Feeling Christianity Is Being Oppressed In America?

#21
You might want to think about that one theo.

If an evangelist is told that he can not say a certain thing in a certain place and he disagrees and does so anyway.......is that fanaticism.
Evangelists must obey the laws of the land. They are not above the law, and it does not behoove them to be deliberately antisocial. The Westboro Baptist Churcho_O(n) is deliberately antisocial.

If a preacher is told that a city can not be saved and he goes and preaches the gospel anyway.........is that fanaticism?
That depends on how he preaches the gospel and how sensitive he is to the needs of those he serves. Speak the Truth in love, because without love it ceases to be the Truth! Without love it becomes abuse!

In my lifetime I have been blessed with knowing some very FANATICAL people for Jesus.
I do not doubt that you have! But the fanaticism that compelled our Lord and Saviour to give Himself up on the cross (the kind we can never match) is differerent than the ideas sinful men have about making disciples.
 
#22
Depends on the question. Every atheist in this brainwashed society labels any type of Christian defending his faith, a fanatic.
I can defend my faith without insisting that everyone agree with me. The Christianity vs. Atheism debate never ends because people continue to disagree. It is an unwinnable argument. Spiritual warfare is a very noble and worthwhile thing, but for the sake of my own mental, physical, and spiritual well-being I have to know when enough is enough. It's a war of attrition by which the enemy will wear me down, burn me out, penetrate my armour.
 
#23
Don't be naive. An atheists drawcard is ''belief'' in evolution. Everyone has to believe in something.

A good Christian school would not teach evolution as a science. Would you see them as naive? You do know that you cannot believe in the bible and evolution at the same time.

The truth is the bible. Every sane person should want schools, government and every aspect of society yielding to the truth. It is not a religious rights issue. Christianity dominating everything is logical as it is the most advanced form of knowledge. Science points toward God. If any scientist thinks otherwise he is still in the stone age :) .
I'll get into this in another thread (which I'm sure has been done a hundred times and will be a complete disaster :))

What makes this land great is the historical fact that it was founded upon JUDAO/CHRISTAIN values.

...

Actually the USA is a Christian Church re-location.

The 1st act of the 1st Continental Congress was the approval of the printing of 250 thousand KJV Bibles.

Harvard, Princeton were Christian Seminaries when formed and they taught men to go out teach from the KJV Bible all over the land.
I don't disagree with you that the people who started America were very devout Christians. There's no misconception that they were religious zealots leaving England to enjoy religious freedoms that England wouldn't grant them. So, they founded a country on what they thought was right, and almost everyone in America back then was Christian. They printed bibles, and had Christian Seminaries. There's no disagreement there.

The disagreement comes when you want to say that because the Land of the Free happened to be founded on Christian morals (the vast majority of which are also the morals of every other religion, and even non-religious people who know right from wrong), and you want to say that the people who came over in the first place were Christians, that only Christian religious freedoms should be allowed, and that's neither morally right, nor is it constitutional. Take a look at what you said next, to prove my point.

Every single person who comes to this land can live as they want, where they want but they do not have the ability to tell me what rights I must give up to make them happy. I too am a citizen of the USA. I have been to many forigin countries and almost all of them were NOT bound by the ideas and morals of Christianity.
You are right that nobody has the right to tell you what rights to give up to make them happy. A Hindu doesn't have the right to force you or your child to pray to Shiva in school. But in that exact same way, a Christian doesn't have the right to make a Hindu child pray to God in school. You are both free.

IF this country were a theocracy, and it didn't give the religious freedom that the founding fathers sought to everyone, then it could very well decide which religious was right, and force everyone to believe it. But that's not where we live, and that's not where I want to live.

I have a real problem with ANYONE, whether they be of ANY religion or none at all coming here to the USA and insisting and demanding that their rights be observed concerning that religion.
Aren't those the rights you would want if you went to another country? Aren't those the rights that we should ALL have, in the Land of the Free? Aren't those the rights that our forefathers came to the New World in search of, and established a country upon, believing they had found?
 
