Before I begin, please understand that I'm not approaching this topic from cynical vantagepoint, but rather a reflective one, and rooted in experience.

Over the decades, I've heard many, many people reflect back upon their favorite church services where and when they left the greatest of good feelings, which enticed them to describe those experiences as "wonderful fellowships."

When I would ask them if they were sitting in pews or chairs, with everyone facing the pulpit, as is traditional in most all institutional church arrangements, they always affirmed the model.

When we delve into the word of God, some things become quite striking:

Philippians 2:1 If [there be] therefore any consolation in Christ, if any comfort of love, if any fellowship of the Spirit, if any bowels and mercies,

Philippians 3:10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;

1 John 1:3, 6-7
3 That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship [is] with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ. ...
6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

We can see that there is a measure of fellowship in various senses...meaning that there is spiritual fellowship, emotional fellowship, and then there is fellowship in practice. It's the latter that is almost as important as the former, and yet is the least practiced among professing believers within the confines of the institutional model. I'm pointing out these distinctions because they are important, and drill down into the purpose for the gathering of believers that remains mostly overlooked by the masses of church-goers. Some of you may recall my hammering on this verse in other threads, but it remains a mainstay for deriving the prime purpose for the gathering of the saints:

1 Corinthians 14:26 How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.

See that? EVERY ONE OF YOU... Not just some, such as the professionals up front or the "worship team," but EVERY ONE of YOU.

Then we see the instruction that ALL those things be done unto what....EDIFICATION! Yes.

So, looking back to my experiences as an audience member in the typical 'church' service, I realized that I had never mastered the art of fellowshipping with the backs of other people's heads, and nobody to date has yet explained how that can be accomplished.

Oh, yes, we do indeed experience many a warm fuzzy after having heard a good sermon and sang praise music together, but that one element, fellowship in practice, as described in 1 Corinthians 14, that is the ONE element that's mostly non-existent in that setting, which is the only one where all the saints in that body are assembled. Instead, they are pushed outward into their small groups as a band-aid to the lack within the main gathering where only a small hand full of people are featured center-stage as opposed to YOU, a priest of God in fellowship with your fellow priests unto the Most High God.

Now, granted, fellowship, as a practice, is dangerous, for it requires being transparent...an open book before your fellow believers. Fellowship in practice blocks off the tendency to fade into the wood work of the inner walls of that so-called "sanctuary." Sanctuary from what? There you have it. You can blend in with the crowd, and your life remain a closed book to each other, and mutual edification never experienced at the depths Paul was trying to convey as a prime necessity for growth together.

Secret sin becomes an increasingly difficult burden upon the conscience of those who harbor such in the fellowship of the saints, and are therefore driven at some point to deal with that sin, either openly in the hands of fellow believers, or between that one and the Lord. Blending in with the crowd, there's no piercing of the conscience, and therefore no danger for the sin to be betrayed through words and/or actions in the close scrutiny of other believers. The burden of sins is the antithesis to edification, for sin does not and cannot edify anyone.

We all sometimes need one another at much deeper levels than what is offered by way of being a mere audience member. We sometimes come in weak and beat down, and in need of building up. The backs of other people's heads most generally does not offer that uplifting. Sometimes the Lord does so in the place of fellowship in practice, but not always.

So, yes, some have pointed out the band-aids of small groups during the week as the best answer, which are good things, but they still do not effectively compensate believers for the robbery of their birthright for fellowship in the gathering of the saints. Recall that it says WHEN YOU COME TOGETHER... It doesn't stipulate only the home or some smaller grouping, but WHEN...WHENEVER you come together.

Thoughts?

MM
 
I really liked this post. For me it is difficult to fathom that analytical mind of yours. Way beyond my comprehension. I think I know what you're conveying - I am worried to post because I don't wanna look ridiculous or misunderstood.
 
