Future Facts (israel, The Bride, Millennium Kingdom)

Mr. Darby said:
Anyone can read such Church Fathers as Irenaeus and Justin, and you will find that a futuristic approach to prophecy (and by extension Premillennialism) stretches back to the earliest post apostolic writers. Many of these Fathers really did not seem to be too concerned with Israel's future, but the fact that the Jews helped to bring persecution on the early church likely contributed to that fact. They did believe in a future Tribulation, and AntiChrist, and a literal Millennium on Earth. There is also evidence that some of them, at least, apparently did believe in a Pre-Trib Rapture. I am currently working on condensing some messages I preached on this into some articles, and hopefully will be able to post them on the forum here when I am finished writing them.

I mention this for the benefit of those who would like to check it out for themselves. Rusty's mind will not be changed, and I would encourage other Premillennialists here to refrain from endless arguments with Him.
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Agreed my brother!
 
netchaplain said:
I just like sharing spiritual growth teachings from writers a few centuries ago and there's a life-time of it.

Concerning eschatology, I believe its blessings (Rev 22:7) represents God's omniscience and omnipotence, but other than this it is not directly used as much for spiritual growth in Christ's image. Myself, I'm always ready to improvise my concepts concerning the end-times doctrines because Scripture is not as clear revealing its material, esp. when it comes to the chronology of the events. And as Rumely indicated, it's not salvation essential, other than for exhortation, in my opinion.
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I am with you and agree with you and hope you do go on with your work. I also encourage you to look back at post #8.
 
DRS, like you, I am interested in learning as well - but having read all 4 of your url's - I find myself disagreeing on certain points in all of them. Maybe the 5th would be the Picker and Chooser menu on all of the above :). Or Jack Williamson coined the best "Pan Millenialist". In that version, you trust that God will make it all "pan out" in the long run.
 
netchaplain said:
The Reformers and those among them around the 15 and 1600s were used to bring about a separation from Roman Catholicism and advocate individuality in the Father through Christ. Many since these teachers have been used to further the spiritual growth they have made possible.
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NC......I would add that IMO God gives man what He knows we will be able to understand in "Portions".

The Holy Spirit enlightens man in certain times with the knowdledge needed for that time.

That is why Schofield and Darby were able to bring about the revelation of the end times as they did because God knew that the last days were coming closer and closer. Therefore, He brought about the knowledge and proper understanding so that we would be aware.

Gill, and McHenry, and all the great fathers of Christainity that wrote their beliefs BEFORE Schofield and Darby did so with the concerns of their day on their mind such as the Protestant seperation from the RCC as you mentioned, saved by grace doctrine and so forth.

That does not mean that Schafer, and Green, and Woolvorod & McGee etc. are some how teaching error as has been suggested and somehow, these men are heritics because they expounded a doctrine which is now universaly known. We may not agree with Dispensationalism, and premillinialism but there is no way in the world we can call these men in error because we do not agree with them.
 
Silk said:
DRS, like you, I am interested in learning as well - but having read all 4 of your url's - I find myself disagreeing on certain points in all of them. Maybe the 5th would be the Picker and Chooser menu on all of the above :). Or Jack Williamson coined the best "Pan Millenialist". In that version, you trust that God will make it all "pan out" in the long run.
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I used to belong to a denomination where the term 'panmillennial' was a running joke. I never liked that term because it seemed to suggest that we should just let a majority of the scriptures go without concerning ourselves with them. Some in the congregation had pretty much the attitude of 'We can't know what is going to happen, so let's not worry about it.' The problem is that if there really are going to be last days with mass deception, we will be deceived ourselves if we do not know something of what the Bible says about the last days. I've seen Christians embrace radical politics because they wanted to bring in the Kingdom 'now'. A knowledge of eschatology would have prevented that.
 