#24
Question........
"Aren't those the rights you would want if you went to another country? Aren't those the rights that we should ALL have, in the Land of the Free? Aren't those the rights that our forefathers came to the New World in search of, and established a country upon, believing they had found?"

BUT........I am NOT in another country and that is the point at least from my perspective.
IF...........I went to Turkey, by choice, I would conform to the laws and realities of that country, not ask it to change to me.

And our country was never intended to be free from our religion IMHO. It was intended that the religion would be free from the government.

Thomas Jefferson in his letter to the Danbury Baptists when they wanted a national day of prayer:

  • "Believing that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legislative powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their Legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between Church and State." -- Thomas Jefferson to Danbury Baptists, 1802.
Some Christians have argued that this wall is "one-way," that the state may not interfere with religion, but religion may interfere with the state.

I glad we agree on the Christian heritage we have.
 
#25
Theo said.................
"Evangelists must obey the laws of the land. They are not above the law, and it does not behoove them to be deliberately antisocial. The Westboro Baptist Churcho_O(n) is deliberately antisocial."

Theo, I am going to have to disagree with you about the Westboro Baptist Church. IMO they are not antisocial!

IMO they are Satanic nut cases and disgust me!!!

I wish and pray that they would remove the name "Baptist".
 
#26
Question........
"Aren't those the rights you would want if you went to another country? Aren't those the rights that we should ALL have, in the Land of the Free? Aren't those the rights that our forefathers came to the New World in search of, and established a country upon, believing they had found?"

BUT........I am NOT in another country and that is the point at least from my perspective.
IF...........I went to Turkey, by choice, I would conform to the laws and realities of that country, not ask it to change to me.
I see what you're saying. If you went to live in a country where they required all children to pray to another God, you would allow your child to do so, and not ask them to leave your child out of it. Either that, or to avoid the hassle you wouldn't go to such a country.

I think America is not the sort of country that I just described, and that it shouldn't force religion on anyone. However, it's become clear that you have a different opinion on the matter, which I will respect, but seeing as we disagree and forums are meant for conversation, let's banter on, shall we?

And our country was never intended to be free from our religion IMHO. It was intended that the religion would be free from the government.

Thomas Jefferson in his letter to the Danbury Baptists when they wanted a national day of prayer:

  • "Believing that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legislative powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their Legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between Church and State." -- Thomas Jefferson to Danbury Baptists, 1802.
Some Christians have argued that this wall is "one-way," that the state may not interfere with religion, but religion may interfere with the state.


I glad we agree on the Christian heritage we have.
I'm going to repeat a part of that letter a few times here for the sake of drama:
Once
...their [American] Legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof...
And again
make no law respecting an establishment of religion
And a third time
an establishment of religion

This letter which you gave to me, seems to support the contrary of your argument.

Major: ...our country was never intended to be free from our religion...
Thomas Jefferson:...their [American] Legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion...
 
#27
Theo said.................
"Evangelists must obey the laws of the land. They are not above the law, and it does not behoove them to be deliberately antisocial. The Westboro Baptist Churcho_O(n) is deliberately antisocial."

Theo, I am going to have to disagree with you about the Westboro Baptist Church. IMO they are not antisocial!

IMO they are Satanic nut cases and disgust me!!!

I wish and pray that they would remove the name "Baptist".
To me it is quite clear that they are still in the flesh. They are convicted by the bible but not at a spiritual level.

They are doing exactly what the gay movements do to us. It is like an eye for an eye on harrassment. I feel it is good to do protests but not at the extremity of their banners / signs. Perhaps their signs have toned down?
 
#28
I have been thinking.

When we the saints are running the earth....does anyone for a second think that the bible and Christianity will not dominate everything? and it will be heaven, a perfect society :). Hence ANY progress toward Christainity dominating everything is better then the opposite...duh?
 
#29
I see what you're saying. If you went to live in a country where they required all children to pray to another God, you would allow your child to do so, and not ask them to leave your child out of it. Either that, or to avoid the hassle you wouldn't go to such a country.