I really liked this post. For me it is difficult to fathom that analytical mind of yours. Way beyond my comprehension. I think I know what you're conveying - I am worried to post because I don't wanna look ridiculous or misunderstood.

My friend and fellow believer in Christ Jesus, my approach is what they call "systematic theology." The basic definition of that seemingly complicated terminology is to observe what ALL scripture has to say about a topic rather than just one or two verses out of their context.

Where it's true that almost all contexts within any given portion of scripture, such as marriage, divorce, adultery or whatever, can be said to have limitations to the verses within their contextual boundaries. However, within those contexts, there can be a verse or two that have universal application. For example:

1 John 2:26-27
26 These [things] have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.
27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

Some would say that the Spirit (anointing) within is limited to our instruction only in the context of deception (seduce toward falsehood).

The truth of the matter is that, the Spirit of the Lord teaching us of ALL things, is not limited to this context alone. We receive instruction from the Spirit of the Lord all throughout life as the means by which we continue each day through the sanctification process of life in Christ.

I just wanted to point that one important fact out to you.

So, Systematic Theology is seeking out what ALL of scripture has to say on a subject, such as the rapture of the saints is laid down for our understanding across many different books of the Bible, staring with the prophets, such as Jeremiah, Isaiah, Zacharias (22 to 24% of the entire Old Testament talks about the end times), and into the Thessalonians, 1st and 2nd John, all the way into Revelation. Granted, there are those who hold to opposing views about the verses brought out of the text as their proof texts, but the bottom line in it all is that, we don't need only that men teach us, but that we recognize and practice the reality of Holy Spirit being the final Authority in it all.

We can learn from those who teach, because they can bring things to mind of great importance. We should always gauge what men say with scripture, and more importantly, with the Spirit of the Lord who can speak into your mind, heart, soul, or can direct you to the written word for clarification and correction, or by whatever means the Lord so chooses.

I hope that's all understandable.

MM
 
Before I begin, please understand that I'm not approaching this topic from cynical vantagepoint, but rather a reflective one, and rooted in experience. Over the decades, I've heard many, many people reflect back upon their favorite church services where and when they left the greatest of good feelings, which enticed them to describe those experiences as "wonderful fellowships."

When I would ask them if they were sitting in pews or chairs, with everyone facing the pulpit, as is traditional in most all institutional church arrangements, they always affirmed the model.

When we delve into the word of God, some things become quite striking:

Philippians 2:1 If [there be] therefore any consolation in Christ, if any comfort of love, if any fellowship of the Spirit, if any bowels and mercies,

Philippians 3:10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;

1 John 1:3, 6-7
3 That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship [is] with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ. ...
6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

We can see that there is a measure of fellowship in various senses...meaning that there is spiritual fellowship, emotional fellowship, and then there is fellowship in practice. It's the latter that is almost as important as the former, and yet is the least practiced among professing believers within the confines of the institutional model. I'm pointing out these distinctions because they are important, and drill down into the purpose for the gathering of believers that remains mostly overlooked by the masses of church-goers. Some of you may recall my hammering on this verse in other threads, but it remains a mainstay for deriving the prime purpose for the gathering of the saints:

1 Corinthians 14:26 How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.

See that? EVERY ONE OF YOU... Not just some, such as the professionals up front or the "worship team," but EVERY ONE of YOU.

Then we see the instruction that ALL those things be done unto what....EDIFICATION! Yes.

So, looking back to my experiences as an audience member in the typical 'church' service, I realized that I had never mastered the art of fellowshipping with the backs of other people's heads, and nobody to date has yet explained how that can be accomplished.

Oh, yes, we do indeed experience many a warm fuzzy after having heard a good sermon and sang praise music together, but that one element, fellowship in practice, as described in 1 Corinthians 14, that is the ONE element that's mostly non-existent in that setting, which is the only one where all the saints in that body are assembled. Instead, they are pushed outward into their small groups as a band-aid to the lack within the main gathering where only a small hand full of people are featured center-stage as opposed to YOU, a priest of God in fellowship with your fellow priests unto the Most High God.

