You're right--it's not about God being unfair or harsh. But I see another difficulty here: These passages speak of God doing more than merely passively sitting back and allowing people to make bad decisions. They portray him as actively doing something in response to the bad decisions. So, you see, I'm not so sure that saying God "let them make those bad decisions" really does justice to the text.
Does God Harden Pharaoh's Heart ?????
- Thread starter Dusty
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You're right--it's not about God being unfair or harsh. But I see another difficulty here: These passages speak of God doing more than merely passively sitting back and allowing people to make bad decisions. They portray him as actively doing something in response to the bad decisions. So, you see, I'm not so sure that saying God "let them make those bad decisions" really does justice to the text.
Do you think then that Pharoah gave satan permission to take over ?
And don't you think that God was activiely involved in punishing Pharoah and his people by sending all those Plagues? And Pharoah would not admit the power of God and hardened his heart more and more with his stubborness.
Also I ask the question in Exodus ... Why is God saying " I am the LORD " and putting capital letters on the Name LORD. I never saw that before when I was reading .
Yes Der Pilger .... Good food for thought . Ok , I would say that maybe both of us are right but I would also say that God knew Pharoah's heart even before Pharoah knew because God knows us better than we know ourselves , so is it fair to say that because God already knew , He withdrew and let let Pharoah make the choice . ? That is a puzzling one for sure .
Thanks Der Pilger , cause you got me thinking and your questions are certainly thought provoking .
We are studying the Book of Exodus right now and so going back to that book . The purpose of course is the departure of the Israelites and God promised Abraham that He will make them a great nation .
God apointed Moses as we know to be the one to free the people from their bondage in Egypt.
In Exodus God reveals His name , His attributes , His redemption , His law and how He is to be worshipped .
God's nature is also found in this book . Exodus reveals His attributes of justice , truthfulness, mercy, faithulness and holyiness .
When we are studying Exodus , we see the Egypt is a type of the ". World " and Moses is a' type "of Christ and the Israelites are a 'type" of believers in Christ.
So what am I getting at ? Well if Egypt is a type of the world , why did God command them to go into Egypt ?
As Christians , God commands us to be ' in " the world but not " of' the world .9 Jon17:14-15) The same went for the Isrealites . They trusted God would bring them out one day. Jesus makes that same promise to you and I . "And if I go and prepare a place for you and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am ( John 14:3)
Don't you think it was because God in all His Glory wanted to show the people who He is was or should I say who He is and display His power so that the people would know beyond a shadow of a doubt that He is the LORD God .
No, I don't. He was a slave to Satan, like all unsaved people, so he couldn't give the devil permission. How can the slave give the master permission?
Absolutely. But God also hardened Pharaoh's heart. Both took place. The verses from Romans 1 show us something very similar going on: People reject God repeatedly and harden their hearts against him, and he responds by giving them over to their depravity so they become worse.
I believe, if I'm not mistaken, that's a translation of the Hebrew tetragrammaton, the name of God in Hebrew, which we sometimes translate as "Yahweh." It's a different word than "adonai" which is also translated "Lord" though not all in capital letters. The tetragrammaton was considered the most sacred name for God by the Jews, and I believe it was not permitted even to be spoken for this reason. This is probably why it is set in all capitals in our Bibles.
But then you'd have to explain why the text says that God was doing some hardening of Pharaoh's heart, which takes us full circle to my linguistic question, which I asked earlier.
You're welcome.
Off the top of my head--and I'm kind of shooting from the hip on this one--I'd suggest that God commanded them to go into Egypt so that he could one day be their salvation by setting them free from Egypt.
I for one have doubts about how many Israelites were actually trusting God to free them, seeing how they fell miserably in the desert due to unbelief.
Yes, Paul describes this in Romans 9--and says a lot more, too:
14What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15For he says to Moses,
"I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." 16It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. 17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." 18Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.
Note v. 17: God raised up Pharaoh specifically to display his divine power and for his name to be proclaimed. But note also v. 18: God hardens whom he wants to harden.
Hmmm ... I see now where you are coming from . I can only say , and I just don't seem to get around the word " harden " , can we say that He makes people subborn ? I don't know ... You really got me there, Der Pilger. I think I have to raise the white flag ..... He he :israel::israel:
Thanks for the good study . It is refreshing . God Bless.
It looks like this topic might have been resolved, but I will put my two cents in anyways.
1. The whole purpose of everything that is, was, and will be is to glorify God.
2. We should not try to judge what God does or does not do. I believe Paul refers to this in Romans as a pot trying to say something to the potter. It just is not our place. We can try to observe him, read his word, etc., but ultimately it is God who is omnipotent and who gets to (and can) call the shots. The sooner we accept this, the sooner we will find peace with the way things are in the world and just trust God has a plan.
