Food For Thought

Seems to me any killing done by the Israelites as a commandment of the Lord is to cleanse sin. It was not warmongering or pleasure-it was "following orders" like any soldier can understand. The Hollywood stereotype of blood hungry soldiers has been so overplayed that even the soldiers start to believe it-until they are actually faced with that choice. Deuteronomy 9:4-5

No, we Christians that believe in self defense don't seek pleasure in killing. I am an advocate of non-lethal methods, but you also better know your physical limitations. The older I get the more appealing concealed carry becomes-especially in these times.
But BUT....In no way can an American Christian justify themselves by comparing the ancient Hebrews to themselves....Sorry....Any other rationalization may work, but NOT that one, in my opinion.
 
But BUT....In no way can an American Christian justify themselves by comparing the ancient Hebrews to themselves....Sorry....Any other rationalization may work, but NOT that one, in my opinion.

I am not sure I understand the point? Did I miss something or fail to clarify my position?

I am not justifying murder as an option to self-defense if that is where I think this is going? And "American Christian"? I think I may be bit confused here-are we all not under the same blood of Christ?

Let me try to restate-sometimes I have a difficult time illustrating what is actually bouncing around my head. As far as comparing ourselves to ancient Hebrews I would say this: they were a bunch of dirty rotten sinners just like us but God chose THEM, not the other way around. Why did God do that-no idea, that's God call and I have no problem with that.

I stated earlier I am an advocate of non-lethal self defense; but what I am grappling with is the idea that we 'Christians' are just supposed to "turn the other cheek" and let evil railroad us into oblivion. Are we not to 'resist the devil' even from the 'wickedness in high places'? At least one of the disciples carried a sword walking with Christ...

Having the means of protection (example: sword or a gun) and not using it is a whole lot different than having no means of protection and allowing yourself to be a random victim.
 
I'm not leading to a definition of murder, Dirty: I'm carefully noting that American Christians (the born again) cannot use the rationalization that "the Hebrews did it so so can I." That justification would make modern American Christians liable to everything the Hebrews did or were commanded to do. I doubt any honest researcher would want that.

Whatever reasoning a born again Christian has is up to them and between them and God. BUT as the verses I quoted show...lethal force was NOT God's first choice...and saying "Who knows why?" can't work for me, as He said why He wanted it His way.
 
I am not sure I understand the point? Did I miss something or fail to clarify my position?

... And "American Christian"? I think I may be bit confused here-are we all not under the same blood of Christ?
So....are you saying that all Americans are Christians??

For Sure: the Lord shed His blood for the entire world, but can you say the entire world has appropriated the salvation that that includes?

I can't.
 
First off rusty, that entire passage you quoted even talks about driving them out. And, It depends on what you interpret "driving out" I stil contend, that plan A was to eliminate everyone in the land, because God knew that they would come back and cause trouble for the Israelites later on. (and they did) And regardless of whether it was plan "A" or plan "B" (I still hold it was plan A but its a moot point) God did, order the Israelites to kill everyone in the promised land. Bad things only came to the Israelites, AFTER they disobeyed and DIDNT kill them. Secondly, I wasnt necessarily using it as an argument for self defense, just that your argument about the Israelites disobeying God by killing the residents of jericho, was wrong.

Third point. People like to discredit the OT all the time, and its annoying. God included the old testament, in our Bible for a reason, and that reason is not to be ignored. Its for us to learn from it. The apostle Paul even said, that even though were not bound by the law, it is in place so that we know what sin is (romans 7:7) So, the law, still holds merit-not something that we need to do to get to heaven-but so that we know what is sin, and what is not sin. The law says that if someone breaks into your home at night, that you have the right to kill them (exodus 22:2-3) In fact there were a lot of laws, that dealt with self defense. The OT also specified That if the watchman saw a intruder sneak into camp, and did nothing, that he was gulty. (Ezekiel 33:6) Even the psalms, says to rescue the week and needy, to deliver them out of the hand of the wicked (psalm 82:4) Now, there are more ways to rescue the weak and needy then lethal force-that much is true-however, sometimes, that is what is required-sometimes the only way to stop a bad guy with deadly force, is with deadly force. Sad fact of the world we live in.

Conclusion? God did indeed order the Israelites to drive out and kill everyone in cana. God also, gave us the law, and the history, so that we can learn from their mistakes, and what they did right or wrong. Am I proposing that revenge killings like suggested in the law are right? not at all, but it is clear throughout the Bible, that we are to stand for whats right, defend those who cannot defend ourselves, and protect our families. Self defense is not unbiblical by any stretch of the imagination.
 
Look again...God said HE would drive them out, He would send hornets, He would frighten them away....etc. etc. But the Hebrews still, after all the miracles performed for them, still sent spies into the land....unnecessarily. The breach of trust in Him lead them to blood-letting, which I think the Lord VERY reluctantly condoned. I think the genocide He allowed was because the Hebrews were so vulnerable to intermarriage and idol-worship.....Things modern Christians may overlook.

My point is that American Christians, IMO, may have numerous reasons in their minds for "packing heat", but to put themselves on the same level as the ancient Hebrews , just doesn't wash, IMO.
 
So....are you saying that all Americans are Christians??

For Sure: the Lord shed His blood for the entire world, but can you say the entire world has appropriated the salvation that that includes?

I can't.

No not at all...I think there is a bit of confusion here on my end...
 
First off, what is the difference between God wiping them out, and having the Israelites themselves do it? And how do you know He wasnt speaking metaphorically there? and even so, who is putting them at the same level, first off, second off, why not. They were human. Were human. They make mistakes. we make mistakes. Thats why God included the history in the bible so that we learn from it. We do see regardless of whether it was plan A or plan B That God did order the Israelites to wipe out the people of Jericho and everyone in the land. So your initial argument that the Israelites disobeyed God in killing the cities inhabitants, was wrong.