Now, granted, fellowship, as a practice, is dangerous, for it requires being transparent...an open book before your fellow believers. Fellowship in practice blocks off the tendency to fade into the wood work of the inner walls of that so-called "sanctuary." Sanctuary from what? There you have it. You can blend in with the crowd, and your life remain a closed book to each other, and mutual edification never experienced at the depths Paul was trying to convey as a prime necessity for growth together.

Secret sin becomes an increasingly difficult burden upon the conscience of those who harbor such in the fellowship of the saints, and are therefore driven at some point to deal with that sin, either openly in the hands of fellow believers, or between that one and the Lord. Blending in with the crowd, there's no piercing of the conscience, and therefore no danger for the sin to be betrayed through words and/or actions in the close scrutiny of other believers. The burden of sins is the antithesis to edification, for sin does not and cannot edify anyone.

We all sometimes need one another at much deeper levels than what is offered by way of being a mere audience member. We sometimes come in weak and beat down, and in need of building up. The backs of other people's heads most generally does not offer that uplifting. Sometimes the Lord does so in the place of fellowship in practice, but not always.

So, yes, some have pointed out the band-aids of small groups during the week as the best answer, which are good things, but they still do not effectively compensate believers for the robbery of their birthright for fellowship in the gathering of the saints. Recall that it says WHEN YOU COME TOGETHER... It doesn't stipulate only the home or some smaller grouping, but WHEN...WHENEVER you come together.

Thoughts?

MM
My friend and fellow believer in Christ Jesus, my approach is what they call "systematic theology." The basic definition of that seemingly complicated terminology is to observe what ALL scripture has to say about a topic rather than just one or two verses out of their context.
Where it's true that almost all contexts within any given portion of scripture, such as marriage, divorce, adultery or whatever, can be said to have limitations to the verses within their contextual boundaries. However, within those contexts, there can be a verse or two that have universal application. For example:


1 John 2:26-27
26 These [things] have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.
27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

Some would say that the Spirit (anointing) within is limited to our instruction only in the context of deception (seduce toward falsehood).

The truth of the matter is that, the Spirit of the Lord teaching us of ALL things, is not limited to this context alone. We receive instruction from the Spirit of the Lord all throughout life as the means by which we continue each day through the sanctification process of life in Christ.

I just wanted to point that one important fact out to you.

So, Systematic Theology is seeking out what ALL of scripture has to say on a subject, such as the rapture of the saints is laid down for our understanding across many different books of the Bible, staring with the prophets, such as Jeremiah, Isaiah, Zacharias (22 to 24% of the entire Old Testament talks about the end times), and into the Thessalonians, 1st and 2nd John, all the way into Revelation. Granted, there are those who hold to opposing views about the verses brought out of the text as their proof texts, but the bottom line in it all is that, we don't need only that men teach us, but that we recognize and practice the reality of Holy Spirit being the final Authority in it all.

We can learn from those who teach, because they can bring things to mind of great importance. We should always gauge what men say with scripture, and more importantly, with the Spirit of the Lord who can speak into your mind, heart, soul, or can direct you to the written word for clarification and correction, or by whatever means the Lord so chooses.

I hope that's all understandable.

MM

Hello Musicmaster;

You write a good thread, brother. I do reflect on many past Church services and remember many blessed worships that left me encouraged, but I also remember the worst of Church services.

After reading what you wrote including the Scriptures it reminds me of the first Church meeting in Acts 1:13 - 26. When we read these passages deeper we see more clear that in Acts 1 this Church meeting was about giving full homage, praise, and reverence to God Almighty. There wasn't an emphasis on the singing, preaching, who's attending, personal prayer requests or the furniture setup in the upper room.

