Forgiveness is great; but dont extend to everything.

[JesusLovesAll]

There are two types of sin in the bible.

Should it be the sin not unto death, there is still salvation. But there are sins unto death, which there is no more forgiveness.

If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.
1 Jn 5:16

Theres about 9 types of sin in the bible
But yeah, its good to view it this way and go back and correct things.
Forgiveness might extend it might not, not saying much on that.
I do know one thing tho, Jesus has my salvation covered if I do the right thing and if my intentions are pure.
Judgement well, we all gonna be judged, and sin still seems to be a how to guide; how to produce bad works.. so I dont know.

 

[John_Jervis]

Hmm yes .. what you say can be true . but in moments like that . i think it is best to appeal to His lovingkindness and mercy . even evil king Manasseh repented after all that evil he did and lived .

this passage comes to mind

Ezekiel 33:14-16 (King James Version)

14Again, when I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; if he turn from his sin, and do that which is lawful and right;
15If the wicked restore the pledge, give again that he had robbed, walk in the statutes of life, without committing iniquity; he shall surely live, he shall not die.
16None of his sins that he hath committed shall be mentioned unto him: he hath done that which is lawful and right; he shall surely live.

Ah, but the Bible didn't say that king Manasseh sinned a sin unto death.

To us Christians, if we commit this sin unto death, there is no forgiveness in this world nor the next:

Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.
Mat 12:31-32

 

[Michael Collum]

/

 

[John_Jervis]

But You're mixing concepts up .

Not necessarily. Jesus mentions sin that cannot be forgiven. Are Christians exempted from this? Isn't it the intention of Christ to warn us to avoid this sin? Isn't a sin unto death a sin that is unforgivable like blasphemy against the Holy Spirit?

but sin that leads to death . is just that

Can you elaborate on that? Please?

 

[Michael Collum]

Not necessarily. Jesus mentions sin that cannot be forgiven. Are Christians exempted from this? Isn't it the intention of Christ to warn us to avoid this sin? Isn't a sin unto death a sin that is unforgivable like blasphemy against the Holy Spirit?



Can you elaborate on that? Please?

It just seems presumptuous to say that a sin that leads to death is that sin . because one leads to the second death .. and another just leads to death .

 

[John_Jervis]

It just seems presumptuous to say that a sin that leads to death is that sin .

Well then, you must consider why would James say this:

There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.

Why would you think James would say to not pray for it if indeed the sin can be forgiven?

And if possible please answer the questions: Are Christians exempted from this? Isn't it the intention of Christ to warn us to avoid this sin?

because one leads to the second death .. and another just leads to death .

You mean the other leads to hell and the other to physical death? Can you give us some more details regarding this?

 

[GodSpeaks]

If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.
1 Jn 5:16

Jesus mentions sin that cannot be forgiven. Are Christians exempted from this?


No. He plainly says not to pray for that. But if he has done something to us we forgive him and can ask that the Lord not to hold it against him.

Isn't it the intention of Christ to warn us to avoid this sin?

Yes

 

[Michael Collum]

Well then, you must consider why would James say this:

There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.

Why would you think James would say to not pray for it if indeed the sin can be forgiven?

It was in 1st John regarding that quote . but 1st John and James make great commentaries of one another .

but the premise of sins being forgiven is not the healing . but us confessing them as stated earlier in 1st John .

i get the impression if the sin will lead to death . then there is no point praying for them . they need to repent .. at which point God will need to make a decision . based on their living prayer .

And if possible please answer the questions: Are Christians exempted from this? Isn't it the intention of Christ to warn us to avoid this sin?

i think it is important to distinguish from death that frees from sin (romans) .. and the second death since there are varied opinions on this

You mean the other leads to hell and the other to physical death? Can you give us some more details regarding this?

well death is death . death is not anathema when maranatha .

 

[John_Jervis]

It was in 1st John regarding that quote .

Ah yes, thanks for that.

i get the impression if the sin will lead to death . then there is no point praying for them . they need to repent ..

So a sin that will not lead to death needs no repentance?

at which point God will need to make a decision . based on their living prayer .

