Does Faith have Measure?

CPerkins

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The disciples asked Christ to increase their faith.

Luke 17:5 And the apostles said unto the Lord, Increase our faith. (KJV)

The apostles clearly believed that their faith could increase. So what did Christ answer.

Luke 17:6 And the Lord said, If ye had faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye might say unto this sycamine tree, Be thou plucked up by the root, and be thou planted in the sea; and it should obey you. (KJV)

Then Christ gives us the parable of the unprofitable servant as part of the answer.

Luke 17:7-10 But which of you, having a servant plowing or feeding cattle, will say unto him by and by, when he is come from the field, Go and sit down to meat? 8 And will not rather say unto him, Make ready wherewith I may sup, and gird thyself, and serve me, till I have eaten and drunken; and afterward thou shalt eat and drink? 9 Doth he thank that servant because he did the things that were commanded him? I trow not. 10 So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do.

Christ tells us that simply doing what is commanded of a servant means they are unprofitable. So what does it mean to be profitable? And how does that relate to increasing one's faith?

I'll continue later.....
 
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I believe that our faith is grown when we are tested in situations where an unbeliever would curse God and we pray and seek Him more. Our little seed grows into a seedling, sapling, tree, giant tree, etc. But it all starts with a seed of faith when we invest our hearts and minds in Him. The unprofitable servant would be equal to the servant who when the master goes away for awhile and returns finds that we buried our treasure in a foolish thought of giving Him back what He started with rather than increasing the investment. Did I get it right?
 

CPerkins

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Christ tells us that simply doing what is commanded of a servant means they are unprofitable. So what does it mean to be profitable? And how does that relate to increasing one's faith?

Paul tells us

Hebrews 4:2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it. (KJV)

Here there are those that hear the word and it doesn't profit them. Why?

Because it wasn't heard in faith. God hadn't called them. Hebrews 4 is a continuation from Chapter 3 which is speaking of Israel and how the first generation of Israel didn't enter the promised Land because of unbelief. Israel acted in unbelief when they feared the Canaanites rather than trusting God's promises. Scouts had been sent to give an advance report of Canaan had told of the people and the lands bounty. All but Joshua and Caleb of the scouts told of grave danger and the people heard danger rather than bounty.

Hebrew 12:10-11 For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he (God) for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness. 11 Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby. (KJV)

Parents discipline us in their good pleasure which may be profitable for us. God disciplines or chastens us for our profit or good. How is this discipline profitable? It's profitable in that it leads us to change, to hear God, to act in God's will.

James 2:14-17
What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, 16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? 17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

It starting to get clearer what Christ was trying to tell us with the unprofitable servant.

Simply obeying a physical command without acting in love or faith is not profitable. Faith if not acted on in time will die, being dead. To be profitable we must act on this faith exercising it, by trusting God.

1 Timothy 4:7-8 But refuse profane and old wives' fables, and exercise thyself rather unto godliness. 8 For bodily exercise profiteth little: but godliness is profitable unto all things, having promise of the life that now is, and of that which is to come.

Faith and love are apart of Godliness, they are Godly attributes that God gives us. Exercising these gifts from God are highly profitable to us having the promise of life now and in the future.

There is more to it as you study what it means to be profitable to God.

cp
 
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CPerkins

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romans 12:3 For by the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think with sober judgment, each according to the measure of faith that God has assigned.

Agreed, There are many scriptures that indicate faith has measure.

Matt 6:30 Wherefore, if God so clothe the grass of the field, which to day is, and to morrow is cast into the oven, shall he not much more clothe you, O ye of little faith? (KJV)

Christ spoke of those with little faith in several places as well.

cp
 
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I have often thought that Luke 17 is about putting the spiritual life into action and then that even doing small tasks should not be considered outstandingly laudable.
.
In 17:5 the disciples wanted the Lord to increase their faith (as if it were something that could be imposed from outside).

The Lord knew that the disciples thought that the desired faith in itself would enable them to be personally great and perform miracles by their own power (lots of incorrect understanding there).

So in 17:6 the Lord was saying that lack of faith is not the issue. It is putting whatever level of faith one has into action that will enable one to do perform service to God (and not inconsequentially increase the strength of the believers grain of faith, resulting in what the disciples were asking).

in 17:7-10 the Lord was explaining that doing the minimal asked and not stepping up to rely on faith will not be overly laudable. The Lord wishes eager workers.

