Does anyone truly believe in Evolution anymore?

[Siloam]

Hi All, sorry but it is really a big question mark for me: when people discuss "Evolution" another topic "Big Bang" is being attached to it.

It is entirely two different topics.

Simply saying: the first one deals with living things (Animals and Plants, etc)

the second one is non-living things : (rocks, elements, the moon, the stars, space, energy, light, temperature, etc.

if one have an idea why the two topic is being connected, that will be helpful a bit... because i really cannot find a strong correlation or association of the two.

The reason they are connected in so many discussions is that they both require an old creation while young earth creationism limits this time to days each day comperable in length to the time between two successive sunsets.

If young Earth creationism is true, neither Darwinian Evolution nor Big bang can be true as they are described.

 

[rtm3039]

Interesting but it does bear out some of the countries govt policies eg sweden and germany, very influenced by eugenics, and China, athiest communist govt. China still has shocking female infanticide rates.
Other countries not surprising the numbers that believe in creation. Particularly islamic nations. But also predominately christian nations. But again you see numbers differ was what I was getting at.

Yes, but worth noting that America is not even close to being on top of the list.

rtm3039

 

[Hobie]

Personally I have not seen belief in evolution go down. I am only seeing it becoming more popular. Even within Church. Evolution continues to be part of education system all over the world. My daughter is going to 3rd grade and very soon she would be taught about evolution at school. I have been talking with her a little about it already. To let her know the difference in what the world believes and what Bible teaches.

Yes, we have to let the children know as they are basically teaching them at a early age before they can discern.

 

[rtm3039]

The reason they are connected in so many discussions is that they both require an old creation while young earth creationism limits this time to days each day comperable in length to the time between two successive sunsets.

If young Earth creationism is true, neither Darwinian Evolution nor Big bang can be true as they are described.

“In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.” (Genesis 1 (NIV)).

One of the major obstacles to my faith, was the foolish notion what I could find a way of understanding everything. My salvation came when I accepted the fact that I will NEVER be able to understand everything. However, I cannot look at the remains of a dinosaur and casually dismiss it as a fabrication. It is real, it existed, and the bible makes no mention of it. I can handle that; as the bible does not mention a great deal.

In reading Genesis, we kind of have to guess when God created air, because the bible does not mention that either. Obviously, it was before He created man, that I am sure of.

Maybe God decided that it would be too complicated to explain everything and that this was part of the test of faith? Let’s go back to air. Our air is made of several components, to include oxygen. Our air includes 20.9% oxygen. This was “discovered” in the 1750s. At the time, the world population was around 700 million. In 2019, the world population is over 7 billion and the percentage of oxygen remains 20.9%. When God created air, it included the earth’s ability to determine its population, how much oxygen would be needed, and how to maintain the level of oxygen at 20.9%. Even today, most people do not know how oxygen is made, so can you imagine explaining that to Moses and expecting him to write all that down? “Then God said, “Let the land produce vegetation: with the ability of producing oxygen through photo-synthesis” just does not work for me.

Bottom line is this: We did not evolve from apes, which is probably why we still have apes. There is no way a complicated living organism like our planet was an accident or a matter of chance. There is no way that my dog will eventually evolve into a cat. I believe that the bible is a collection of information God decided we needed to know. It is not a detailed accounting of everything, because, I suspect, God does not believe we needed to know that. After all, would we enjoy a tomato more, if we all knew it is a fruit and not a vegetable?

We will eventually get to know everything, but, for the time being, I plan on focusing on what God wants me to know.

rtm3039

 

[Siloam]

“In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.” (Genesis 1 (NIV)).

This (and the rest of yom 1 account in Genesis) is a pretty fair description of big bang theory.

Big bang says that there was no before, and nothing there prior. So does Scripture

Big bang says that immediately after the start, it was an unformed (no baryonic matter) and that no photons had come into being, at if any did occur, it would be immediately absorbed. Scripture describes it as formless and void and dark.