Your biblical basis for this please?

i think it is important to distinguish from death that frees from sin (romans) .. and the second death since there are varied opinions on this

And what is your opinion?

well death is death . death is not anathema when maranatha .

You said that "because one leads to the second death .. and another just leads to death ."

So a sin unto death leads to maranatha? This is really vague and confusing. Can you clarify?

 

[Michael Collum]

Ah yes, thanks for that.

No problem

So a sin that will not lead to death needs no repentance?

Well . it does . but not for the same reason

Your biblical basis for this please?

The ezekiel passage i cited earlier .

Ezekiel 33:14-16 (King James Version)

14Again, when I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; if he turn from his sin, and do that which is lawful and right;
15If the wicked restore the pledge, give again that he had robbed, walk in the statutes of life, without committing iniquity; he shall surely live, he shall not die.
16None of his sins that he hath committed shall be mentioned unto him: he hath done that which is lawful and right; he shall surely live.

And what is your opinion?

That would be beyond the scope of this thread . but if you would like to discuss this in PMs i would be happy to elaborate .

You said that "because one leads to the second death .. and another just leads to death ."

So a sin unto death leads to maranatha? This is really vague and confusing. Can you clarify?

Well maranatha is when the lord comes . but anathema is being eternally condemned like in Galatians 1:8-9 .

The second death is something different than the carnal death . there appears to be no evidence saying one way or another that a sin unto death is a sin that causes damnation . but i would agree that the passage does make it sound serious .

So since the scripture has not identified that .. that which leads to .. that which frees from sin ..

is not that which those resurrected unto shame .. are placed in ..

then they appear to be two separate things .. though i would agree that sin that is "unto" death is very serious .

 

[John_Jervis]

I appreciate you answering my question Michael. If you don't mind please answer the previous ones directly:

Jesus mentions sin that cannot be forgiven. Are Christians exempted from this? Isn't it the intention of Christ to warn us to avoid this sin?

Yes or no please.

Well . it does . but not for the same reason

If both requires repentance, then why did you say: "i get the impression if the sin will lead to death . then there is no point praying for them . they need to repent .. "

The concept that I think you were trying to point out is that they need to repent for there is no point for praying to them because they need to repent. But the sin that does not lead to death requires praying. So how is that? Is there is there no point for praying for them who commits the sin that is not unto death or is there? I do hope you are getting my point.

The ezekiel passage i cited earlier .

Ezekiel 33:14-16 (King James Version)

14Again, when I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; if he turn from his sin, and do that which is lawful and right;
15If the wicked restore the pledge, give again that he had robbed, walk in the statutes of life, without committing iniquity; he shall surely live, he shall not die.
16None of his sins that he hath committed shall be mentioned unto him: he hath done that which is lawful and right; he shall surely live.

I cannot question what is on the Bible but my query is more on what is your opinion on what Jesus and John mentioned. Can the unforgivable sin be applied for this sin mentioned in Ezekiel? Can not a person pray for the sins mentioned in Ezekiel?

That would be beyond the scope of this thread . but if you would like to discuss this in PMs i would be happy to elaborate .

Then let me rephrase the question so it would suit this thread. You said that about the second death, people has varied opinions. Are you saying that the second death would be applied to those who made this unforgivable sin mentioned by Christ?

Well maranatha is when the lord comes . but anathema is being eternally condemned like in Galatians 1:8-9 .

Yes, I am aware of that. And that is also being taught by the preachers in our Church.

The second death is something different than the carnal death . there appears to be no evidence saying one way or another that a sin unto death is a sin that causes damnation .

Let me try to put it this way. Would the unforgivable sin cause damnation?

but i would agree that the passage does make it sound serious .

At least we agree on that

So since the scripture has not identified that .. that which leads to .. that which frees from sin ..

is not that which those resurrected unto shame .. are placed in ..

Scriptures identifies forgivable and unforgivable sins. Is this not so?

then they appear to be two separate things .. though i would agree that sin that is "unto" death is very serious .

Amen.

