Except A Man Be A Churchgoer...

[Musicmaster]

Jesus was a Jew. His father's house wasn't a Christian church but a synagogue.

Everyone has a unique relationship with the father . If some feel led to a church building for community so be it.

I don't believe God will condemn those who find nature, the outdoors, Bible study groups meeting in different houses throughout the month, worthy of condemnation because we didn't meet in a traditional church.

Even though I no longer attend and support the institutional model, models for meeting, all of which are flawed in various ways because of fallen human's involvements, plans, envisionments, et al, can be used of the Lord. The institutional model has been used mightily by the Lord, irrespective of man's having created it and exercising control over it, and man standing in its limelight with all his silly titles and positional elevation above all the rest of the people who plop their "tithe" into the passing plate.

In the house churches I have seen and do attend now, there are psalms, songs, hymns, praises, teaching...everything Major talked about, with two other items that the institutional model rarely does, which is a meal together and open sharing, apart from band-aid programs. We sometimes go out into the trees, whatever we so desire, because the gathering of believers, the primary purpose, is not for praise, and not for worship, as is the common and historic beliefs. Those are good things to do corporately, but they are not the sum total of purpose the Lord had in mind, and that is the one thing that's disallowed in the institutional model in 99.999999% of all church organizations.

Sorry. Just had to interject some thoughts. The prime purpose scripture specifically mentions of the purpose for the gathering...mutual edification. I never experienced that looking at the backs of other people's heads throughout the main gathering. Oh, I could launch into the history behind "cell groups" and such, and talk about how and why they came about as the motivation behind them, but will leave that for now.

Where I stand in it all, however, is that for those who feel they are blessed in any of the models, and you are meeting the One, true Lord there, then go for it. What I encourage the most is that you find a group who practices what scripture reveals as the prime purpose for the gathering, which is mutual edification.

MM

 

[Major]

Even though I no longer attend and support the institutional model, models for meeting, all of which are flawed in various ways because of fallen human's involvements, plans, envisionments, et al, can be used of the Lord. The institutional model has been used mightily by the Lord, irrespective of man's having created it and exercising control over it, and man standing in its limelight with all his silly titles and positional elevation above all the rest of the people who plop their "tithe" into the passing plate.

In the house churches I have seen and do attend now, there are psalms, songs, hymns, praises, teaching...everything Major talked about, with two other items that the institutional model rarely does, which is a meal together and open sharing, apart from band-aid programs. We sometimes go out into the trees, whatever we so desire, because the gathering of believers, the primary purpose, is not for praise, and not for worship, as is the common and historic beliefs. Those are good things to do corporately, but they are not the sum total of purpose the Lord had in mind, and that is the one thing that's disallowed in the institutional model in 99.999999% of all church organizations.

Sorry. Just had to interject some thoughts. The prime purpose scripture specifically mentions of the purpose for the gathering...mutual edification. I never experienced that looking at the backs of other people's heads throughout the main gathering. Oh, I could launch into the history behind "cell groups" and such, and talk about how and why they came about as the motivation behind them, but will leave that for now.

Where I stand in it all, however, is that for those who feel they are blessed in any of the models, and you are meeting the One, true Lord there, then go for it. What I encourage the most is that you find a group who practices what scripture reveals as the prime purpose for the gathering, which is mutual edification.

MM

I have all the respect in the world for you, but in this case I can not agree.

I guess that is because I have spent 50 years in the "institutional Church"!

I believe that going to church is something we are told to do and are supposed to do. We say we can worship God on the boat and at the football game but lets be honest........do we???? NOT IN MY OPINION!

We go to a football to watch a football game.
We go fishing on a boat to fish.
We go to the beach to swim and get sun burned.

Now can we at some point while at those events, pause and pray or say. Thank you God for a great day! Of course we can but IMHO that is not a worship service.

 

[BibleLover]

Even though I no longer attend and support the institutional model, models for meeting, all of which are flawed in various ways because of fallen human's involvements, plans, envisionments, et al, can be used of the Lord. The institutional model has been used mightily by the Lord, irrespective of man's having created it and exercising control over it, and man standing in its limelight with all his silly titles and positional elevation above all the rest of the people who plop their "tithe" into the passing plate.

