Does God choose to limit Himself?

Major said:
I really do enjoy your comments GF. Now, just as a matter of conversation, playing the devils advocate position and not in anyway to challenge your comments, allow me to say that most Christian theologians join most of the secular philosophers of the last 2,500 years in saying that God is outside of time. I am not saying that is untrue by the way.

However, if the Scriptures teach that God experiences changes in sequence, would that indicate that God exists in time demonstrating that a temporality is not a necessary attribute of deity. So here is an example of a biblical proof falsifying that a temporality is an essential attribute of deity:

In the eternal state before the foundation of the world God the Son was not also the Son of Man; then He "became" flesh as "the Son of Man" and so the Son remains eternally "the Man Jesus Christ".

......
"For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus."

It seems that many theologians typically will reject that Rare this statement shows that God has a past, and therefore exists in time. However, would you agree that the Incarnation has eternally changed God the Son, and therefore, also His relationship with the Holy Spirit and the Father, and that the Incarnation demonstrates that God, in this case, in the person of the Son, has undergone change. Would this then be a biblical proof that God is in time????
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Major you make a great point and while writing a detailed answer I almost wrote a novel to properly respond. I have now instead for the sake of clarity drawn a chart that can visually differentiate the three views I proposed already, but also have added two more that “I think” may depict your additional suggestions. Please look at the uploaded image and see if the first two Figures, either I, or II depict the proposal you suggested? The first two (I, II) or “inside-time” and the last three (III, IV, and V) are “inside and outside time.”

If you feel this chart needs another configuration with detailed specifics to reflect your view more accurately I can update the image and upload again. We can make the image more intelligent as well.

I embrace “figure IV” and will give a better response to your suggestions after I know with more precision your position or the position you are suggesting my good friend.

2015_03_31st_God_n_time.jpg
 
Great Fiction said:
Major you make a great point and while writing a detailed answer I almost wrote a novel to properly respond. I have now instead for the sake of clarity drawn a chart that can visually differentiate the three views I proposed already, but also have added two more that “I think” may depict your additional suggestions. Please look at the uploaded image and see if the first two Figures, either I, or II depict the proposal you suggested? The first two (I, II) or “inside-time” and the last three (III, IV, and V) are “inside and outside time.”

If you feel this chart needs another configuration with detailed specifics to reflect your view more accurately I can update the image and upload again. We can make the image more intelligent as well.

I embrace “figure IV” and will give a better response to your suggestions after I know with more precision your position or the position you are suggesting my good friend.

View attachment 1613
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Yes....#4 would also be my choice. Do also agree that It would answer the question of.........
"Did God create man, or did man create God".

We know from the Bible that The Lord does not count time as we do. He is above and outside of the sphere of time. God sees all of eternity’s past and eternity’s future because He is the creator of those events. The time that passes on earth is of no consequence from God’s timeless perspective. A second is no different from an eon; a billion years pass like seconds to the eternal God.

Though we cannot possibly comprehend this idea of eternity or the timelessness of God, we in our finite minds try to confine an infinite God to our time schedule and therein lies the problem.

(Thanks to.... http://www.gotquestions.org/God-time.html#ixzz3W4GjNxAB)
"Additionally, the science of physics tells us that time is a property resulting from the existence of matter. As such, time exists when matter exists. But God is not matter; God, in fact, created matter. The bottom line is this: time began when God created the universe. Before that, God was simply existing. Since there was no matter, and because God does not change, time had no existence and therefore no meaning, no relation to Him. "

So then.....doesn't your example in #4 explain the meaning of the word eternity. Eternity is the used to express the concept of something that has no end and/or no beginning which by the way is right in front of all of us whether it be heaven or hell according to our choice. I believe that God has no beginning or end. I believe that He is outside the realm of time. Eternity is not something that can be absolutely related to God since God is even beyond eternity.

Scripture reveals that God lives outside the bounds of time as we know it.

Our destiny was planned “before the beginning of time” in 2 Timothy 1:9; Titus 1:2.