To make this easier for both us, let me ask this, is it your opinion that there an unforgivable sin? If so, was Christ warning Christians about it in the verses in Matthew?

 

[Michael Collum]

Jesus mentions sin that cannot be forgiven. Are Christians exempted from this? Isn't it the intention of Christ to warn us to avoid this sin?

The sin Jesus mentions is the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit . which happens when one equates the work of the Holy Spirit as the work of the devil . . Jesus was warning the pharisees after duplicating the same behavior . so it's not for Christians .. perse .. but maybe more today for church people . whether weeds or tares .

You said that about the second death, people has varied opinions. Are you saying that the second death would be applied to those who made this unforgivable sin mentioned by Christ?

not necessarily . the scripture does not explicitly say that . all that is said is the Holy Spirit will not forgive that one . but .. Jesus has been entrusted with judgment .. so not sure exactly the implications .. but it cannot be good .

Let me try to put it this way. Would the unforgivable sin cause damnation?

hm . the text is inconclusive about that . because it says Jesus will forgive any offense but the Holy Spirit will not forgive .. and earlier the word says that the Father only forgives if we forgive others . so the implications of that unforgiveness appear inconclusive at the moment .

To make this easier for both us, let me ask this, is it your opinion that there an unforgivable sin? If so, was Christ warning Christians about it in the verses in Matthew?

Scriptures identifies forgivable and unforgivable sins. Is this not so?

Yes .

there are a number of unforgivable sins .

1) Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit .. well the Holy Spirit won't forgive you anyway .
2) Receiving the mark of the beast .. i believe makes it impossible to receive salvation .. because they pledged their allegiance to sin or the instinctual nature .
3) calling a brother or sister in Christ a "fool" (meaning devoid of moral substance) is also an offense that can make one in "danger" of that fire . which is related to #1
4) Apparently denying Christ before people can make it so you are denied before the Father and His angels (redeemable, but if you die immediately after doing this it would seem suspect .. that's all . )
5) Apparently not helping the poor or least among you can be interpreted as treating God with contempt .. and you can go to hell for that too .
6) apparently when people's hearts go cold when iniquity increases .. if you keep on loving .. then you will be saved . but if you don't .. i dunno it kinda leaves that part out .
7) The ten virgins parable . being unprepared for the coming of the Lord by trying to "buy" the oil of the Holy Spirit so you can do miracles .. apparently leaves you in a place where Jesus says .. i never knew you . because those who really know Him trust Him to receive the Spirit as in the beginning (Gal 3:1-3) .. not doing works to be blessed . i tell you the truth . they have their reward .

and as for forgivable sins .

1 John 1:9
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.

So long as there is time to repent .. and confess our sins .. then hey . God is faithful . and who am i to argue?

Jude 1:24-25
24To him who is able to keep you from falling and to present you before his glorious presence without fault and with great joy— 25to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.

 

[Michael Collum]

Hey John, I think i missed this strain of your response and it is a different topic so i'll respond here separately .

If both requires repentance, then why did you say: "i get the impression if the sin will lead to death . then there is no point praying for them . they need to repent .. "

The concept that I think you were trying to point out is that they need to repent for there is no point for praying to them because they need to repent. But the sin that does not lead to death requires praying. So how is that? Is there is there no point for praying for them who commits the sin that is not unto death or is there? I do hope you are getting my point.

I cannot question what is on the Bible but my query is more on what is your opinion on what Jesus and John mentioned. Can the unforgivable sin be applied for this sin mentioned in Ezekiel? Can not a person pray for the sins mentioned in Ezekiel?

It isn't that prayer is required .. and even with the sin that leads to death .. it's kinda placed as a "you are not obligated to pray" but i've prayed for people who were going to die . and it was horrible . but hey . Jesus reached in for me . so why not?

But it is just that . when you are in that place . the only thing you can do is focus on the Lord . because everything that is a temptation that normally leads to sin .. becomes a sin that leads to death . it's a growth stage as outlined in the james letter . "when sin is fully grown it gives birth to death"

The point with the ezekiel verse is . it is speaking of a sin at which God is saying "you will surely die" and what God expects at that time . so i was posting the ezekiel verse according to the premise that sin which leads to death . is not an unforgivable sin .

