Faith and Works

[blueskies]

Is a strong personal Faith enough to see us all to the Kingdom, or, is it by a combination of Faith + Works that we shall be truly known to the Father?

Ephesians 2:8-9 KJV
8] For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: [9] Not of works, lest any man should boast.

John 6:28-29 KJV
28]Then they said to Him, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?” [29] Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent."

Galatians 2:16 KJV
16] Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Clear enough.
But then there’s James:

James 2:14 KJV
2] What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

James 2:17-18 KJV
17] Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18] Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

James 2:24 KJV
2] Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Is James at odds with salvation by “Faith Alone”. Perhaps he is saying there can be no good works unless there is already Faith (trust, belief) in God? However, I’ve known some kind and generous non-believers and some really stingy and mean professed Christians.

Thoughts?

 

[forgiven61]

Is James at odds with salvation by “Faith Alone”

no basically in a nut shell faith works.. the works we do by faith w/o faith it is impossible to please God..

Perhaps he is saying there can be no good works unless there is already Faith (trust, belief) in God?

exactly

 

[Siloam]

is it by a combination of Faith + Works that we shall be truly known to the Father?

It is by faith that we are saved.

It is by our works that our Father (and His Son) is made known to others.

The Father already knows the heart and soul of each of us.

 

[Dave F.]

I think James is saying that we need to show our faith through our works. If someone needs help and you are able to provide that help, but instead you just say Jesus loves you...what does that show that person? If you provide that help and say Jesus loves you, you show the love of Christ through your action.

 

[Derek88]

Is a strong personal Faith enough to see us all to the Kingdom, or, is it by a combination of Faith + Works that we shall be truly known to the Father?

Ephesians 2:8-9 KJV
8] For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: [9] Not of works, lest any man should boast.

John 6:28-29 KJV
28]Then they said to Him, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?” [29] Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent."

Galatians 2:16 KJV
16] Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Clear enough.
But then there’s James:

James 2:14 KJV
2] What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

James 2:17-18 KJV
17] Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18] Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

James 2:24 KJV
2] Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Is James at odds with salvation by “Faith Alone”. Perhaps he is saying there can be no good works unless there is already Faith (trust, belief) in God? However, I’ve known some kind and generous non-believers and some really stingy and mean professed Christians.

Thoughts?

Good study on works and faith.
I believe that if a person say's that they are saved, and have no works, ( true repentance, born-again experience, fruit of the spirit, obedience to the word ) then it's most evident, that they have not been saved.

 

[Major]

Is a strong personal Faith enough to see us all to the Kingdom, or, is it by a combination of Faith + Works that we shall be truly known to the Father?

Ephesians 2:8-9 KJV
8] For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: [9] Not of works, lest any man should boast.

John 6:28-29 KJV
28]Then they said to Him, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?” [29] Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent."

Galatians 2:16 KJV
16] Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Clear enough.
But then there’s James:

James 2:14 KJV
2] What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

James 2:17-18 KJV
17] Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18] Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

James 2:24 KJV
2] Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Is James at odds with salvation by “Faith Alone”. Perhaps he is saying there can be no good works unless there is already Faith (trust, belief) in God? However, I’ve known some kind and generous non-believers and some really stingy and mean professed Christians.

Thoughts?

We are saved by faith alone. (Period)! No works, no deeds, no law...nothing but faith in Christ!

Is James at odds with Paul over works? NO !

Romans 3:28: .......
“A person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law.”

Works are excluded as the basis of salvation—otherwise people could boast about what they have done. Salvation by grace through faith highlights the amazing and comforting truth that salvation is the Lord’s work, not ours.

Faith alone justifies, but only the kind of faith that inevitably produces good works. Now, such good works aren’t the basis of justification; indeed, they can’t be, for one sin makes you a lawbreaker (Jas. 2:10–11). Good works can’t function as the foundation of our justification because God demands perfection, and even after we are converted we continue to sin.

Why do Paul and James sound so different? Why does it appear at first glance they contradict? We need to remember that letters were written to specific situations facing specific churches.

Paul and James actually compliment each other in that both Paul and James believed such works were the fruit of saving faith, not the root. In other words......true faith that leads to salvation WILL lead to good works or it is not saving faith at all but religion.

 

[JamesB]

It depends on what one means by "works". To me it means living the Christian life. Our actions, whatever they are, should be motivated by the Holy Spirit and guided by loving our neighbor. It don't believe that we should behave to "score points" with God.

 

[forgiven61]

It depends on what one means by "works". To me it means living the Christian life. Our actions, whatever they are, should be motivated by the Holy Spirit and guided by loving our neighbor. It don't believe that we should behave to "score points" with God.

your right just some think works gives us salvation Grace is the divine favor of God.. many take james out of context . its rather easy to understand

 

[Big Moose]

It is by grace thru faith we are saved. Period. Works are the fruit we will be known by as a Christian. Read the verses in the Bible about good fruit and the fruit of the Spirit. These are the good works that are produced by the faith that God has supplied.

 

[crossnote]

James essentially is saying 'words are cheap' show me by your deeds/fruit.

What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
(Jas 2:14)

We need more than to say 'Lord', 'Lord',(Luke 13:25) but possess the Lord we profess...

1 John 5:11-12 (KJV) And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.


I like to say 'we are saved by works'...His Works.

 

[blueskies]

The Father already knows the heart and soul of each of us.

Agreed.
I find this very comforting …and in my case, a bit distressing all at once.

If you provide that help and say Jesus loves you, you show the love of Christ through your action.

So true.

I believe that if a person say's that they are saved, and have no works, ( true repentance, born-again experience, fruit of the spirit, obedience to the word ) then it's most evident, that they have not been saved.