Big bang says that as the universe expanded and cooled, photons came into being,throughout the small universe. When it expanded to a certain point, it went through a phase change (sudden change i properties) and became transparent to light. She Scripture records this as God saying Let There Be Light.

I find this amazing.

The scriptures go on to describe the creation of planets and stars (leaving the space between) and the creation of the oceans and dry land. This also has good correspondence with the cosmologies of science.

It goes on.

This is truly amazing, particularly since the purpose of Genesis is to show that God created all, not His methods, while the aim is scientific cosmology is to show what and the physical side of how.

 

[aha]

The reason they are connected in so many discussions is that they both require an old creation while young earth creationism limits this time to days each day comperable in length to the time between two successive sunsets.

If young Earth creationism is true, neither Darwinian Evolution nor Big bang can be true as they are described.

note: am not sure what it means by "two successive sunsets." edit: i understand now, i thought it can be wrong spelling as "subsets" but yes, it can be "sunsets"...

Thank you very much for the reply! that indeed makes sense as far as the belief system goes, and a belief system needs consistency.


Young Earth VS Old Earth belief systems, and consistency requirement of the belief system:

• Young Earth = is around few thousand years old
• Old Earth = is more than that, I am not sure of the number but it is definitely more than thousand or more that a million

the following post does not related to Evolution or the Big Bang, it is more on tackling the time requirement of the 2 belief system: thousand of years VS millions of years.

I would like to offer a reconciliation thought that will make BOTH parties happy, I hope so

On the VERY FIRST or ZERO DAY that a matured TREE was created:

• If OLD EARTHIST will examine that matured TREE: scientific observation will give them it is indeed old, so it can be true: it is indeed old based on observation of the TREE.
• But an YOUNG EARTHIST can say it is young, which is as well true, because it was a DAY OLD tree because it was just created on that very first day.

I remember it just now, I already read a similar post from a Moderator long time before:

if Adam was created as an OLD or say MATURED man, it can follow the same logic that earth was created OLD.

 

[Major]

note: am not sure what it means by "two successive sunsets." edit: i understand now, i thought it can be wrong spelling as "subsets" but yes, it can be "sunsets"...

Thank you very much for the reply! that indeed makes sense as far as the belief system goes, and a belief system needs consistency.


Young Earth VS Old Earth belief systems, and consistency requirement of the belief system:

• Young Earth = is around few thousand years old
• Old Earth = is more than that, I am not sure of the number but it is definitely more than thousand or more that a million

the following post does not related to Evolution or the Big Bang, it is more on tackling the time requirement of the 2 belief system: thousand of years VS millions of years.

I would like to offer a reconciliation thought that will make BOTH parties happy, I hope so

On the VERY FIRST or ZERO DAY that a matured TREE was created:

• If OLD EARTHIST will examine that matured TREE: scientific observation will give them it is indeed old, so it can be true: it is indeed old based on observation of the TREE.
• But an YOUNG EARTHIST can say it is young, which is as well true, because it was a DAY OLD tree because it was just created on that very first day.

I remember it just now, I already read a similar post from a Moderator long time before:

if Adam was created as an OLD or say MATURED man, it can follow the same logic that earth was created OLD.

The Bible never defines the age of the Creation. The "Young Earth" believers say that it is 6000 years old and that is based solely on the genealogies in the Bible. However......most all Bible scholars agree that there are multitudes of "GAPS' in the genealogy records. Those "gaps" would allow the creation to be as much as 10,000 years old.

It has been suggested that the Mosaic genealogies are perhaps only 20 to 40 percent complete. Those who hold that the genealogies are telescoped place the creation of Adam and Eve around 10 to 30 thousand years ago, but perhaps as late as 60,000 years ago

One thing to grasp is that although many Christians argue that Creation days represent ordinary calendar days, the biblical text indicates they lasted much longer. Days 1-3 cannot be ordinary days as humanity defines them because the Sun does not become visible until the fourth day.