Church has changed so much since the Church meeting in
Acts 1:13. Unfortunately there are too many critiques today about the order of service, the praise and worship music, the preaching, upcoming events, who or how many are in attendance, personalities and in some Churches the mention of politics. There is a time and place for each one of these in a Pastoral meeting, Board meeting or town hall gathering of the membership, respectfully, but it shouldn't take the place of Real Fellowship.

When these critiques (preferences) take the place of the True Worship of God then I wonder if this is a gathering of
Imagined Fellowship.

I'm leading a
long Bible study tomorrow evening with a group of middle and senior age brothers and sisters. Amongst them will be a young couple, both 26 years old. Personality conflicts, hurt feelings, disrespect for the elderly and young, broken relationships in the Church and other issues that have taken away the Real Fellowship and will be emphasized in the Bible study and how we can get back into the True Heart of Worship.

God will be my instructor and guide as I lead this study.

Earlier when I mentioned the worst of Church services. These were the ones that convicted me hard and later realized it wasn't about going to a good feel social event, but God working in the areas of my life where I needed correcting and repentance.

God bless you, MM. You and I have discussed Systematic Theology which I hold true about your teaching, and I hope this falls in align with what you share in Fellowship - Real or Imagined.
 
Hello Musicmaster;

You write a good thread, brother. I do reflect on many past Church services and remember many blessed worships that left me encouraged, but I also remember the worst of Church services.

After reading what you wrote including the Scriptures it reminds me of the first Church meeting in Acts 1:13 - 26. When we read these passages deeper we see more clear that in Acts 1 this Church meeting was about giving full homage, praise, and reverence to God Almighty. There wasn't an emphasis on the singing, preaching, who's attending, personal prayer requests or the furniture setup in the upper room.

Church has changed so much since the Church meeting in
Acts 1:13. Unfortunately there are too many critiques today about the order of service, the praise and worship music, the preaching, upcoming events, who or how many are in attendance, personalities and in some Churches the mention of politics. There is a time and place for each one of these in a Pastoral meeting, Board meeting or town hall gathering of the membership, respectfully, but it shouldn't take the place of Real Fellowship.

When these critiques (preferences) take the place of the True Worship of God then I wonder if this is a gathering of
Imagined Fellowship.

I'm leading a
long Bible study tomorrow evening with a group of middle and senior age brothers and sisters. Amongst them will be a young couple, both 26 years old. Personality conflicts, hurt feelings, disrespect for the elderly and young, broken relationships in the Church and other issues that have taken away the Real Fellowship and will be emphasized in the Bible study and how we can get back into the True Heart of Worship.

God will be my instructor and guide as I lead this study.

Earlier when I mentioned the worst of Church services. These were the ones that convicted me hard and later realized it wasn't about going to a good feel social event, but God working in the areas of my life where I needed correcting and repentance.

God bless you, MM. You and I have discussed Systematic Theology which I hold true about your teaching, and I hope this falls in align with what you share in Fellowship - Real or Imagined.

Thanks, brother. I very much appreciate your insightful thoughts and experiences.

Worship is an amazingly dynamic discussion that can leave one bewildered at the vastness of that topic.

Something that has gotten to where it gets in under my skin is the traditional misunderstanding so many have about the nature and reality of TRUE worship, and how that relates to "corporate" worship.

I've mentioned before the widespread practice of people referring to their "praise and worship" services they attend.

Dare I ask them if they also experienced "fellowship" in those services, I most generally get the blind, although enthusiastic, indifference to the truth of the matter in their bright-eyed affirmations. What that shows to me is that most simply don't understand the true and genuine nature of worship, and about praise, and about fellowship. Those items are mutually exclusive. They are not synonymous. They are not one and the same thing.

(I said it three different ways to hopefully get it across that those items are not interchangeable with one another.)

The lack of true understanding in the minds of most audience members within churchianity lends ample evidence to the vacuum in their understanding.