I think America is not the sort of country that I just described, and that it shouldn't force religion on anyone. However, it's become clear that you have a different opinion on the matter, which I will respect, but seeing as we disagree and forums are meant for conversation, let's banter on, shall we?



I'm going to repeat a part of that letter a few times here for the sake of drama:
Once
...their [American] Legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof...
And again
make no law respecting an establishment of religion
And a third time
an establishment of religion

This letter which you gave to me, seems to support the contrary of your argument.

Major: ...our country was never intended to be free from our religion...
Thomas Jefferson:...their [American] Legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion...
NOPE. Religion, faith is something that can not be forced. I think you know that my brother. Faith is something that is rooted in love not force. I never said I would aloow anything........You said that. I would not go to another country to begin with. I had the opportunity many years ago and turned it down just for the reason we are discusssing.

You said.............
Major: ...our country was never intended to be free from our religion...
Major: ...our country was never intended to be free from our religion...
Major: ...our country was never intended to be free from our religion...
Agreed and that is exactly what I said!
Agreed and that is exactly what I said!
Agreed and that is exactly what I said!
 
#30
I would not go to another country to begin with. I had the opportunity many years ago and turned it down just for the reason we are discusssing.
That's what I was getting at. But the topic of another country isn't really relevant, since we're talking about America which is drastically different.


You said.............
Major: ...our country was never intended to be free from our religion...
Major: ...our country was never intended to be free from our religion...
Major: ...our country was never intended to be free from our religion...
Agreed and that is exactly what I said!
Agreed and that is exactly what I said!
Agreed and that is exactly what I said!
That IS what you said, yes. But that's not what Jefferson says.
 
#31
KingJ said:
To me it is quite clear that they are still in the flesh. They are convicted by the bible but not at a spiritual level.
I believe Westboro is using a biblical vocabulary to hide what they really are. Behind the mask of Christianity lies nothing but demonic hatred for all mankind. Senseless, mindless hate. Much like the Big Bad Wolf who tried in vain to fool Little Red Riding Hood by disguising himself as her grandmother (whom he had just devoured).

The Big Bad Wolf is none other than Satan himself. Try as he might, that old serpent cannot convincingly disguise himself as Little Red Riding Hood's grandmother. He must realize that some of us can see through his tricks and glamours with ridiculous ease.
 
#32
So can anyone tell me a way that Christianity is oppressed, where all other religions enjoy freedom? Or does anyone else agree with me that Christians don't actually have it so hard, in that respect?

Christians in North America are NOT or persecuted for the most part. We ought to be, as it would probably increase our committment and resolve. The insidious thing about living in North America is the lack of any real meaningful threat.
The enemy just wants us to be lulled into a false sense of security, and then pick us off one by one through personal trials.
 
#34
My opinions may come across as completely different than anything else you have heard, but they are nonetheless mine. I think that every little thing that happens Christians want to turn into persecution when there is none. Some facts to remember:

# 1- The Constitution backs up all religions, not just Christianity. In my mind, schools should abstain from ANY religious teaching, because I feel that this is primarily the job of the parents, and secondly the job of the family's church. School is for academics, and personally- I do not trust public schools to teach my kids in the way we want them taught when it comes to our family's faith.

# 2- Christian public school students have lots of rights. They may read their Bible, lead prayer/Bible groups etc-- but not during instructional times.

So this brings us to one of several problems when I see Christians hollering "persecution!"

Problem Number one: They break their employer or school laws and then complain when they get in trouble.

Real life example: There was a nurse in England who worked at a hospital, where the dress code stated that they may not wear necklaces, because of health & safety reasons. She wore a cross necklace to work, refused to take it off before her shift- and got fired. Her story: She got fired because it was a cross necklace, the real story: She got fired for breaking dress code.

Real life example # 2- Not too long ago, a group of public school students wanted to lead a prayer group and the school gave them a room to do so, during the lunch hour. What did they do? They stood in the breezeway, blocking fire exits to have their prayer group, and when they got suspended- there was an uproar of Christian persecution.