Old Earth believers that I know believe that the Creation could be as much as 4.5 Billion years old.

Personally I do not have a clue but deep down in my mind it seems to me that if God exists outside of time as we know it, then the Old Earth thinking would make a better fit than does the Young Earth position.

 

[Lanolin]

I think the issues is timings cos evolutions cant quite believe that a mountain could be created within seconds. They would rather think it just gradually happened, millimetres over time over millions of years! Lol

 

[rtm3039]

The Bible never defines the age of the Creation. The "Young Earth" believers say that it is 6000 years old and that is based solely on the genealogies in the Bible. However......most all Bible scholars agree that there are multitudes of "GAPS' in the genealogy records. Those "gaps" would allow the creation to be as much as 10,000 years old.

It has been suggested that the Mosaic genealogies are perhaps only 20 to 40 percent complete. Those who hold that the genealogies are telescoped place the creation of Adam and Eve around 10 to 30 thousand years ago, but perhaps as late as 60,000 years ago

One thing to grasp is that although many Christians argue that Creation days represent ordinary calendar days, the biblical text indicates they lasted much longer. Days 1-3 cannot be ordinary days as humanity defines them because the Sun does not become visible until the fourth day.

Old Earth believers that I know believe that the Creation could be as much as 4.5 Billion years old.

Personally I do not have a clue but deep down in my mind it seems to me that if God exists outside of time as we know it, then the Old Earth thinking would make a better fit than does the Young Earth position.

Hate to be called a "suck up," but I so much agree. In fact, I have the same thought, but did not want to be the one posting it here. If the bible went into serious details on very thing, it would require a Ford F150 to carry it around. God knows that a good message can easily be lost in the details. I am not prepared to stare at science in the face and dismiss it. Instead, I am prepared to see how science is just a faithless interpretation of what we in faith believe.

rtm3039

 

[Major]

Hate to be called a "suck up," but I so much agree. In fact, I have the same thought, but did not want to be the one posting it here. If the bible went into serious details on very thing, it would require a Ford F150 to carry it around. God knows that a good message can easily be lost in the details. I am not prepared to stare at science in the face and dismiss it. Instead, I am prepared to see how science is just a faithless interpretation of what we in faith believe.

rtm3039

Agreed.

Imagine if Moses had recorded how a cell works. When we study the Bible we see that God gives us information in "Portions". He gives us what we need to know a little bit at a time. If He gave us everything our heads would have exploded in the Garden of Eden.

 

[Major]

I think the issues is timings cos evolutions cant quite believe that a mountain could be created within seconds. They would rather think it just gradually happened, millimetres over time over millions of years! Lol

Now that makes sense.

Mountains are mountains because of plates colliding and pushing dirt and earth upwards. The question then must be.....Who is doing the pushing???

If continental plate tectonics is true, and the continents move on the average of 6 CM a year, that is 2.5 inches per year, how long to you think it took for the continents to be where they are now????

6 thousand years? 10,000 years ??? Maybe a couple of billion years? Just something to think about.

 

[rtm3039]

Now that makes sense.

Mountains are mountains because of plates colliding and pushing dirt and earth upwards. The question then must be.....Who is doing the pushing???

If continental plate tectonics is true, and the continents move on the average of 6 CM a year, that is 2.5 inches per year, how long to you think it took for the continents to be where they are now????

6 thousand years? 10,000 years ??? Maybe a couple of billion years? Just something to think about.

I keep thinking about that you "said" a while before.

We know that God created everything in six days; however, not how long a day actually was.

"Go, my people, enter your rooms and shut the doors behind you; hide yourselves for a little while until his wrath has passed by." Isaiah 26:20 (NIV). How long is that "while?" For that matter, is it as long as "A little while, and the wicked will be no more; though you look for them, they will not be found Psalm 37:10 (NIV).