Things to take away:

(1) Faith is not supplied free.
(2) Faith is not for self aggrandizement
(3) Working for the Lord increases faith.
(4) Doing the minimal does not increase faith, nor what GOd wants.

Be careful shat you pray for. Pray for increased faith and God will supply situations where you need to exercise your faith.
 
Romans 12:3, as stated by Forgiven61, is indicative that we do not retain a measure of anything other than the measure of the completeness of Christ. We either believe and act on our belief or we doubt. Ephesians 4:13 the same context of measure is given and it speaks to the measure of the enormity of Christ. I propose, also, that the measure is literally full or empty.
 

CPerkins

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I have often thought that Luke 17 is about putting the spiritual life into action and then that even doing small tasks should not be considered outstandingly laudable.
.
In 17:5 the disciples wanted the Lord to increase their faith (as if it were something that could be imposed from outside).

The Lord knew that the disciples thought that the desired faith in itself would enable them to be personally great and perform miracles by their own power (lots of incorrect understanding there).

So in 17:6 the Lord was saying that lack of faith is not the issue. It is putting whatever level of faith one has into action that will enable one to do perform service to God (and not inconsequentially increase the strength of the believers grain of faith, resulting in what the disciples were asking).

in 17:7-10 the Lord was explaining that doing the minimal asked and not stepping up to rely on faith will not be overly laudable. The Lord wishes eager workers.

Things to take away:

(1) Faith is not supplied free.
(2) Faith is not for self aggrandizement
(3) Working for the Lord increases faith.
(4) Doing the minimal does not increase faith, nor what GOd wants.

Be careful shat you pray for. Pray for increased faith and God will supply situations where you need to exercise your faith.

Agreed. There are plenty of scripture to support all of those points.

I've also had plenty of situations where I needed to exercise faith. God gives us what he knows we can handle at any given time and sometimes he stretches us because he has other tasks planned for us that we aren't yet prepared for.

Faith though is always a gift that God gives and not something that we work up. If we lack humility God has a way of humbling us as well.

cp
 
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I would add:

II Corinthians 10:15 (NASB) - "not boasting beyond our measure (G280; negative particle), that is, in other people’s labors, but with the hope that as your faith grows, (G837; lit. grows) we will be, within our domain, enlarged even more by you".

Faith is again synonymous with the mustard seed parable in that it grows in size and strength. The seed is either planted or remains dormant. Again exists (full) or is nonexistent (empty).
 
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Christ tells us that simply doing what is commanded of a servant means they are unprofitable. So what does it mean to be profitable? And how does that relate to increasing one's faith?

Paul tells us

Hebrews 4:2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it. (KJV)

Here there are those that hear the word and it doesn't profit them. Why?

Because it wasn't heard in faith. God hadn't called them. Hebrews 4 is a continuation from Chapter 3 which is speaking of Israel and how the first generation of Israel didn't enter the promised Land because of unbelief. Israel acted in unbelief when they feared the Canaanites rather than trusting God's promises. Scouts had been sent to give an advance report of Canaan had told of the people and the lands bounty. All but Joshua and Caleb of the scouts told of grave danger and the people heard danger rather than bounty.

Hebrew 12:10-11 For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he (God) for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness. 11 Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby. (KJV)

Parents discipline us in their good pleasure which may be profitable for us. God disciplines or chastens us for our profit or good. How is this discipline profitable? It's profitable in that it leads us to change, to hear God, to act in God's will.

James 2:14-17
What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, 16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? 17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

It starting to get clearer what Christ was trying to tell us with the unprofitable servant.

Simply obeying a physical command without acting in love or faith is not profitable. Faith if not acted on in time will die, being dead. To be profitable we must act on this faith exercising it, by trusting God.

1 Timothy 4:7-8 But refuse profane and old wives' fables, and exercise thyself rather unto godliness. 8 For bodily exercise profiteth little: but godliness is profitable unto all things, having promise of the life that now is, and of that which is to come.

Faith and love are apart of Godliness, they are Godly attributes that God gives us. Exercising these gifts from God are highly profitable to us having the promise of life now and in the future.