I won't harangue further about that here, but it's my hope that the gathering of believers will once again return to the roots of the gathering of believers as it once was. The institutional model will continue, one way or the other, so long as people are willing to feed their hard-earned income into all the luxuries it provides for them.

MM
 
I really liked this post. For me it is difficult to fathom that analytical mind of yours. Way beyond my comprehension. I think I know what you're conveying - I am worried to post because I don't wanna look ridiculous or misunderstood.
I don't speak much analytical either but I can sense what he's saying....he is so eloquent he makes me look like a barn door lol
 
I really liked this post. For me it is difficult to fathom that analytical mind of yours. Way beyond my comprehension. I think I know what you're conveying - I am worried to post because I don't wanna look ridiculous or misunderstood.

My apologies for how I write. When I'm in a hurry, due to limited typing time, I tend to get right to the point, using words and phraseology (there, I did it again) that will hopefully make my thoughts more concrete, precise and graphic....sort of like word art, and therefore using words to paint the portrait of my inner world. Create of music speaks to those who have ears to hear the emotion and imagery I'm trying to convey to others.


MM
 
I think meeting together anywhere in two or three (or more) is enough and fellowship is actually much deeper than meeting with say 50 others sitting in pew rows for an hour.

I don't really get a lot of church things, traditions or assemblies. I feel that while its protocol and something thats necessary for large groups I don't think bigger is necessarily better. I go to them but I feel like when I do go I am a bit superfluous since there are so many others there too. But while I do better in smaller gatherings sometimes I think they are the other extreme and put too much on people as well.

So am not sure what the answer is, but I do know when you sit at a table you can really only talk to the person sitting next to you or opposite you. In a large table you are not going to interact with everyone.
 
I think meeting together anywhere in two or three (or more) is enough and fellowship is actually much deeper than meeting with say 50 others sitting in pew rows for an hour.

I don't really get a lot of church things, traditions or assemblies. I feel that while its protocol and something thats necessary for large groups I don't think bigger is necessarily better. I go to them but I feel like when I do go I am a bit superfluous since there are so many others there too. But while I do better in smaller gatherings sometimes I think they are the other extreme and put too much on people as well.

So am not sure what the answer is, but I do know when you sit at a table you can really only talk to the person sitting next to you or opposite you. In a large table you are not going to interact with everyone.
Agreed on that. Intimacy in fellowship is so crucial and vital.
 
Agreed on that. Intimacy in fellowship is so crucial and vital.

Yes, and TRUE fellowship is also dangerous, especially those with secret sin. They generally avoid any genuine attempt at fellowship in its purest form.

I draw a line of glaring distinction between TRUE fellowship and contrived fellowship (which is what most of churchianity and home groups practice) because most people prefer avoiding anything that might betray their deeper, hidden world of sin and character flaws.

TRUE fellowship requires that all participants become open books to all the others. Although there is the danger of gossips tearing others apart in discussions outside the group amongst others who are not members, or even among the membership, that too is a destructive force to anyone trusting in genuine fellowships.

The surface, contrived forms of fellowship are therefore safer, and more accomadating to individuals fading into the woodwork of insignifigance and non-interaction...such as looking at the backs of each other's heads.

I never could master the art of TRUE fellowship in that environment, but defer to those who demand labeling the institutional model as their "fellowship" if they wish. It makes it so much easier for me to then identify those who have never experienced REAL fellowship of biblical stature. Most mistake the warm fuzees of the institutional services as "true fellowship," usually coupled with the coffee and donuts before the service, or in their cell groups where they do their "Bible study." :confused:

I'm not saying that group Bible study is bad, but the distractions by way of the stringent control over those studies that most institutional leadership tends to exercise over them, and/or the guided lesson book, and/or the personal agenda of the group leader...all coupled with the high degree of ignorance so many in institutional leadership has about the Bible, and the lack of spiritual depth within the average church-goer who has to clean the weekly dust off their Bibles when they pick it up each Sunday morning...well, this only betrays the power that paradigm has in strengthening tradition and habit. They ensure spiritual stasis, and thus betray the lack of face to face discipleship in those places.