Agreed.

Salvation by grace through faith highlights the amazing and comforting truth that salvation is the Lord’s work, not ours.

Well said Major, it’s always by “Thy will” is it not?

It don't believe that we should behave to "score points" with God.

Yes, He would see right through this and we’d be hypocrites to the Lord.

many take james out of context

I agree.

James essentially is saying 'words are cheap' show me by your deeds/fruit.

Yes, talk is just talk, it is the by the outward stroke or expression of faith that we witnesses for the Lord.

Thank you all and God Bless.

 

[crossnote]

Yes, talk is just talk, it is the by the outward stroke or expression of faith that we witnesses for the Lord.

Thank you all and God Bless.

Which is the fruit of our heart and lips (a work of His Spirit) along with the giving of thanks.

 

[Rictch]

We are saved by faith alone. (Period)! No works, no deeds, no law...nothing but faith in Christ!

Is James at odds with Paul over works? NO !

Romans 3:28: .......
“A person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law.”

Works are excluded as the basis of salvation—otherwise people could boast about what they have done. Salvation by grace through faith highlights the amazing and comforting truth that salvation is the Lord’s work, not ours.

Faith alone justifies, but only the kind of faith that inevitably produces good works. Now, such good works aren’t the basis of justification; indeed, they can’t be, for one sin makes you a lawbreaker (Jas. 2:10–11). Good works can’t function as the foundation of our justification because God demands perfection, and even after we are converted we continue to sin.

Why do Paul and James sound so different? Why does it appear at first glance they contradict? We need to remember that letters were written to specific situations facing specific churches.

Paul and James actually compliment each other in that both Paul and James believed such works were the fruit of saving faith, not the root. In other words......true faith that leads to salvation WILL lead to good works or it is not saving faith at all but religion.

I recently cam across an article on this subject that was interesting, in a sense it said there would be less confusing about the position of law, if the bible was placed in the order it was written. Which made me think that the Holy Spirit saw fit to write it in a particular order?

 

[crossnote]

I recently cam across an article on this subject that was interesting, in a sense it said there would be less confusing about the position of law, if the bible was placed in the order it was written. Which made me think that the Holy Spirit saw fit to write it in a particular order?

Seems though that Abraham (a man justified by faith and considered the Father of the faithful), was noted long before Moses and the giving of the law.

 

[Rictch]

Seems though that Abraham (a man justified by faith and considered the Father of the faithful), was noted long before Moses and the giving of the law.

When you say before Moses was given the law, you mean before it was written down. Genesis 26:5 because Abraham obeyed MY voice & kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, & my laws. Genesis 39:9 Joseph declines the advances of Potiphar's wife & said " How can I do this great wickedness & sin against God. He obviously knew it was against God's laws. One could say the same about Cain & Abel one did it the prescribed way & it was accepted. With Moses & the written down law there was 400 years some 20 generations much was lost as we see with the wanting to worship the calf wile Moses was up on the mountain. God Bless

 

[crossnote]

When you say before Moses was given the law, you mean before it was written down. Genesis 26:5 because Abraham obeyed MY voice & kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, & my laws. Genesis 39:9 Joseph declines the advances of Potiphar's wife & said " How can I do this great wickedness & sin against God. He obviously knew it was against God's laws. One could say the same about Cain & Abel one did it the prescribed way & it was accepted. With Moses & the written down law there was 400 years some 20 generations much was lost as we see with the wanting to worship the calf wile Moses was up on the mountain. God Bles

When I mentioned Abraham it was in relation to faith; with Moses, it was in relation to law...
Paul makes this comparison in Galatians...

And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect. For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise. Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.
(Gal 3:17-19)

It seems by what you said above about the Law and the order in which the Bible was written down (post #12), there would be no particular order as it was law from the very beginning, I believe Gal 3 and Hebrews 11 puts the emphasis on faith. Remember Romans 1-3 consign all under sin according to the law.

 

[Rictch]

When I mentioned Abraham it was in relation to faith; with Moses, it was in relation to law...
Paul makes this comparison in Galatians...

And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect. For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise. Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.
(Gal 3:17-19)

It seems by what you said above about the Law and the order in which the Bible was written down (post #12), there would be no particular order as it was law from the very beginning, I believe Gal 3 and Hebrews 11 puts the emphasis on faith. Remember Romans 1-3 consign all under sin according to the law.

100% agree

 

[Major]

When I mentioned Abraham it was in relation to faith; with Moses, it was in relation to law...
Paul makes this comparison in Galatians...

And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect. For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise. Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.
(Gal 3:17-19)

It seems by what you said above about the Law and the order in which the Bible was written down (post #12), there would be no particular order as it was law from the very beginning, I believe Gal 3 and Hebrews 11 puts the emphasis on faith. Remember Romans 1-3 consign all under sin according to the law.

Agreed.

 

[Major]

When you say before Moses was given the law, you mean before it was written down. Genesis 26:5 because Abraham obeyed MY voice & kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, & my laws. Genesis 39:9 Joseph declines the advances of Potiphar's wife & said " How can I do this great wickedness & sin against God. He obviously knew it was against God's laws. One could say the same about Cain & Abel one did it the prescribed way & it was accepted. With Moses & the written down law there was 400 years some 20 generations much was lost as we see with the wanting to worship the calf wile Moses was up on the mountain. God Bless

Yes, Divine Law existed before Moses. Namely, the Adamic covenant, the Noahic covenant, and the Abrahamic covenant.

Divine law is any time God breaks into history and gives commands or instructions. He did this with Adam and Eve, Noah, and Abraham. So divine law was around before Moses.

Nice post!........(Not me but "Rictch)