In the house churches I have seen and do attend now, there are psalms, songs, hymns, praises, teaching...everything Major talked about, with two other items that the institutional model rarely does, which is a meal together and open sharing, apart from band-aid programs. We sometimes go out into the trees, whatever we so desire, because the gathering of believers, the primary purpose, is not for praise, and not for worship, as is the common and historic beliefs. Those are good things to do corporately, but they are not the sum total of purpose the Lord had in mind, and that is the one thing that's disallowed in the institutional model in 99.999999% of all church organizations.

Sorry. Just had to interject some thoughts. The prime purpose scripture specifically mentions of the purpose for the gathering...mutual edification. I never experienced that looking at the backs of other people's heads throughout the main gathering. Oh, I could launch into the history behind "cell groups" and such, and talk about how and why they came about as the motivation behind them, but will leave that for now.

Where I stand in it all, however, is that for those who feel they are blessed in any of the models, and you are meeting the One, true Lord there, then go for it. What I encourage the most is that you find a group who practices what scripture reveals as the prime purpose for the gathering, which is mutual edification.

MM

Wherever 2 or more are gathered in his name, he is there.

In China, the church congregations that meet in church buildings are the official state-sponsored apostate churches. The real Christians there meet in house churches.

The important thing is the assembling together of the saints, not necessarily the location of that assembly.

I've attended outdoor services in the woods and in the desert as well as hidden services hidden within a large tent because Christian worship was forbidden in Saudi Arabia.

 

[Musicmaster]

I have all the respect in the world for you, but in this case I can not agree.

I guess that is because I have spent 50 years in the "institutional Church"!

I believe that going to church is something we are told to do and are supposed to do. We say we can worship God on the boat and at the football game but lets be honest........do we???? NOT IN MY OPINION!

We go to a football to watch a football game.
We go fishing on a boat to fish.
We go to the beach to swim and get sun burned.

Now can we at some point while at those events, pause and pray or say. Thank you God for a great day! Of course we can but IMHO that is not a worship service.

Well, I don't think we're so far apart so as to be on opposite ends of the spectrum.

However, since I'm limiting myself on the spectrum of discussions, I'll let others step in and speak their minds about all this. I don't want to offend some highly sensitive folks who take offense at criticisms of what they've known and experienced throughout the years of their lives as what they consider positive and good in every respect.

MM

 

[Musicmaster]

Wherever 2 or more are gathered in his name, he is there.

In China, the church congregations that meet in church buildings are the official state-sponsored apostate churches. The real Christians there meet in house churches.

The important thing is the assembling together of the saints, not necessarily the location of that assembly.

I've attended outdoor services in the woods and in the desert as well as hidden services hidden within a large tent because Christian worship was forbidden in Saudi Arabia.

That's what's so amazingly wonderful about what Jesus said to the Samaritan woman, in that true worship is that which is done in spirit and truth, not in temples or any other special purpose facility or liturgy. The terms "spirit and in truth" describe a way of life, not some dead traditions enclosed in the wrappings of professional liturgies and programs. As a way of life, they can and should be a never-ending way of life, throughout each and every day.


To me, worship isn't something one flips on like they would a light switch. Worship, as a way of life, lived in the Spirit, is a never-ending means by which we live as followers of Christ.

MM

 

[forgiven61]

+
there are Churches out there trying to do the right thing. let the Holy spirit lead . since covid Church attendance has dropped churches have closed up. for some reason this message is falling by the wayside !!!! something goes wrong in a church that people dont agree with. they leave just to be leaving.