There is more to it as you study what it means to be profitable to God.

cp

Faith a measure = Gold

In one way gold throughout the Bible . represents the "substance" or "measure of faith" (the unseen eternal ). A reference to gold to signifies a measure of faith. It is first found used as a metaphor in a parable in Genesis using a 4 rivers to indicate the gospel going out from Eden And the gold of that land is good. In that parables gold is used in hiding the gospel understanding.

1 Peter 1:7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:

Like for instance the golden Ark. Inside the Ark was hidden the manna, Aaron staff and the stone from the law. The Bible was to be placed on the outside of the Ark the Book of the law the bible. You could say to reveal what was hidden for a unseen witness or measure against mankind.

Deuteronomy 31:26 Take this book of the law, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the Lord your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee.

I think faith as a work or labor of love faith is a measure. In the book Revelation it is referred to as the golden reed . Gold throughout the scripture represents faith the unseen measure.

Revelation 21:15 And he that talked with me had a golden reed to measure the city, and the gates thereof, and the wall thereof.

In Revelation 2:17 its called the hidden manna again having to do with rightly diviing the parables. We search for its understanding or measure of faith as if it was silver or gold he causes the increase .


We mix His measure the eternal not seen with the things seen the literal historical the temporal .

The prescription needed below to mix the substance of faith with the measure of man the temporal .then we can find the understanding of the parables.

2 Corinthians 4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

When and if we do mix faith the golden measure of a city used as a denomyn (Christian, residents of the city of Christ. ) it converts inches linear measure into souls.


Revelation 21:15 And he that talked with me had a golden reed to measure the city, and the gates thereof, and the wall thereof.
 
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bobinfaith

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Faith a measure = Gold

In one way gold throughout the Bible . represents the "substance" or "measure of faith" (the unseen eternal ). A reference to gold to signifies a measure of faith. It is first found used as a metaphor in a parable in Genesis using a 4 rivers to indicate the gospel going out from Eden And the gold of that land is good. In that parables gold is used in hiding the gospel understanding.

1 Peter 1:7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:

Like for instance the golden Ark. Inside the Ark was hidden the manna, Aaron staff and the stone from the law. The Bible was to be placed on the outside of the Ark the Book of the law the bible. You could say to reveal what was hidden for a unseen witness or measure against mankind.

Deuteronomy 31:26 Take this book of the law, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the Lord your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee.

I think faith as a work or labor of love faith is a measure. In the book Revelation it is referred to as the golden reed . Gold throughout the scripture represents faith the unseen measure.

Revelation 21:15 And he that talked with me had a golden reed to measure the city, and the gates thereof, and the wall thereof.

In Revelation 2:17 its called the hidden manna again having to do with rightly diviing the parables. We search for its understanding or measure of faith as if it was silver or gold he causes the increase .


We mix His measure the eternal not seen with the things seen the literal historical the temporal .

The prescription needed below to mix the substance of faith with the measure of man the temporal .then we can find the understanding of the parables.

2 Corinthians 4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

When and if we do mix faith the golden measure of a city used as a denomyn (Christian, residents of the city of Christ. ) it converts inches linear measure into souls.


Revelation 21:15 And he that talked with me had a golden reed to measure the city, and the gates thereof, and the wall thereof.

Hello Garee;

Thank you for sharing. I enjoyed your outline mixed with Scriptures.

God bless you and your family.
 

CPerkins

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Faith a measure = Gold

Not sure what you mean by this.

In one way gold throughout the Bible . represents the "substance" or "measure of faith" (the unseen eternal ). A reference to gold to signifies a measure of faith. It is first found used as a metaphor in a parable in Genesis using a 4 rivers to indicate the gospel going out from Eden And the gold of that land is good. In that parables gold is used in hiding the gospel understanding.

1 Peter 1:7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:

Like for instance the golden Ark. Inside the Ark was hidden the manna, Aaron staff and the stone from the law. The Bible was to be placed on the outside of the Ark the Book of the law the bible. You could say to reveal what was hidden for a unseen witness or measure against mankind.

Deuteronomy 31:26 Take this book of the law, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the Lord your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee.

I think faith as a work or labor of love faith is a measure. In the book Revelation it is referred to as the golden reed . Gold throughout the scripture represents faith the unseen measure.

Revelation 21:15 And he that talked with me had a golden reed to measure the city, and the gates thereof, and the wall thereof.