In both of those above scenarios, I see nothing there that would construe persecution. The Bible says we are to follow the laws of the land, and unless those said laws tell us to sin- we have an obligation to obey them. Praying in a room instead of a breezeway and not wearing a necklace are not sinful actions.

As far as teaching evolution/intelligent design in school- as far as I know, both are taught as a theory- or avoided completely. Either way is acceptable in my mind.

A more recent case was the coach who prayed over an injured student and was forced to resign. In looking deeper into the story, he had prior disciplinary action. Most notably, he had went against school policy which said all movies shown have to be approved through the school board. He played Courageous with no approval, and got written up for it- but pitched a fit because he said it was Christian persecution by not allowing a Christian movie. He says that he "knew they would not approve it, so he played it anyway"... Where does that line up with The Bible? Blatantly rebelling against authority? God has a word for that- witchcraft.

And finally, the reason I do not want public schools to have teachers lead prayer etc, is because my kids (if spouse and I ever have any) would possibly be exposed to muslim, buddhist, and krishna prayers etc - so I take the stance that we should just not allow any religion in public schools, because it would be unconstitutional to allow one and not the other.

I realize my post will likely ruffle a few feathers, but let it be stated that I am a Christian. I fully believe The Bible is the 100% divine and inspired, infallible word of God- and I know that same Bible gives us clear commands on dealing with authority.

My next point: America was not founded as Christian nation, it was founded as a safe haven from religious persecution. Jefferson (one of the founding fathers) was a diest, he even removed the miracles of Jesus from The Bible!! I agree with one of the above posters who said it is not fair to say that. America does not need a theocracy- that would go against The Constitution.

To keep up with the original post, do I feel Christian persecution is on the rise in America? I do not. Christian persecution is what happens to missionaries in China who are literally and physically tormented for their faith, being told not to wear a necklace? Not persecution!
 
#35
That's what I was getting at. But the topic of another country isn't really relevant, since we're talking about America which is drastically different.




That IS what you said, yes. But that's not what Jefferson says.
Oh...but it is my friend.
"I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their Legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof
 
#36
Karson stated.......

"As far as teaching evolution/intelligent design in school- as far as I know, both are taught as a theory- or avoided completely. Either way is acceptable in my mind."

Not so my brother.

Creationism is NOT taught in public schools.

Since Evolution is the only thing presented it therefore becomes more of a certainity than it does Creation since nothing is presented to disprove it.


Karson then says...........
"My next point: America was not founded as Christian nation, it was founded as a safe haven from religious persecution."

Sorry my good friend, but I can not agree with that either. I have had this conversation many times and I have saved a lot of information that contridicts your comment.

1490-1492 – Columbus’ commission was given to set out to find a new world.

According to Columbus’ personal log, his purpose in seeking undiscovered worlds was to “bring the Gospel of Jesus Christ to the heathens. …. It was the Lord who put into my mind … that it would be possible to sail from here to the Indies … I am the most unworthy sinner, but I have cried out to the Lord for grace and mercy, and they have covered me completely … No one should fear to undertake any task in the name of our Saviour, if it is just and if the intention is purely for His holy service.” (Columbus’ Book of Prophecies)

April 10, 1606 – The Charter for the Virginia Colony read in part:
“To the glory of His divine Majesty, in propagating of the Christian religion to such people as yet live in ignorance of the true knowledge and worship of God.”

November 3, 1620 – King James I grants the Charter of the Plymouth council.
“In the hope thereby to advance the enlargement of the Christian religion, to the glory of God Almighty.”

November 11, 1620 – The Pilgrims sign the Mayflower Compact aboard the Mayflower, in Plymouth harbor.
“For the glory of God and advancement of ye Christian faith … doe by these presents solemnly & mutually in ye presence of God and one of another, covenant & combine our selves togeather into a civill body politick.”