Sorry. My soap box sometimes creeps up to me and forces itself under my feet....

MM
 
Yes, and TRUE fellowship is also dangerous, especially those with secret sin. They generally avoid any genuine attempt at fellowship in its purest form.

I draw a line of glaring distinction between TRUE fellowship and contrived fellowship (which is what most of churchianity and home groups practice) because most people prefer avoiding anything that might betray their deeper, hidden world of sin and character flaws.

TRUE fellowship requires that all participants become open books to all the others. Although there is the danger of gossips tearing others apart in discussions outside the group amongst others who are not members, or even among the membership, that too is a destructive force to anyone trusting in genuine fellowships.

The surface, contrived forms of fellowship are therefore safer, and more accomadating to individuals fading into the woodwork of insignifigance and non-interaction...such as looking at the backs of each other's heads.

I never could master the art of TRUE fellowship in that environment, but defer to those who demand labeling the institutional model as their "fellowship" if they wish. It makes it so much easier for me to then identify those who have never experienced REAL fellowship of biblical stature. Most mistake the warm fuzees of the institutional services as "true fellowship," usually coupled with the coffee and donuts before the service, or in their cell groups where they do their "Bible study." :confused:

I'm not saying that group Bible study is bad, but the distractions by way of the stringent control over those studies that most institutional leadership tends to exercise over them, and/or the guided lesson book, and/or the personal agenda of the group leader...all coupled with the high degree of ignorance so many in institutional leadership has about the Bible, and the lack of spiritual depth within the average church-goer who has to clean the weekly dust off their Bibles when they pick it up each Sunday morning...well, this only betrays the power that paradigm has in strengthening tradition and habit. They ensure spiritual stasis, and thus betray the lack of face to face discipleship in those places.

Sorry. My soap box sometimes creeps up to me and forces itself under my feet....

MM
I understand but at the same time that would basically said don't bother because we have no idea who is in secret sin and who isn't. Jesus didn't come for the healthy but for the sick. I can appreciate and yes agree but breaking it apart - it would basically breed mistrust and just close ourselves off to everything and everyone. Don't we believe God is in control? Don't we believe despite of not understand or being knowledgeable God brings us in the center of His will [as we learn in the process]. We will not and cannot know everything all at once. Don't we rely on Holy Spirit and not our own intellectual abilities and logical comprehension? Not everyone is going to get it, we do need trials tribulations falls and so forth you deepen our relationship with God. If everyone had it altogether the cross would be irrelevant. Jesus died for all of this, past present future - we also have to accept there are things out of our control. Fallen nature is a war day to day between walking in spirit and in flesh. Fleeing from temptation and knowing we are still going to sin. I think where sin is, much grace abounds still. It all comes back the our flawed wicked and evil we are. Why we need Jesus our Savior. I am so grateful I DO have him because where we lack, he is faithful even when we are faithless.
 
I understand but at the same time that would basically said don't bother because we have no idea who is in secret sin and who isn't.

Precisely. TRUE fellowship has the power to betray those who are living in secret sins. Sometimes it happens quickly, sometimes it takes time.

We once had a secret pedophile in one of our fellowships who eventually went to prison for his sins. Looking back to before his sins was revealed for all to see, we elders sensed that something was wrong, because he would go to the kitchen and hang out during the in-depth sharing and prayer time. In other words, he could not stand the presence of the Spirit of the Lord until after he came to grips with the consequences of his sins. It wasn't until he was arrested, tried and charged that we understood the nature of what we could see was going on in his inner world.