Going to Church DOES not make you saved or keep you saved. every where in the Bible they had a assembly. i would just about bet a soda that they would have loved to had a building to sit in with pews ,
even king David said i was glad when they said let us go to the house of the Lord. i also realize this is a one sides post ! read this parable/ story


A lady went to the Pastor and said

... "I won’t be attending Church anymore."
He said, "May I ask why??"
She said, "I see people on their cell phones during the service, some are gossiping, some just ain’t living right, they are all just hypocrites."
The Pastor got silent and he said, "Ok... But can I ask you to do something for me before you make your final decision?"
She said, "What’s that?"
He said, "Take a glass of water and walk around the Church 2 times and don’t let any water fall out the glass."
She said, "Yes I can do that."
She came back and said "It’s done."
He asked her 3 questions:
1. Did you see anybody on their phone?
2. Did you see anybody gossiping?
3. Was anybody living wrong?
She said, "I didn’t see anything because I was so focused on this glass, so the water wouldn’t fall."
He told her, "When you come to Church, you should be just that focused on God , so that you don’t fall.That’s why Jesus said 'Follow me.' He did not say follow Christians. Don’t let your relationship with God be determined by how others relate with God. Let it be determined by how focused YOU are on God.

 

[forgiven61]

not some dead traditions enclosed in the wrappings of professional liturgies and programs.

i dont know what soured you BUT not all church services are dead. its like my brother n law told him why he quit church. he wasn't getting anything out of it. if your not hungering or thirsting . dont Bring a BIble to follow the reading of the scriptures one could be part of the dead Church Jeremiah tells us to break up our fallow ground

 

[LearningToLetGo]

I love a good church, especially cathedrals. I go there off-hours and sit in the pews and pray. The stained glass and vaulted ceilings with their subtle echos are calming. I also enjoy Sunday church, but I admit I rarely go unless a friend or family member invites me.

 

[Musicmaster]

I love a good church, especially cathedrals. I go there off-hours and sit in the pews and pray. The stained glass and vaulted ceilings with their subtle echos are calming. I also enjoy Sunday church, but I admit I rarely go unless a friend or family member invites me.

I'd heard that the architectural reasoning behind vaulted ceilings in cathedrals was/is to create the effect of God being so lofty and so WAAAAAY up there, and us so lowly and filthy, and therefore WAAAAAY down here, thus the separation distance being an intentional sensory deprivation against any mere congregant member daring to think they have any closeness to God.

It's wonderful that the stupidity of mankind has no power to push the Lord away from us. When they claim God has been removed from public schools, I'd really like to meet the one who thinks he has accomplished such a feat, because such an individual would have to be shining brighter than the Lord Most High, and empowered beyond that of God, to push Him out of public schools, or anywhere else for that matter.

MM

 

[Major]

Well, I don't think we're so far apart so as to be on opposite ends of the spectrum.

However, since I'm limiting myself on the spectrum of discussions, I'll let others step in and speak their minds about all this. I don't want to offend some highly sensitive folks who take offense at criticisms of what they've known and experienced throughout the years of their lives as what they consider positive and good in every respect.

MM

We are NOT far apart on anything!

I agree brother.........I sit and ponder about what I am about to post so that I do not offend any of our highly sensitive and liberal friends..

 

[Major]

I love a good church, especially cathedrals. I go there off-hours and sit in the pews and pray. The stained glass and vaulted ceilings with their subtle echos are calming. I also enjoy Sunday church, but I admit I rarely go unless a friend or family member invites me.

I would like to invite you to go to church with me this Sunday. I will be glad to come by and pick you up and in fact I will even buy you lunch afterwards!!!!!!

 

[Major]

That's what's so amazingly wonderful about what Jesus said to the Samaritan woman, in that true worship is that which is done in spirit and truth, not in temples or any other special purpose facility or liturgy. The terms "spirit and in truth" describe a way of life, not some dead traditions enclosed in the wrappings of professional liturgies and programs. As a way of life, they can and should be a never-ending way of life, throughout each and every day.


To me, worship isn't something one flips on like they would a light switch. Worship, as a way of life, lived in the Spirit, is a never-ending means by which we live as followers of Christ.

MM

I agree totally!

Christianity is NOT something we do! It is what we allow Christ to do through us!

But consider this life fact........every job, every position, every occupation, every thing we do has a SRARTING POINT or A PLACE OF CONSIDERATION!

By that I mean an OFFICE!!!

Every store has a selling floor. But it also has an OFFICE.
Every hospital has an ER. But it also has a Dr. OFICE
Every sports team plays on a field or in a building. But there is also LOCKER/OFFICE attached.
Every auto repair shop has a work bay. But there is also an OFFICE.