March 4, 1629 – The first Charter of Massachusetts read in part:
“For the directing, ruling, and disposeing of all other Matters and Thinges, whereby our said People may be soe religiously, peaceablie, and civilly governed, as their good life and orderlie Conversacon, maie wynn and incite the Natives of the Country to the Knowledg and Obedience of the onlie true God and Savior of Mankinde, and the Christian Fayth, which in our Royall Intencon, and The Adventurers free profession, is the principall Ende of the Plantacion..”

January 14, 1638 – The towns of Hartford, Weathersfield and Windsor adopt the Fundamental Orders of Connecticut.
“To mayntayne and presearve the liberty and purity of the Gospell of our Lord Jesus, which we now professe…”

August 4, 1639 – The governing body of New Hampshire is established.
“Considering with ourselves the holy will of God and our own necessity, that we should not live without wholesome laws and civil government among us, of which we are altogether destitute, do, in the name of Christ and in the sight of God, combine ourselves together to erect and set up among us such government as shall be, to our best discerning, agreeable to the will of God…”

September 26, 1642 – The rules and precepts that were to govern Harvard were set up.
“Let every Student be plainly instructed, and earnestly pressed to consider well, the maine end of his life and studies is, to know God and Jesus Christ which is eternall life, John 17:3 and therefore to lay Christ in the bottome, as the only foundation of all sound knowledge and Learning. And seeing the Lord only giveth wisdome, Let every one seriously set himselfe by prayer in secret to seeke it of him Prov. 2.3.”

Harvard College was founded on Christi Gloriam and later dedicated Christo et Ecclesiae. The founders of Harvard believed that “all knowledge without Christ was vain.”

The charter of Yale University clearly expressed the purpose for which the school was founded: “Whereas several well disposed and Publick spirited Persons of their sincere Regard to & zeal for upholding & propagating of the Christian Protestant Religion … youth may be instructed in the Arts & Sciences who through the blessing of Almighty God may be fitted for Publick employment both in Church & Civil State.”

In addition to Harvard and Yale, 106 out of the first 108 schools in America were founded on the Christian faith.

April 3, 1644 – The New Haven Colony adopts their charter.
“That the judicial laws of God, as they were delivered by Moses … be a rule to all the courts in this jurisdiction …”
1647 – Governor William Bradford publishes Of Plimouth Plantation.
Lastly, (and which was not least,) a great hope and inward zeall they (the Pilgrims) had of laying some good foundation, or at least to make some way thereunto, for ye propagation and advancing of ye gospell or ye kingdom of Christ in those remote parts of ye world; yea, though they should be but stepping-stones unto others for ye performing of so great a work … their desires were set on ye ways of God, and to employ his ordinances; but they rested on his providence, and know whom they had beleeved.”

April 21, 1649 – The Maryland Toleration Act is passed.
“Be it therefor … enacted … that no person or persons whatsoever within this province … professing to believe in Jesus Christ shall … henceforth be any ways troubled, molested (or disapproved of) … in respect of his or her religion nor in the free exercise thereof …”


December 20, 1820 – Daniel Webster, Plymouth Massachusetts:
Let us not forget the religious character of our origin. Our fathers brought hither their high veneration for the Christian religion. They journeyed by its light, and labored in its hope. They sought to incorporate … and to diffuse its influence through all their institutions, civil, political and literary.”
.
July 4, 1821 – John Quincy Adams:
The highest glory of the American Revolution was this: it connected, in one indissoluble bond, the principles of civil government with the principles of Christianity. From the day of the Declaration … they (the American people) were bound by the laws of God, which they all, and by the laws of the Gospel, which they nearly all, acknowledged as the rules of their conduct.”

That is only a sampling on real historical words said. It is clear that America was a government established on the Principles of Christ. NOW...........we as a nation have wondered a along way away from Christ but that is our choice to do so and it is God's directive to judge America as well.
 