In other words, TRUE fellowship has the unavoidable power to either drive away those living in secret sin(s), or it will drive them to repent. That man has repented, and is now living a life of trying to make it up to his now frown children he sexually abused. Blessedly, when he would leave the meeting, which we came to understand was an expression of his discomfort with open and true fellowship, we knew well enough to make sure one of us adults were with the children in another part of the house, otherwise things may have been far worse. The Spirit protected us from the predatory demon that was influencing that man.

So, this simply is one of many outflows of evidence for the power of true fellowship...when it's empowered by the presence of the Lord:

Matthew 18:20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

We always make sure to confirm, in our opening prayers, the invitation for the presence of the Lord in our fellowships. His presence within the fellowship is the only way it is empowered.

Jesus didn't come for the healthy but for the sick. I can appreciate and yes agree but breaking it apart - it would basically breed mistrust and just close ourselves off to everything and everyone. Don't we believe God is in control? Don't we believe despite of not understand or being knowledgeable God brings us in the center of His will [as we learn in the process].

When people close themselves off from others, they do so for a reason(s).

Proverbs 28:13 He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh [them] shall have mercy.

Psalm 90:8 Thou hast set our iniquities before thee, our secret [sins] in the light of thy countenance.

John 3:20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

Romans 13:12 The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light.

I could go on and on, but this gives ample evidence to the power that is in His presence to empower true fellowship. Those who shun true fellowship are on their own. We invite them in, hoping that the power of His presence will help them to become open so that they can then deal with their sin(s) that would otherwise remain hidden from the eyes of others. Empowered fellowship is a tool through which the process of sanctification can and does flourish.

If we defend the status quo, where is the value in that? Entering into the main, traditional gathering and fading into the woodwork of insignificance and indifference to the deeper things of each life in that place, that is what I am calling the status quo.

Now, please don't get me wrong. I'm not saying there's no value in the status quo model. Much learning can take place there if the teaching is good and effective. The problem are the many band-aids I have seen with the inclusion of what may be called the "cell" groups. Almost every one of them I have encountered under the umbrella of the institutional model, they are not true fellowships by any stretch of the imagination when they are governed by the iron fist of a programmatic agenda handed down by the institutional leadership. One such group I was a part of were required to write out a report from each meeting, naming names, of who said what that might have contradicted the lesson and its content.

In other words, those cell groups were no different from the gathering at the main facility. A person could go to any one of those cell groups and fade into the woodwork as they do in the main "sanctuary" of the collective gathering on Sunday mornings, never being accountable to anyone.

We will not and cannot know everything all at once. Don't we rely on Holy Spirit and not our own intellectual abilities and logical comprehension?

But that's precisely what I'm saying. The stringently programmatic approach is inherently flawed if we are looking for the Lord to be in charge. Thinking that we can put the handcuffs of the almighty program on His hands, and yet expect Him to have the freedom to redirect the message, teaching, or whatever, in the thinking and practice of those who have given themselves over to the power and control of "program," one is left with the status quo of deadness and spiritual vacuum.

That's not to say that the Lord cannot move within individual lives in those dogmatically institutionalized places, but open and genuine fellowship, where we face each other life a family rather than an audience, with each person living out the expectation that the Lord is in charge rather than some programmatic dogma, the differences in outcome are staggering.

Not everyone is going to get it, we do need trials tribulations falls and so forth you deepen our relationship with God.

Oh, I wholeheartedly agree. Those hardships are headed our way right now. For years I have been speaking to pastors about preparing their followers to go out and fly like eagles rather than flopping around in pews like chickens that can't fly. The institutional model is facing its ultimate demise in these last days. The day is soon upon us where the institutions will either bow their knee to the demands of the State, or be dissolved, with the facility and its bank accounts taken from their control by those who are governed by Satan.

How prepared are those people to function as mature, spiritual giants? The answer to that is what I find most disturbing. Most are not prepared, and don't even obey Christ's command to us all:

Luke 21:35-36
35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.
36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

That gives a whole new meaning to the sheer number of people who will not be taken up into the clouds to meet Christ at the rapture. Most do not even pray this prayer, perhaps because this command remains mostly ignored by most pastors because of the strong tendency to write it off as applying only to the Israelites looking forward to 70 AD.