So what if its plan B? the Israelites never disobayed God in the sense He told them not to kill the people there. In fact, if you take a look at scripture, it wasnt even the sending the spies that caused them trouble. It was the fact that they doubted Gods will in giving them the land. It was doubting God, not the spies, that did it. If all 12 of those spies had said lets go for it, and the Israelites went for it, I have no doubt in my mind they wouldnt have wandered in the wilderness. and everyone in jericho would still be dead. Regardless of what happened earlier, God still ordered the Israelites to kill everyone-and they did. To say they disobeyed God in doing so is incorrect.

And, I like how you try to cast those christians who choose to believe in self defense in a negative light, that we have to "justify it in our minds" well, Ive already justified it in scripture, and you have yet to comment on it. . .
 
I guess to hold the ancient Hebrews any higher than the rest of us seems odd to me. Other than God chose them to be his representatives-and failed. My Bible says we all come from the blood of Noah in some way.

My point was, I don't believe God meant us do be defenseless-physically. God is our spiritual defense AND can if He chooses to intervene in the physical. Whether it be a baseball bat, sword, handgun, tank, whatever...are we not to have the ability to protect our families?
 
I guess to hold the ancient Hebrews any higher than the rest of us seems odd to me. Other than God chose them to be his representatives-and failed. My Bible says we all come from the blood of Noah in some way.
I'm not doing that at all. The ancient Jews were just as normal as you and I, BUT they had man many generations under pagan influences while in Egypt. You and I don't. Moses was taken form Egypt and made a shepherd by the Lord for the murder of one Egyptian. Looks like God wasn't real thrilled in his rash idea of self-defense and needed some re-education time quite alone, IMO.

My point was, I don't believe God meant us do be defenseless-physically. God is our spiritual defense AND can if He chooses to intervene in the physical. Whether it be a baseball bat, sword, handgun, tank, whatever...are we not to have the ability to protect our families?
I see this as a contradiction. God has thousands of promises throughout the Bible for our physical protection too. I don't see Him being fickle with if He will or won't protect the obedient (or willing to be obedient) Christian.

Do mission societies pack a .45 with every missionary they send out? Nope.
 
I'm not doing that at all. The ancient Jews were just as normal as you and I, BUT they had man many geberations under pagan influences while in Egypt. You and I don't. Moses was taken form Egypt and made a shepherd by the Lord for the murder of one Egyptian. Looks like God wasn't real thrilled in his rash idea of self-defense and needed some re-education time quite alone, IMO.

I would disagree about the pagan influences as they are very much alive today especially in our 'American' culture and those of several other "civilized" nations. In my opinion, the USA is due for a tribulation.

As for Moses, I believe that was premeditated murder-not self defense. Exodus 2:12
 
Dirty: I only have a problem with justification of current gun oriented Christians in pointing to the ancient Hebrews and claiming that since they killed and conquered nations, they can pack heat. They can do what they want, but I find it untenable to drag the OT into it.

This sort of logic was used to justify slavery in pre-American Civil War times, because the Jews had slaves.
This sort of logic is used by polygamists today, because some Jews were polygamists.

I think the use of carnal force is a matter of a Christian's conscience and counsel with the Lord Himself, not by a gun club, or politcal lobby.
 
I see this as a contradiction. God has thousands of promises throughout the Bible for our physical protection too. I don't see Him being fickle with if He will or won't protect the obedient (or willing to be obedient) Christian.

Do mission societies pack a .45 with every missionary they send out? Nope.

Not sure if and how missionary's protect themselves, I would imagine some do, some don't. I think that may be based on a level of faith-speculation of course. Maybe none do?

Your thoughts on Luke 22:36-38, And Peter carrying a sword? (Mathew 26:51, Mark14:47, John 18:10)
 
Let's look at the text:

Exo 2:11 And it came to pass in those days, when Moses was grown, that he went out unto his brethren, and looked on their burdens: and he spied an Egyptian smiting an Hebrew, one of his brethren.
Exo 2:12 And he looked this way and that way, and when he saw that there was no man, he slew the Egyptian, and hid him in the sand.

Yes, I did say it was murder, not self-defense, BUT (in his mind) justifiable defense of his brother.
 
Not sure if and how missionary's protect themselves, I would imagine some do, some don't. I think that may be based on a level of faith-speculation of course. Maybe none do?

Your thoughts on Luke 22:36-38, And Peter carrying a sword? (Mathew 26:51, Mark14:47, John 18:10)
Well...research it. It's quite fascinating.

I'm VERY active in the mission field, so have watched this for years. I know personally not one missionary that has even considered guns in their work for the Lord. None.
 
Dirty: I only have a problem with justification of current gun oriented Christians in pointing to the ancient Hebrews and claiming that since they killed and conquered nations, they can pack heat. They can do what they want, but I find it untenable to drag the OT into it.

This sort of logic was used to justify slavery in pre-American Civil War times, because the Jews had slaves.
This sort of logic is used by polygamists today, because some Jews were polygamists.

I think the use of carnal force is a matter of a Christian's conscience and counsel with the Lord Himself, not by a gun club, or politcal lobby.

I am not in agreement with our government killing at will using our troops as a tool for the devil.

I think there is a big understanding by most of the world about what our Second Amendment is all about. "A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed."

The intent of the second amendment is to protect the PEOPLE from their own GOVERNMENT which wants ultimate power and control over the masses to make us slaves LIKE the Hebrews were in Egypt. It is about the internal freedom of the USA, not stomping about the planet taking from third world countries on a whim.
 
I'm not addressing your government at all, Dirty; again I am only addressing the justifications of born again Christians, not political entities.
 
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