 

[JesusLovesAll]

Going out on a random thought here.
Couldn't the 2nd death mean resurrection of the wicked flesh then death to it again after repentance?
Is that what your saying?
Im confused.. But I think it could mean that... Seen it a few times myself

 

[John_Jervis]

Thanks again Michael for your answers. I appreciate them.

Now moving on,

The sin Jesus mentions is the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit . which happens when one equates the work of the Holy Spirit as the work of the devil . . Jesus was warning the pharisees after duplicating the same behavior . so it's not for Christians .. perse ..

but maybe more today for church people . whether weeds or tares .

I agree, it is for Church people.

So tares could be the people who committed unforgivable sins?

not necessarily . the scripture does not explicitly say that . all that is said is the Holy Spirit will not forgive that one . but .. Jesus has been entrusted with judgment .. so not sure exactly the implications .. but it cannot be good .

So it's possible it could lead to damnation? And nothing can be good about damnation right?

hm . the text is inconclusive about that . because it says Jesus will forgive any offense but the Holy Spirit will not forgive .. and earlier the word says that the Father only forgives if we forgive others . so the implications of that unforgiveness appear inconclusive at the moment .

The phrase " it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come." Is that not conclusive enough?

Yes .

there are a number of unforgivable sins .

Amen and amen. I agree. We are indeed making progress.

There are even unforgivable sins not included in your list. Now if there are forgivable sins and unforgivable sins, is it not possible that the sin not unto death are for forgivable sins and the sins unto death are the unforgivable sins?

 

[John_Jervis]

Hey John, I think i missed this strain of your response and it is a different topic so i'll respond here separately .

No worries

It isn't that prayer is required .. and even with the sin that leads to death .. it's kinda placed as a "you are not obligated to pray" but i've prayed for people who were going to die . and it was horrible . but hey . Jesus reached in for me . so why not?

You mean the death you are referring to is physical death? I'm sorry, I don't follow.

But it is just that . when you are in that place . the only thing you can do is focus on the Lord . because everything that is a temptation that normally leads to sin .. becomes a sin that leads to death . it's a growth stage as outlined in the james letter . "when sin is fully grown it gives birth to death"

Lets' discuss that.

When a Christian sins before it leads to death, those sins can be prayed for, correct?
Surely both of us would agree that these sins are forgivable?

But when a Christian sins and that these sins lead to death, is it not safe to conclude that these are now the sins that what John is referring to, the sins unto death?

And if these sins give birth to death, is it not possible that these are the unforgivable sins being mentioned by numerous verses of the bible?

The point with the ezekiel verse is . it is speaking of a sin at which God is saying "you will surely die" and what God expects at that time . so i was posting the ezekiel verse according to the premise that sin which leads to death . is not an unforgivable sin .

James already clarified that for us. There are sins but after a some time, if not repented brings forth death.

I agree what King Mannashe did are forgivable sins. But if he didn't repent, and his sins gave birth to death, would it not constitute an unforgivable sin?

 

[John_Jervis]

Going out on a random thought here.
Couldn't the 2nd death mean resurrection of the wicked flesh then death to it again after repentance?
Is that what your saying?
Im confused.. But I think it could mean that... Seen it a few times myself

second death in the bible is defined as:

And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Rev 20:14-15

 

[JesusLovesAll]

So whats the basis?
Does this book have an eraser or not?
Thats what I cant understand.

 

[John_Jervis]

So whats the basis?
Does this book have an eraser or not?
Thats what I cant understand.

Apparently, biblically speaking, there is an eraser:

And Moses returned unto the LORD, and said, Oh, this people have sinned a great sin, and have made them gods of gold.
Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin--; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written.
And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.
Exo 32:31-33

 

[JesusLovesAll]

The NT and the OT better translated as
New Covenant and the Old Covenant.
So, whats the history about it and what book is God talking about?
The book of life controlled by Jesus or another under the Old Covenant????