Wow. This has the devil laughing for him to think about how many are not as the five wise virgins who had oil for their lamps when the Groom came to admit them into the wedding celebration.

If everyone had it altogether the cross would be irrelevant. Jesus died for all of this, past present future - we also have to accept there are things out of our control. Fallen nature is a war day to day between walking in spirit and in flesh. Fleeing from temptation and knowing we are still going to sin. I think where sin is, much grace abounds still. It all comes back the our flawed wicked and evil we are. Why we need Jesus our Savior. I am so grateful I DO have him because where we lack, he is faithful even when we are faithless.

The cross never looses its relevance to the true follower of Christ Jesus. Even spiritual giants bow down before the cross on a daily basis, recognizing and remembering the Divine and Eternal glory of what was done for us all on that device of torture and death. Even now I am moved to tears out of remembrance of what He has done for us in His perfect obedience unto the Father.

Amen, my friend. Amen.

MM
 
hmm I remember in a prayer or bible study meeting some people from outside of our church attended and you could tell they were not in the spirit and wouldn't pray for others/didn't seem to know how to pray or left early or wouldn't share anything. Or they would talk about their own concerns and not spiritual concerns or they would hastily agree with things without having any kind of word of knowledge or spiritual insight. They wouldn't really be focused on the Word either and go off on tangents.

I did pick up on these things but in a large group you can't always tell who's in fellowship and who isn't because you don't spend enough time with them.

With children I can tell if they 'get' something out of the teaching or not, but even if they don't really get it and you don't feel any breakthrough or aha moment, it might come later outside of that lesson time because His word does not return empty. Because they could 'opt out' or 'opt in' I tended to have the ones that really wanted to be there and learn rather than have to teach a class where half were not interested.

I have taught Bible where there have been child athiests lol. Its a lot harder! There are also children who really want to know about God but their parents are athiests and won't let them come to Bible time. That's sometimes hard to handle because they miss out on the fun.
 
I think in some churches the emphasis can be too much on numbers rather than depth of fellowship. But its the same with secular groups and clubs people think things go well when heaps of people attend and its popular and everything, but that could be a false positive when now there are much MORE varieties of churches but smaller numbers of people in more churches. As opposed to just the ONE big church that everyone goes to (or cathedral) maybe once in a blue moon.

So there's that. Also, in recent decades where churches became more 'seeker friendly' than closed off (or even 'exclusive brethren' as some sects made themselves out to be) the emphaisis has been more on broad evangelism - get your entire family/extended whanau all together/workforce/sports team/gang/group/team rather than individuals that reaches crowds of people enough to fill out concert stadiums, and church venues have added 'excitement' in the form of rock concerts and music festival type atmosphere. This might have worked for those of the 'hippie' generation that were into things like Woodstock and outdoor gatherings or happenings and remember all that..but youth today aren't necessarily into all those things that the previous generation were into.

They don't particularly like crowded malls etc and are more technosavvy and probably would prefer deeper things like online forums (like this one) where they can write and hash out the Word rather than fight for a spot in a mosh pit that plays loud worship music.
 
Another thing I might mention was this place called L'abris in Swizerland where people stayed in chateaus and were curious about God and a Christian family (the Schaeffers) would host them while answering all the questions they had about life, Christianity and Jesus.

Sort of like the alpha course but for traveling backpackers. Some people don't get that 'instant' I got saved thing at a huge rally with heaps of people all around them witnessing their walk down the aisle and then nothing else happens for a few weeks because nobody does any follow up.

This is where small groups come in their own. Most churches do have small groups and new believers grow in them and really need them. They can't sustain themselves on just an hour a week of hearing the Word (which tends to be revision for elders!) When you are a babe in Christ you are hungry and need His presence daily.
 
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