It was “before the creation of the world” as told in Ephesians 1:4; 1 Peter 1:20.

“By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God’s command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible” according to Hebrews 11:3.

In other words, I think that you will agree that the physical universe we see, hear, feel and experience was created not from existing matter, but from a source independent of the physical dimensions we can perceive.

Thewww. This is getting real close to being above my pay grade brother. We have passed the 2+2 = 4 stage where I live a long time ago and I have said before that I am just an old country boy.
 
Major said:
Yes....#4 would also be my choice. Do also agree that It would answer the question of.........

"Did God create man, or did man create God".

We know from the Bible that The Lord does not count time as we do. He is above and outside of the sphere of time. God sees all of eternity’s past and eternity’s future because He is the creator of those events. The time that passes on earth is of no consequence from God’s timeless perspective. A second is no different from an eon; a billion years pass like seconds to the eternal God.

Though we cannot possibly comprehend this idea of eternity or the timelessness of God, we in our finite minds try to confine an infinite God to our time schedule and therein lies the problem.

(Thanks to.... http://www.gotquestions.org/God-time.html#ixzz3W4GjNxAB)

"Additionally, the science of physics tells us that time is a property resulting from the existence of matter. As such, time exists when matter exists. But God is not matter; God, in fact, created matter. The bottom line is this: time began when God created the universe. Before that, God was simply existing. Since there was no matter, and because God does not change, time had no existence and therefore no meaning, no relation to Him. "

So then.....doesn't your example in #4 explain the meaning of the word eternity. Eternity is the used to express the concept of something that has no end and/or no beginning which by the way is right in front of all of us whether it be heaven or hell according to our choice. I believe that God has no beginning or end. I believe that He is outside the realm of time. Eternity is not something that can be absolutely related to God since God is even beyond eternity.

Scripture reveals that God lives outside the bounds of time as we know it.

Our destiny was planned “before the beginning of time” in ; .

It was “before the creation of the world” as told in ; .

“By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God’s command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible” according to .

In other words, I think that you will agree that the physical universe we see, hear, feel and experience was created not from existing matter, but from a source independent of the physical dimensions we can perceive.
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Incredible feedback and perspective Major

I think time is a formidable opponent to understand in its entirety since we don't have measurable access to it outside our detectable reaches in space. Though we can establish and measure some temporal scientific norms, we are still living in a vast land of prediction and speculation in the far reaches of space. However like you, I am moved to scripture to witness our Lords capable operations to better understand His temporal movements and how that affects our earthly linear time-line.

Major said:
Thewww. This is getting real close to being above my pay grade brother. We have passed the 2+2 = 4 stage where I live a long time ago and I have said before that I am just an old country boy.
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Your comments emancipate uneventful thinking and challenges my mind to consider more scripture and science in tandem, regardless of your countryside corporeal logistics my friend.

Or from one country boy to another, “Yep I reckon rautchia on this stuff we pert-neer agree on all of it.”

I think the day will come soon where we will stand before our Lord and see it all in perfect clarity my friend.
 
Great Fiction said:
Incredible feedback and perspective Major

I think time is a formidable opponent to understand in its entirety since we don't have measurable access to it outside our detectable reaches in space. Though we can establish and measure some temporal scientific norms, we are still living in a vast land of prediction and speculation in the far reaches of space. However like you, I am moved to scripture to witness our Lords capable operations to better understand His temporal movements and how that affects our earthly linear time-line.



Your comments emancipate uneventful thinking and challenges my mind to consider more scripture and science in tandem, regardless of your countryside corporeal logistics my friend.

Or from one country boy to another, “Yep I reckon rautchia on this stuff we pert-neer agree on all of it.”

I think the day will come soon where we will stand before our Lord and see it all in perfect clarity my friend.
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Amen brother...:ROFLMAO:
 
STAFF EDIT TO REMOVE SRV QUOTE.