3. Don't get offended at the Bible or anything that is in it. When you allow emotions to influence your interpretation of the Word of God, it just does not come out right. You have to take the Bible at face value and do not allow yourself to change it to fit your own ideas. It is hard, I know. I catch myself all the time allowing my own bias to change what the Word says. Every time, I have to correct myself, or else I face the consequences. Its a process of God sharpening me, and I am not ashamed of it. I am glad that God takes the time to care about me at all. I don't remember that everyday, but it always comes back to me.
4. I am glad that people on here can discuss things without getting hot headed...and even concede a point to one another when they realize they are wrong. Too often in the church, people get caught up in their own pride and will not admit when they are wrong. This trait is pulling us down as a church, and I pray that it will end. Maybe it can start here
I am quite thankful to be a part of this community.
Yours in Christ,
David
1. The whole purpose of everything that is, was, and will be is to glorify God.
2. We should not try to judge what God does or does not do. I believe Paul refers to this in Romans as a pot trying to say something to the potter. It just is not our place. We can try to observe him, read his word, etc., but ultimately it is God who is omnipotent and who gets to (and can) call the shots. The sooner we accept this, the sooner we will find peace with the way things are in the world and just trust God has a plan.
3. Don't get offended at the Bible or anything that is in it. When you allow emotions to influence your interpretation of the Word of God, it just does not come out right. You have to take the Bible at face value and do not allow yourself to change it to fit your own ideas. It is hard, I know. I catch myself all the time allowing my own bias to change what the Word says. Every time, I have to correct myself, or else I face the consequences. Its a process of God sharpening me, and I am not ashamed of it. I am glad that God takes the time to care about me at all. I don't remember that everyday, but it always comes back to me.
4. I am glad that people on here can discuss things without getting hot headed...and even concede a point to one another when they realize they are wrong. Too often in the church, people get caught up in their own pride and will not admit when they are wrong. This trait is pulling us down as a church, and I pray that it will end. Maybe it can start here
I am quite thankful to be a part of this community.
Yours in Christ,
David
No need to raise the white flag--it wasn't a battle, just a discussion.
I know that I was just trying to put a little of my humour into the post .... Sometimes , I am misunderstood and it is hard discussing without really talking to the person but I really do appreciate our discussion and the fact that we can discuss logiically . That is the way Christians should be just accepting and understanding but I am sorry to say there are a lot who are not like that .
God Bless, Der Pilger
Thanks for that , David ... We really appreciate those comments as they mean so much to CFS staff as that is our objective as well . I will pass that on to all the staff incase they did not see it .
I am glad that people on here can discuss things without getting hot headed...and even concede a point to one another when they realize they are wrong. Too often in the church, people get caught up in their own pride and will not admit when they are wrong. This trait is pulling us down as a church, and I pray that it will end. Maybe it can start here
I am quite thankful to be a part of this community.
Yours in Christ,
David
Once again people who rejected Gods knowledge wisdom and guidance are given over to depravity. They made the first move to reject God, this must be remembered. Just as Pharaoh made the first move to resist, and just as in the future those who reject the love of the truth will be given over to the great deception of the Lawless one.
All Praise The Ancient Of Days
This is true Adstar . And this again why I can say that it is not God who does the choosing . It is man and woman. And after that God is the one who does the judging .
By the way Adstar are you ok in the part of Australia where you are living or have you been affected by the fire. ?:groupray:
Ah, now you're getting into a somewhat different topic. I'm almost certain we won't resolve this here, since this debate has raged for centuries, but for what it's worth: I'm convinced that scripture teaches--abundantly--that God definitely does the choosing, and that beforehand. It's a tough teaching, and it rubs our nature the wrong way because we like to think that we are sovereign, but the fact is that the very same passage in Romans 9 also has this to say:
10And not only this, but there was Rebekah also, when she had conceived twins by one man, our father Isaac; 11for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God's purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls,
12it was said to her, "THE OLDER WILL SERVE THE YOUNGER."
13Just as it is written, "JACOB I LOVED, BUT ESAU I HATED."
14What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be!
15For He says to Moses, "I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION."
16So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.
What do you think of this passage, particularly the emphasized parts?
DP
Hi DP.... Yes I see that and of course I understand that God 's will is sovreign and He is all knowing and He does know us even before we were knit in our mother's womb .and His will is not our will.
Our Sovreign God told Moses that He would show mercy where He wants to show mercy ,. although no one deserves or can earn his mercy .
I guess if we go back to Genesis 25:23 ..... The Lord told Rebekah that the struggle was between two nations and that one group would be stronger than the other .
Yes it depends on God's will and God knows also the shoices we make whether good or bad but in His mercy He will always forgive us .Mercy is the deepest gesture of kindness towards us .
I am sorry , I seem to be going around in a circle but cannot explain it any better than that .
So I guess that goes back to the scripture where it says God makes choices to show His power so that His name will be talked about in all the earth and that He even chooses the President of the U. S or the Prime Minister of Canada for a reason and we do not know that reason because He is God . He would not make unwise choices .
So the 18th verse it says that God shows mercy where He wants to show mercy , and He makes stubborn the people he wants to make stubborn .
