who then believed their message .
Rather than the message of the two faithful witnesses who saw exactly the same things but in the true light of what God HAD DONE already . Who was with them in the present and what He had promised for the future .

in Christ

Gerald

 

[By Faith]

Since eternal security is a fact of Scripture, even the carnal Christian is still saved. Salvation cannot be lost, because salvation is a gift of God that He will not take away. Even in I Corth. 3:15 the carnal Christian is assured of salvation:.............
“If anyone's work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.”

The question is not whether a person who claims to be a Christian but lives carnally has lost his salvation, but whether that person was truly saved in the first place.

It seems to me that we all are carnal in some way or another as long as we live in these fleshly bodies, but that is not the real question.

The key thing to understand is that while a Christian can be, for a time, carnal, a true Christian will not remain carnal for a lifetime. Some have abused the idea of a “carnal Christian” by saying that it is possible for people to come to faith in Christ and then proceed to live the rest of their lives in a completely carnal manner, with no evidence of being born again or a new creation. Such thinking is completely unbiblical. In the Scriptures, James 2 makes it abundantly clear that genuine faith will always result in good works. Eohesians 2:2-10 declares that while we are saved by grace alone through faith alone, that salvation will result in works. So then the real question should be......
Can a Christian, in a time of failure and/or rebellion, appear to be carnal? Yes. Will a true Christian remain carnal? No.

I don't believe in eternal secerity to the point that it removes someones choice.

The arguement is that someone was not saved in the first place, they just served God for 25 years, went to church every
sunday, but left God because the really were not saved.

I don't buy into that. We have many warnings are believers to watch for false doctrines, Watch this, watch that.

We are told to walk in love. Do this, keep the body in subjection.

If we don't, we can start to buy into lies and Leave God.

I don't believe Sin itself willl get you unsaved, however Eternal security does not surpass mans free will and choices.

 

[Major]

I don't believe in eternal secerity to the point that it removes someones choice.

The arguement is that someone was not saved in the first place, they just served God for 25 years, went to church every
sunday, but left God because the really were not saved.

I don't buy into that. We have many warnings are believers to watch for false doctrines, Watch this, watch that.

We are told to walk in love. Do this, keep the body in subjection.

If we don't, we can start to buy into lies and Leave God.

I don't believe Sin itself willl get you unsaved, however Eternal security does not surpass mans free will and choices.

Now, IMO-----you know that if you are saved, you got saved by trusting Jesus Christ and his blood shed at Calvary for your sins. The BIG QUESTION, then is, am I saved forever???

The answer to that is a resounding YES! You will understand that when you realize that DOCTRINE for the church is found in the epistles of Paul the Apostle to the GENTILES. You Cannot lose your salvation!!

Romans 11:13.............
For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office: 2 Timothy 1:11 Whereunto I am appointed a preacher, and an apostle, and a teacher of the Gentiles."

Paul had a distinct message for the church. He got that message AFTER the resurrection of Christ by special revelation.

Galatians 1:11 .......
"But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man. 12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ."

So, can you lose your salvation? If we take Paul's word for it, and he wrote most of the New Testament, No.

 

[Major]

I suppose it is what you call a "true Christian "
It was to Christians that Paul spoke too as being "yet carnal" Who were still in need of being given the milk of the Word who he judged should have been teachers of the milk.
For all Christians should be able to teach others and instruct them in the way of righteousness and to "make disciples of all men"
Now a true BORN child of God ;born again by the Word and the Spirit of God . Have been regenerated or become a new creation in their SPIRIT .
Their BODIES have been redeemed also "ready to be revealed"
But the MIND has to be renewed and made conformable to the Word of God which in turn transforms the life LIVED .

The great problem is that in the main it appears that according to Pauls list as to what the milk is (Hebrews) those subjects are the only things preached and taught on .Save the sensational antichrist and the rapture and the rest is taken up in defending error rather than contending for "THE faith that was once and for all delivered to the saints"
In fact because of the lack of teaching of the MEAT of the Word error and the leven of the pharaseses are beign propagated and accepted .Even in this Forum as in others as well of course in the church in general .

Moreover for peace sake and because of the above we have reduced the Gospel of Jesus Christ to the getting out of Egypt or to be BORNagain.
It took them only 40 DAYS to reach the banks of Jordan and the border of the promised land .
Paul warns the church not to be like them "who entered not in because of unbelief"
Unbelief in God is not just simply not believing God .It also includes believing another message .
The 10 false messengers saw with the natural eye and with a carnal mind and forgot the last 40 DAYS as if they had never occurred .
and by their false reasoning and false perceptions they sowed fear and doubt in the minds and hearts of Gods people who the vast majority (save TWO) were of the same opinion .
Who then believed their message .
Rather than the message of the two faithful witnesses who saw exactly the same things but in the true light of what God HAD DONE already . Who was with them in the present and what He had promised for the future .

in Christ

Gerald

While all of what you said is pretty much true, we must remember that we will live in a body of flesh that is prone to sin because we are SINNERS even after we have been saved. The OLD NATURE never dies brother! We have it until we receive glorified bodies.

There is no such thing as SINLESS PERFECTION while we live in a body which is under the curse of sin and depravity.