I can go on and on but I think the point is clear. We as Christians should be able to report or go to the OFFICE so as to get re-charged or taught or informed on what it is that we are to do. TO ME........as a Christian, that is the CHURCH!

We meet in the OFFICE. We get told what is going on and what we need to do and how to do it. We get excited about what it is we are Allowed to do for God.

 

[forgiven61]

this a private post ? or by invitation only

 

[Major]

I'd heard that the architectural reasoning behind vaulted ceilings in cathedrals was/is to create the effect of God being so lofty and so WAAAAAY up there, and us so lowly and filthy, and therefore WAAAAAY down here, thus the separation distance being an intentional sensory deprivation against any mere congregant member daring to think they have any closeness to God.

It's wonderful that the stupidity of mankind has no power to push the Lord away from us. When they claim God has been removed from public schools, I'd really like to meet the one who thinks he has accomplished such a feat, because such an individual would have to be shining brighter than the Lord Most High, and empowered beyond that of God, to push Him out of public schools, or anywhere else for that matter.

MM

Interesting thought.

Seems like it is the Catholics who have really high ceilings.

Could it be that the soaring heights provided a dramatic interior which served to reinforce the power of the church.

 

[forgiven61]

 

[bobinfaith]

There's a verse that says God is not found in structures built by mortal hands. So I guess that means going to church isn't mandatory. Then there's that teaching that tells us the Eklesia, the believers, are the actual church of the Christ. At least I think I'm right about that. I like that idea because I've attended a few churches and it wasn't what I'd think would be a pleasing thing to God. Bad pastors, hypocrites, perverts. Not a churchy atmosphere to say the least.

Hello Baby Finch;

I came across your post in this topic and wanted to ask that we look at Except A Man Be A Churchgoer...from another angle.

Whether there is Scripture that literally says God is not within the confines of a building built by humans, therefore, does this mean going to church isn't mandatory? Or does this give us reason to worship the Lord outside the confines of gathering with other broken believers as One?

Many express that we don't have to sit with other hypocritical people, or sit in a service with a stuffy order or worship, and so on.

I don't blow trumpets and announce the sins of my life, but I can probably name a list of people who may not want to attend Church because of me. But what difference does that make? Shouldn't we desire to be with God, regardless of ourselves?

In Acts 1, the Upper Room, not a building, had their first worship service of about 120 praying with one voice and agreement, leading the Holy Spirit to fill the whole house reference Acts 2.

Read and listen to this man's lament in the building built by man.

In 1 Chronicles 17:12-17, 12 Behold, these are the wicked; always at ease, they increase in riches. 13 All in vain have I kept my heart clean and washed my hands in innocence. 14 For all the day long I have been stricken and rebuked every morning. 15 If I had said, “I will speak thus,” I would have betrayed the generation of your children. 16 But when I thought how to understand this, it seemed to me a wearisome task, 17 until I went into the sanctuary of God; then I discerned their end.

When Asaph wrote 1 Chronicles 17 he was a Levite and Prophet who served David as a chief music leader. In other words he was on the worship team, lifting up songs as the worshiper's gift to God in His house. Asaph was also a man of despair over the prosperity of the wicked. He was concerned over crisis in his life despite his great love and desire for God.

When Asaph went into the house of the Lord (sanctuary) he began to gain wisdom and perspective from God, thus Asaph began to understand. But it wasn't Asaph alone but the benefit of the other worshipers (the Church) who attended and could relate, but also offer their love, encouragement, support and growth in faith to Asaph.

When we blame bad pastors, coexist with other hypocrites or the most extreme kind of pervert, gives us just reason not to attend a Church building. The Truth is, we're all hypocrites! Some have horrible pasts of sin, crime, infidelity, perversion, murder, dependency on drugs or alcohol, and so on, we're all sinners.

I've been told I'm a bad pastor. It hurt and it should.

Do we think we're telling God something about the building that He doesn't already know? God definitely knows His House and each one of us who attend. Nobody is exempt.