If subjective analysis void of objective truth moves to construct a substrate of criticism to challenge the existence of God, then it becomes vividly manifest that simple objective deduction will assign the proposed praxeological argument of criticism to be void of assertoric facts, objective truth and a priori knowledge; for the criticism cannot penetrate the is/ought dichotomy from Hume any more than a Christian can in a rebuttal.

May the Lord find your spirit fixed, and move a sower to invest seeds of love that will manufacture a spiritual harvest of peace that transfigures your life to insurmountable blessings my friend.
 
STAFF EDIT TO REMOVE SRV QUOTE




You realized that what you said, you also learned it from another teachings of man.

There is no escape.

We are all students of life.

We choose our teacher.

Choose wisely.

We made our choice.
 
Member Note: New member SRV has been removed from CFS for false registration and inflammatory postings as a non-Christian.

We are temporarily leaving quotes of his postings in place, but those quotes will eventually be eliminated, as were his 5 posts at CFS.

If anyone sees any new members posting non-Christian text, anti Christian information or ridicule of Christianity, please report those members - it is your responsibility to do so as CFS members. Thank you.






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I agree, … requesting to delete entirely my post reply to SRV # 106, 107 and this post....

It’s good, reason I replied to him is I thought they will be allowed to stay, as they are allowed from time to time before......
 
"aha" - We can leave your replies... they are not a problem... one of the staff members removed the SRV trash talk quotes and original posts, so we are all good to go.

We have allowed a very few non-Christians in, who asked by way of their initial registration application to try to gain Christian knowledge - However, this person falsely registered just to gain access to get a platform to run down Christianity.

On behalf of the CFS staff,
 
Pastor Gary said:
"aha" - We can leave your replies... they are not a problem... one of the staff members removed the SRV trash talk quotes and original posts, so we are all good to go.

We have allowed a very few non-Christians in, who asked by way of their initial registration application to try to gain Christian knowledge - However, this person falsely registered just to gain access to get a platform to run down Christianity.

On behalf of the CFS staff,
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Good decision!
 
LanceA said:
In scripture we see where it seems God has chosen or make Himself not know certain events in the bible. I'll give one example of this.
Genesis 18:20-21
God is speaking to Abraham and telling him that there is an outcry from the sin Sodom and Gomorrah is doing and that He needed to go down to see whether they have done this sin and if not then He would know.
In a way this tells us God either doesn't know everything or He chooses not to know everything. Why would God need to go to the city to prove what He already knows?...
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Maybe Abraham did not know the truth, and by visiting Sodom and Gomorrah, he would know the truth too. Then God and Abraham would be joined in what must be done to avoid such sin.
 
Back to the OP topic.... Many places have been utterly destroyed and there is no biblical record... but there IS a detailed biblical record of Sodom and the 5 cities of the plain.... WHY? It's there for us to LEARN something from it.... To learn something very important about God's nature....

This is especially clear when we compare the ENTIRE account of Sodom (Including Genesis 13-14, Genesis 18-19) against Judges 19-21 - The Levite's concubine and Gibeah.... There is a very clear contrast between the two episodes that illustrates The Way of God vs The way of Man.....

Sodom:
Was there testimony by 2 or 3? 3 - Lot + the 2 messengers.
Was the testimony coming from a "Righteous man" - Yes - Lot is declared righteous in the bible (1st Peter)
Was there a REPUTATION for evil in the place? Yes - look at Genesis 13
Was there an indication that EVERYONE in the place WAS evil? Yes.
Was Sodom called/invited to turn/repent PRIOR to destruction? Yes - Lot apparently preached against their works.
Did they send in any Witnesses to ESTABLISH the facts? Yes.
Did they send in any witnesses to seek out The Righteous? Yes.
Did they send in any witnesses to SAVE the Righteous or deliver the place if there WERE a large Righteous population? Yes.
Did they destroy The Righteous with The Wicked - NO - Lot and his people were delivered
Is it clear that they actually destroyed The Wicked who DID the evil -Yes
Did they exercise Restraint and listening to Reason - Yes - God listened to Abraham, the angels listened to Lot..
In their anger and haste - did they ADD error on top of error and sin MORE - No. The destruction was limited to the wicked.
Did they condemn the Innocent - No