There are instances where the bible is painfully detailed (Ark, Tabernacle, etc) and some where no details are provided. I do not know why this is, but I know it is by design. If it turned out that the six days were really six million, does that matter? I say no it does not.

Maybe, just maybe, the first five days are God days, while all remaining days are post-man creation days. I'm not even sure what that means, but who knows.

Everything we need to know has been written down for us. The rest are details what we would like to know (at least I would), but does not really matter.

Ok, I'll end this with a personal story. On 911, I was stationed at our HQ at Fort Belvoir, VA. This is about 14 miles from the Pentagon. I and 10 other agents were assigned to go to the Pentagon and join in the body/evidence recovery process. On day two, several of us were sitting on some crates and waiting (we could not enter the area, because there were still small fires and the the impacted area was considered structurally unsound. As we are sitting there, one of the fire engine sirens set off three times and every fireman in the area started to run out away from the building. None of the people in my group had a clue as to why the firemen were running. The FBI agent sitting next to me said something like "I do not know what is going on, but I know never to stand behind a running fireman." At that point, we too ran from the area.

Turns out that we had missed a prior briefing in which it was established that the sound of three sirens signaled an incoming airplane. Apparently, a plane had taken off from Reagan Airport (a government plane) and the flight control inverted the tail number. We were not in any danger, but we did not know that at the time. Imagine if it had been a real threat, but we had waited for someone to explain the details.

 

[Lanolin]

Just keep it simple and say God did it, rather than try and count however many million years you reckon based onExtrapolating VARIABLE data back into the past when you werent even alive.. Nothing is constant.

 

[Major]

Just keep it simple and say God did it, rather than try and count however many million years you reckon based onExtrapolating VARIABLE data back into the past when you werent even alive.. Nothing is constant.

OK. Then how do you explain that the seventh day, in contrast to the first six, never closes with an evening and morning.
In fact, Psalm 95 and Hebrews 4 indicate that we still live in the seventh day.

Doesn't that say something to you about the length of a day in creation Scripture?

That seems to be a constant just as much as the sun rising in the east.

 

[Major]

I keep thinking about that you "said" a while before.

We know that God created everything in six days; however, not how long a day actually was.

"Go, my people, enter your rooms and shut the doors behind you; hide yourselves for a little while until his wrath has passed by." Isaiah 26:20 (NIV). How long is that "while?" For that matter, is it as long as "A little while, and the wicked will be no more; though you look for them, they will not be found Psalm 37:10 (NIV).

There are instances where the bible is painfully detailed (Ark, Tabernacle, etc) and some where no details are provided. I do not know why this is, but I know it is by design. If it turned out that the six days were really six million, does that matter? I say no it does not.

Maybe, just maybe, the first five days are God days, while all remaining days are post-man creation days. I'm not even sure what that means, but who knows.

Everything we need to know has been written down for us. The rest are details what we would like to know (at least I would), but does not really matter.

Ok, I'll end this with a personal story. On 911, I was stationed at our HQ at Fort Belvoir, VA. This is about 14 miles from the Pentagon. I and 10 other agents were assigned to go to the Pentagon and join in the body/evidence recovery process. On day two, several of us were sitting on some crates and waiting (we could not enter the area, because there were still small fires and the the impacted area was considered structurally unsound. As we are sitting there, one of the fire engine sirens set off three times and every fireman in the area started to run out away from the building. None of the people in my group had a clue as to why the firemen were running. The FBI agent sitting next to me said something like "I do not know what is going on, but I know never to stand behind a running fireman." At that point, we too ran from the area.

Turns out that we had missed a prior briefing in which it was established that the sound of three sirens signaled an incoming airplane. Apparently, a plane had taken off from Reagan Airport (a government plane) and the flight control inverted the tail number. We were not in any danger, but we did not know that at the time. Imagine if it had been a real threat, but we had waited for someone to explain the details.