The Good News is Jesus encourages us to go to Church for the same reasons Asaph was in the sanctuary of God. When we gather together to pray, worship and lift songs, God inhabits our praises. When we hear the Word of God, it's the Truth even if we don't want to receive it.

Three weeks ago we attended worship and the preacher gave a poor sermon. I confessed this to God but I turned my heart around and prayed for God to guide this elderly pastor in his future sermons. Three weeks later we're still attending Church.

Whenever we attend Church though we may not be in the mood or there is another event going on, it is called a sacrifice.

When we attend Church God can bring out everyone's sinful convictions leading us to seek repentance by faith.

Outside of Church new friendships are formed, prayers are communicated to each other and visitations are healthy.

God understands some of us cannot physically go to Church. God can come to us for He dwells in our homes. Others can visit. Afterall, it is He who blessed us with our place of refuge.

If we are attending a building that humans built, a home Church, in the forest, camp site, we never assume putting limitations on where to meet God as One Body. God, not man, establishes where His people can draw close to Him just as God draws close and embraces us for His glory and Great Love.

God bless you, Baby Finch and your family,

 

[Musicmaster]

Bob, those are some interesting thoughts. One cannot argue the dynamics the Lord exercises in all His creation, and therefore the multitudes of uses the Lord engaged through the works of His own hands. He reaches deep into lives, whether they be in attendance of the institutional model or any other model.

One thing stands out the most in my mind about this topic: BEING the Church is perhaps the hardest part in this life as we swim through the muck and mire of a sinful world.

GOING to some church organizational meeting is easy, but BEING the Church in a dark world is indeed what Paul had in mind when he spoke of the tremendouns need for mutual edification, which is so necessary in our daily success in life; to keep it immersed in the depths and power of Christ, and thus walking by faith.

A few weeks ago, I visited a Baptist church organization just up the street, and left that place after only ten minutes because of the horrid compromise with the world that I saw going on in that place, just in the Sunday school class I walked into. I could indeed have overlooked the thing, but when one's mind is steeped and thoroughly accepting of the truths of Christ, and the teachings of His apostles, and then being faced with the hypocrisies of professing believers who will not listen to, nor countenance, sound doctrine, it's futile to speak the truth in love, and expect them to listen and adhere to the words of the Lord. Besides, they had men standing about ready to escort "troublemakers" out the front door, post haste. I had no intention of testing that.

I had one thing ringing through my mind: ICHABOD! ICHABOD! ICHABOD!

That is the resounding declaration I am observing in all the local church organizations. Some have said to me, "Just keep looking. There's got to be one out there that will appeal to your likes."

(smile) They are indeed deceived to think that it's about finding what I "like." I don't want what I "like," I want what the Lord mandated. Besides I'm not at all interested in supporting any of many, many luxuries afforded by those facilities. My giving is directed toward the meeting of needs, as is envisioned within the epistles and the book of Acts. Communal facilities are luxuries that are soon to be, and have already been, taken away from all TRUE believers. The mass exodus from churchianity, contrary to the blind and indifferent claims from inferior publications like Christianity Today, has more to do with the departure from biblical truth. Christianity Today fears its loss of institutional support from its institutionally-minded readership.

So, yes, Bob, I fully understand that there are a few gems out there that have not yet compromised with the world, but we are finding ourselves faced more and more with the intrusions of the world into those institutions. I saw firsthand an army of local pastors successfully shutting down a biblical-based church organization of which I was a part, only because that organization was gaining more and more of their membership (only by word of mouth, not advertising), and those evil, wicked pastors were not about to sit by idly while their milk-toast and wet noodle preaching drove their own audience away into another place that was biblical and consistent with the Spirit of the Lord and TRUE fellowship face to face rather than the backs of each other's heads in the main gathering.

Sorry to hear that anyone would say that you or anyone else is a "bad pastor." Not sure what the basis of that was, but it's guaranteed that even being consistent with the Bible in every way, we will find ourselves accused. So long as our consciences are clear, in that we are serving only the Lord rather than ourselves, those criticisms are like water on a duck's back to me!

Blessings to you, brother.

MM