Woa ... I think I have gone full circle here and am finding it difficult to understand God's ways . But then He told us His ways are not our ways and His thoughts are not our thoughts so me in my natural way of thinking just can't seem to grasp this but need to accept that I don't always understand God's ways ,neither His will.
Good study thanks .... You really have me thinking and asking the Holy Spirit. to give me new wisdom.
least in the kingdom
Inactive
If God made His choices based on our forseen actions, then it would no longer be of Grace but according to our works...that would give us an excuse to boast. We are helpless and He is the 'Lord our Righteousness,' 'Salvation is from the Lord.' A leapord cannot change his spots and there is no one righteous, no not one, for all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.
Man likes to think that all can of their own will go to heaven, but,
"You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you." John 15:16
In Amos 3:2, God says to His chosen people;
"You only have I chosen among all the families of the earth; Therefore I will punish you for all your iniquities."
Man is responsibe and told to seek the Lord, yet scricpture tells us no one seeks Him or chooses Him. Many are called, few are chosen. If God did not call me, and put a new spirit in me, a willing Spirit, I would have remained hardend against Him. Why He chose to have mercy on me? I don't know but I thank God for it. He will share His Glory with no one. I shall glorify Him for every part of His saving me. Now if I was rocky soil and fell away, that would be no fault of God's.
"...Every plant which My heavenly Father did not plant shall be uprooted."
Matthew 15:13
Sovergein grace strips away a man's pride. He realizes he is nothing but dust, and that it is the Lord who wills, calls, seeks, and saves His sheep. He is the Potter and I am the clay. I pray that I will be conformed to His Will, made submissive to Him, and that He blesses me and keeps me. I believe He Will, although I have done nothing to deserve anything other than His justice and Wrath, and I thank Him for His mercy, and am disgusted with the times pride rises up within me.
Apart from Him I can do nothing. A far better man than I said 'I am a worm and not a man,' and yet another said 'Woe is me because I am a man of unclean lips!,' and another said 'Wretched man that I am!' and John the Baptist of Jesus said, "It is He who comes after me, the thong of whose sandal I am not worthy to untie." John 1:27
and then I nod my head....
"For all of us have become like one who is unclean, And all our righteous deeds are like a filthy garment; And all of us wither like a leaf, And our iniquities, like the wind, take us away." Isaiah 64:6
"So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy. "
...humbling....
Man likes to think that all can of their own will go to heaven, but,
"You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you." John 15:16
In Amos 3:2, God says to His chosen people;
"You only have I chosen among all the families of the earth; Therefore I will punish you for all your iniquities."
Man is responsibe and told to seek the Lord, yet scricpture tells us no one seeks Him or chooses Him. Many are called, few are chosen. If God did not call me, and put a new spirit in me, a willing Spirit, I would have remained hardend against Him. Why He chose to have mercy on me? I don't know but I thank God for it. He will share His Glory with no one. I shall glorify Him for every part of His saving me. Now if I was rocky soil and fell away, that would be no fault of God's.
"...Every plant which My heavenly Father did not plant shall be uprooted."
Matthew 15:13
Sovergein grace strips away a man's pride. He realizes he is nothing but dust, and that it is the Lord who wills, calls, seeks, and saves His sheep. He is the Potter and I am the clay. I pray that I will be conformed to His Will, made submissive to Him, and that He blesses me and keeps me. I believe He Will, although I have done nothing to deserve anything other than His justice and Wrath, and I thank Him for His mercy, and am disgusted with the times pride rises up within me.
Apart from Him I can do nothing. A far better man than I said 'I am a worm and not a man,' and yet another said 'Woe is me because I am a man of unclean lips!,' and another said 'Wretched man that I am!' and John the Baptist of Jesus said, "It is He who comes after me, the thong of whose sandal I am not worthy to untie." John 1:27
and then I nod my head....
"For all of us have become like one who is unclean, And all our righteous deeds are like a filthy garment; And all of us wither like a leaf, And our iniquities, like the wind, take us away." Isaiah 64:6
"So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy. "
...humbling....
Yes, but I don't see any indication in the passage in Rom. 9 that Paul is talking about nations or groups of people. He refers to two twins, and later in the passage he refers to Pharaoh--an individual man.
Yes, those who are born again will receive mercy. I agree; but that is a different topic.
It's okay. This is a difficult subject and not easily figured out.
Join the club.
Precisely! I'm glad you said this. We are not always commanded to understand God's word and ways; we are expected, though, to submit to scripture and believe what is written.
DP
I'd say I agree with that for the most part, but I would only ask this: What exactly do you mean by "free will"?
I live in the state of New South Wales, it borders the State of Victoria where the fires have caused the great loss of life. There are fires in N.S.W but they are normal for most of Australia during the dry hot summer. My brother lives in Victoria but he lives close to the capital Melbourne and that is down the bottom of Victoria so he is unaffected by the fires.
So all is well with me thanks be to God.
All Praise The Ancient Of Days