In Revelation 2:17 its called the hidden manna again having to do with rightly diviing the parables. We search for its understanding or measure of faith as if it was silver or gold he causes the increase .


We mix His measure the eternal not seen with the things seen the literal historical the temporal .

The prescription needed below to mix the substance of faith with the measure of man the temporal .then we can find the understanding of the parables.

2 Corinthians 4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

When and if we do mix faith the golden measure of a city used as a denomyn (Christian, residents of the city of Christ. ) it converts inches linear measure into souls.


Revelation 21:15 And he that talked with me had a golden reed to measure the city, and the gates thereof, and the wall thereof.

Going through your explanation of "faith a measure = gold," I'm not understanding what it is you are trying to say.

The trying of our faith is certainly precious like gold as God refines us like 1 Peter 1:7 tells us.

Can you explain how the measure of faith is related to gold and more specifically where God's word makes that connection. I'm not seeing it in the scriptures you quoted.

The Greek word in this case is used in the manner of measuring an amount or quantity

Strongs #3358
2. determined extent, portion measured off, measure or limit: with a genitive of the thing received, Romans 12:3; 2 Corinthians 10:13; (Ephesians 4:7); ἐν μέτρῳ, in proportion to the measure (cf. Winers Grammar, § 48, a. 3 b. and see ἐνέργεια; others, in due measure), Ephesians 4:16; the required measure, the due, fit, measure: τῆς ἡλικίας, the proper i. e. ripe, full age (see ἡλικία, 1 c.) (of a man), Ephesians 4:13 (ἡβης, Homer, Iliad 11, 225; Odyssey 11, 317; Solon 5, 52 (Poet. Min. Gr. (edited by Gaisford) 3:135)).


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Not sure what you mean by this.



Going through your explanation of "faith a measure = gold," I'm not understanding what it is you are trying to say.

The trying of our faith is certainly precious like gold as God refines us like 1 Peter 1:7 tells us.

Can you explain how the measure of faith is related to gold and more specifically where God's word makes that connection. I'm not seeing it in the scriptures you quoted.

The Greek word in this case is used in the manner of measuring an amount or quantity

Strongs #3358
2. determined extent, portion measured off, measure or limit: with a genitive of the thing received, Romans 12:3; 2 Corinthians 10:13; (Ephesians 4:7); ἐν μέτρῳ, in proportion to the measure (cf. Winers Grammar, § 48, a. 3 b. and see ἐνέργεια; others, in due measure), Ephesians 4:16; the required measure, the due, fit, measure: τῆς ἡλικίας, the proper i. e. ripe, full age (see ἡλικία, 1 c.) (of a man), Ephesians 4:13 (ἡβης, Homer, Iliad 11, 225; Odyssey 11, 317; Solon 5, 52 (Poet. Min. Gr. (edited by Gaisford) 3:135)).


cp

Thanks I can try.

Gold represents the unseen eternal just as in the same way as the power of faith as it is written. In that way sola scriptura is the golden rule of faith.

What we do see represents the temporal or under the sun they must be mixed . Throne seen on earth reveals the unseen throne in heaven.

2 Corinthians 4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

The trial of our unseen God working in us to both will and power to perform His good pleasure represents his work of faith or labor of love.

Gold is used in parables like below in that way to express his unseen spiritual understanding .Called hidden manna in Revelation 2.

Revelation21; 15-17 And he that talked with me had a golden reed to measure the city, and the gates thereof, and the wall thereof And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal. And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of the angel.


In the parable above in order to measure the city as to the residents thereof we can understand that walls are used to represent the New Testament saints and gates to represent Old Testament saints. According to the measure of man what the eyes see the temporal it does not give us the golden measure or unseen but do give a linear measure viewable to the eye .The golden reed or measure indicates souls not inanimate buildings. but a new creature that all together make up the bride of Christ as new creatures. The 144 cubits according to the golden reed. . its hidden understanding acknowledges the 144, 000 a number no man could count equaling all believers from the beginning of time beginning with Abel to first martyr as a member of the bride of Christ the church .

Gold is used that way throughout the bible. The false prophet Josef Smith tried to cash in on its use in the bible with the golden plates Nephi to seduce man we do need a man to teach us . In that way it appears the value of how the word gold like faith is priceless.
 
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