Gibeah:
Was there testimony by 2 or 3? No - just the one.
Was the testimony coming from a "Righteous man" - No. He turned his WIFE over to those evil men... He gave THEM permission to do what they did...
Was there a REPUTATION for evil in the place? No.
Was there an indication that EVERYONE in the place WAS evil? NO.
Was Gibeah called/invited to turn/repent PRIOR to destruction? No.
THEN...
Did they send in any MORE Witnesses to ESTABLISH the facts? No.
Did they send in any witnesses to seek out The Righteous? No.
Did they send in any witnesses to SAVE the Righteous or deliver the place if there WERE a large Righteous population? NO.
Did they destroy The Righteous with The Wicked - YES... Not only the righteous in Gibeah - but the ENTIRE tribe of Benjamin as well including women and children...
Is it clear that they actually destroyed The Wicked who DID the evil - No... They could have been part of the remnant that fled to the mountains...
Did they exercise Restraint and listening to Reason - NO.
In their anger and haste - did they ADD error on top of error and sin MORE - YES..
Did they condemn the Innocent - YES - the REST of the tribe of Benjamin, their wives and children, those of Jabesh Gilead and the virgins of Shiloh...
 
If Jesus is the "alpha" and "omega", which is the beginning and the end, all at the same time, then everything that is in-between the beginning, and the end must be time itself. Before there was a beginning and every thing after the end is eternity. If you take away time that is sandwiched between the beginning and the end then the beginning and the end merge together as one. The beginning, and the end are exactly the same thing.

Ecc 1:9.. What has been is what will be, and what has been done is what will be done, and there is nothing new under the sun.

Everything that we receive as a Christian that manifests itself in this "linear" world is simply what God has already given to us from the beginning.

The Glory of God that dwells within every Christian is the power that God uses to bring about eternal things into manifestation, and this Glory travels through out all ages. This Glory goes through out all "ages" and is never subject to any form of linear time. How else can a believer come before God in His Kingdom that is outside of time?

Eph 3:20 Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us,
Eph 3:21 Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.

This Glory (power) goes throughout ALL AGES, and transcends time to travel through out eternity, as the scripture says..... "It is a world without end!!!"
 
What do we call this?
1 Timothy 2:
3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Is this God limiting Himself since not all will be saved? Is allowing most to not be saved, against His desire/will/wishes, a limit on Himself, or just a turning over the power over these soul's destinies to the individual to determine their own outcome? Is not using His power a limit on Himself? Or, is it a use of unlimited power to grant the endowment of determination.
To us it seems a loss of power to allow another to make a decision outside of your control. But could that actually be a demonstration of true power?
 
Big Moose said:
What do we call this?
1 Timothy 2:
3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Is this God limiting Himself since not all will be saved? Is allowing most to not be saved, against His desire/will/wishes, a limit on Himself, or just a turning over the power over these soul's destinies to the individual to determine their own outcome? Is not using His power a limit on Himself? Or, is it a use of unlimited power to grant the endowment of determination.
To us it seems a loss of power to allow another to make a decision outside of your control. But could that actually be a demonstration of true power?
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There are two ways the power sin operates in a individual. (1) you do something that you know you should not do. (2) You do not do what you know you should do. Both are actions that the power of sin causes.

I believe the "power" to either do evil, is equal to the power to not do what is right.

When we talk about the "grace" of God we are actually referring to God's power to refrain from doing something to those who deserve something other than grace. For God to show "grace" requires great power to refrain to not give grace. It probably takes just as much power to bless someone then it is to show mercy to others who do not deserve it. God does not limit himself by allowing people to choose whom they will serve, over those who want his salvation. It takes power to do both.

It takes power in showing grace...

1Co 15:56.. The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. (ESV)

Rom 5:20.. Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound: (KJV)

Where the "power" of sin is, the power of "grace" abounds much more.

God does not limit himself as he is "sovereign" in all he allows.
 
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