#37
When I was in school, both were taught as a theory. Now in college, evolution is taught as- a theory. Being a pre-med student, I am exposed to a lot of Evolution nonsense , because I have a massive amount of required Biology classes. That being said, my instructor is a self-professing atheist and evolutionist, but he still only teaches the evidence for evolution and poses it as a theory, he mentioned intelligent design as a theory as well, but the important thing is- I will not be swayed no matter how many facts I am presented for evolution (and a lot of it makes sense... and to a degree we have microevolution/adaption. The argument is (and I am not sure where I stand on this),, is that Creationism is a supernatural science, and Biology is a natural science, Supernatural science can not explain things in science and visa versa. Anyway, just my 2 cents.
 
#38
I would define the events taking place in America not as persecution of Christianity but more an organised resistance towards it. In most Western countries people are becoming resistant to Christianity because they see it like all other religions and they see more value in modern thought and science. The problem is, in my opinion, there are too few powerful preachers of the word left in the West. Churches deliver up dessert for their congregations and leave the meat out. They have effectively removed the power of the gospel out of society. This is why Christianity is seen as just another useless religion, a cultural pursuit for most. Where are the preachers and evangelists who have gone before, who have changed entire nations through the power of the gospel? How many of us here actually doubt the power of the gospel? How many of us here have actually witnessed the power of the gospel? Do we really believe the gospel has the supernatural power to change the world or do we believe that all hope is lost and hold on to perished strings of hope in the power of the church?

The early church was so effective in changing nations that the Roman officials wrote letters to the Emperor complaining and whining about how they should stop Christianity. Celsius wrote that the Christians were so effective in social justice they could not be stopped. If we think things are bad now for Christians then one should look back and see the persecution which has gone before. Are they feeding American Christians to the lions yet? The defining difference between Christians today and yesteryear is simply one of conviction
 
#39
When I was in school, both were taught as a theory. Now in college, evolution is taught as- a theory. Being a pre-med student, I am exposed to a lot of Evolution nonsense , because I have a massive amount of required Biology classes. That being said, my instructor is a self-professing atheist and evolutionist, but he still only teaches the evidence for evolution and poses it as a theory, he mentioned intelligent design as a theory as well, but the important thing is- I will not be swayed no matter how many facts I am presented for evolution (and a lot of it makes sense... and to a degree we have microevolution/adaption. The argument is (and I am not sure where I stand on this),, is that Creationism is a supernatural science, and Biology is a natural science, Supernatural science can not explain things in science and visa versa. Anyway, just my 2 cents.
As Christians we should be fully convinced / convicted / believe that God created everything. It must be truth to us on a spiritual level with our minds playing catch-up. Evolution degrades creation. No Christian can accept it in any form!! Adaptation is NOT micro-''''evolution''''. See where the 'draw card' starts. Sneaky sneaky !! http://absolutetruth.in/forums/topic/adaptation-is-not-micro-evolution.
Creationism is a supernatural science, and Biology is a natural science, Supernatural science can not explain things in science and visa versa.
U say biology, are you mixing in evolution? that statement is deceiving (no offence). Evolution is more of a dream and supernatural science then creationsim.

Why do evolutionists summarily dismiss the evidence of design without any serious consideration? Professor , zoologist and Chair of Evolution at University College London, has given us some insight as to why this is so. He said, “Evolution [is] a theory universally accepted not because it can be proved by logically coherent evidence to be true, but because the only alternative, special creation, is clearly incredible.” This, of course, is an admission that the foundation of evolution is not science, but a rejection of the supernatural. Evolution then is simply the best alternative anyone has been able to come up with. This also means that evolution is the only field in science where one decides on the answer first, and then looks for evidence to support that predetermined answer.
 
#40
Went on a family outing this weekend to the 'cradle of mankind'. Find myself sitting in an atheist restaurant :) . Boards all over the walls with popular atheist quotes. Saw some disturbing statues. Googled their meaning and they are demonic / satanic. WHY have demonic symbolism if you are an atheist restaurant? Atheists are not so atheist ;) ....likewise all-out evolutionists are not truly devout 'scientists' are they....;).

Creationism is a supernatural science, and Biology is a natural science, Supernatural science can not explain things in science and visa versa
The evidence points to creationsim. Calling it a supernatural science is merely a COP OUT they want us to accept :rolleyes:.