Here is a fact for everyone to understand which fits your comment.

The Bible is NOT a book about the Creation...…..but it contains the Creation account.
The Bible is NOT a book of history............................but it contains history.
The Bible is not a book of biology............................but it contains biology.
The Bible is not a book of mathmatics...................but it contains mathmatics.
The Bible is not a book about phycology...............but it contains phycology.

I could go on and on but I think all get the point.

It does not matter if the Creation is 6000 years or 25 trillion years old. All that matters is that God created Creation and man to enjoy fellowship with Him.

 

[Lanolin]

OK. Then how do you explain that the seventh day, in contrast to the first six, never closes with an evening and morning.
In fact, Psalm 95 and Hebrews 4 indicate that we still live in the seventh day.

Doesn't that say something to you about the length of a day in creation Scripture?

That seems to be a constant just as much as the sun rising in the east.

A thousand years is as one day to the Lord.
The bible doesnt say anything about billions of years. Thats just somethg scientists have made up, and they also dont understand how God views time. Cos He is outside of it.

 

[Lanolin]

It does matter because we go by a calendar God teaches us to number our years. Otherwise why would it say in the Bible how old all those people were when they died. The Bible has a specific chronology for a reason. It also gives the months and days according to the Hebrew calendar for when things happen. In revelation, it counts exact days.

Nobody can reasonably count up over a billion years. If so, we would all have these crazy mixed up calendars. Also its significant that since the birth of Jesus Christ, we now count how many years from that. Why is it 2019, because thats how long its been since Christ was born.

 

[rtm3039]

It does matter because we go by a calendar God teaches us to number our years. Otherwise why would it say in the Bible how old all those people were when they died. The Bible has a specific chronology for a reason. It also gives the months and days according to the Hebrew calendar for when things happen. In revelation, it counts exact days.

Nobody can reasonably count up over a billion years. If so, we would all have these crazy mixed up calendars. Also its significant that since the birth of Jesus Christ, we now count how many years from that. Why is it 2019, because thats how long its been since Christ was born.

Lanolin, here is something to “chew on” for a while. The idea of the modern calendar (Before Christ (B.C.) and Anno Domini (A. D.)) was first suggested in the 6th Century (6 AD) and some countries did not adopt this until the 20th Century). As it turns out, research indicates that Jesus was actually born in the summer or spring, and sometime between 7 B.C. and 2 B.C.

 

[Major]

A thousand years is as one day to the Lord.
The bible doesnt say anything about billions of years. Thats just somethg scientists have made up, and they also dont understand how God views time. Cos He is outside of it.

Genesis 1:1...………."In the BEGINNING God Created the heavens and the earth".

The question has always been......when was the beginning.

If you want to believe that men walked with dinosaurs 6000 years ago, even though there is not one single fossel record of a man with a dino…….
go right ahead.

Fossel records indicate that the last dino's were about 65 million years ago.

I am not going to argue with you. Believe as you want to.

AND...….you just answered your own question. If God is indeed outside of time and a 1000 years is as one day then 100 trillion years or 6000 makes no difference now does it???

Since you have said...….."He is outside of time", how old then is God?

The amswer is ....God is saying that He is always present at all times. There is no past or future with God. Everything is as though it were occurring right now. That’s hard for us to comprehend since we are so bound by time.

 

[Lanolin]

No fossil records dont indicate times. They just indicate they were fossilised.
Geologists claim that strata represents timeszones. But they dont undesrtand that strata can be laid down within seconds. Even I can do that with lasagna gardening.

So evolution time is based on false premises.

I would go with the word of God over some arbitrary geologists timing.

Also the Bible doesnt say 6000 years of this or that. It is just people figuring out how many years back we can go for recorded history.

So yes timing is important because Jesus did admonish people for not knowing the dates and times of the seasons, or the signs of his coming. When people think oh it was just billions of years ago they just make a mockery of Gods creation.