Mr. Darby said:
I used to belong to a denomination where the term 'panmillennial' was a running joke. I never liked that term because it seemed to suggest that we should just let a majority of the scriptures go without concerning ourselves with them. Some in the congregation had pretty much the attitude of 'We can't know what is going to happen, so let's not worry about it.' The problem is that if there really are going to be last days with mass deception, we will be deceived ourselves if we do not know something of what the Bible says about the last days. I've seen Christians embrace radical politics because they wanted to bring in the Kingdom 'now'. A knowledge of eschatology would have prevented that.
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I did use the "pan-millenium" thing as a joke. I do believe we are going into the "end times" predicted in Revelations. I even agree with Major that God reveals his plan in the "doses" man can understand at the time. It is my opinion that the decoding of Revelations true message will only be deciphered by the end times generation or the one just slightly before, however you want to decipher "generation".
In the 1st url DRS lists - I don't buy the Rapture. In fact, if any one thing was more dangerous to Christians than this concept - I don't know what is. If you buy the Rapture, as Christ collecting "his folks" while the tribulation goes on - you might just question your whole approach to God because you weren't taken prior to a tribulation. You might be deceived as to the true beginning of the Tribulation, if you are sitting around waiting. Unless the Rapture means temporal death. I don't know a Christian who doesn't hope the Rapture is true but actually there is no scriptural evidence of it that is fool proof or IMO convincing. It would be a great destabalizing for the AC to use against us. That Christians would set up a Temple to make "sacrifices" in memory of Christ during his millenial reign makes no sense. Why do we need memories when he is living in our midst? In his reign won't all truth be known? Revelations seems to say to me that Christ/God promises overcomers that we will go back to the original legacy of man without original sin. Once you know the truth of the dark and the light - good versus evil - why would you possibly choose evil and dark? Right now doubters can say "nobody knows" regarding God. But then - WE WILL. KNOW. Where does it state why Satan is bound for 1000 years only to be released. I guess any guess is as good as another. I'm willing to agree that the Millenium reign is a last chance for all humankind to know the truth and THEN make their choice.
The 2nd url says that Christians replace Jews. I don't agree. I do think they have to accept Christ to be saved. That will merge us. I don't think Gog and Magog happen after the Millenial Reign. Otherwise - same complaints as the 1st url.
The 3rd url says 1000 years is an era not an exact time span. Christ 2nd Coming happens after the Millenial Reign. The Church replaces the Jews. They are more covenants and one superseding another.
The 4th url says Christs reign begins after his resurrection (2000 not 1000 years?). Most all of apocalyptic scripture is not taken at all literally and pretty much ignored.
As I said I got problems with all of them and actually, I suppose a case can be made for all of them. IMO not a good or accurate case. If I have misunderstood - please enlighten me.
 
Silk.......that is a long list and it is all virtually in error.

1st..........The truth is that the Rapture is seen all through the Bible, or as Rusty would say......"Symbols" of the Rapture are there if we look with spiritual eyes.

The 1st IMO would be the example of Enoch. He is a picture, or a type if you will. There are many, many types to be seen.

If anyone does not want to accept the doctrine of the Rapture, no problem for me because I am not going to argue it.
It is to be believed based on Scriptured, NOT argued into accepting.

The 2nd URL you spoke of. You are absolutly Biblically correct. The church does not replace Israel Again, do not believe me or anyone else. Rely on what the Scriptures tell you through the prompting of the Holy Spirit.

3rd......Yes, it is 1000 years. Rev. 20:1-3 is as clear as a pimple on your nose. God said 1000 years and I do not know more than God to say that He is wrong. If someone says that it is not 1000 years they are in effect calling God a liar.

4th.......Christ rose from the dead 2000 years ago. He will not die again and He will not be resurrected again. He is coming to judge the wicked lost world and to make war.

I am very glad to se you say that you have problems with these sites because All of these are clear examples of Biblical ignorance and I would encourage everyone to simply read their Bible praying for direction from the Holy Spirit.

Honestly, it really is not as hard as some people make it out to be. Some people present the prophectic Word of God as if they are doing brain surgery.

God said what He wanted to say. He meant what He said and that is pretty much it. What we need to do is BELIEVE what He said!
 
Netchaplain,

Although I disagree with your first few paragraphs and dispensationalism in general, that's not what I want to ask. You said animal sacrifices will resume as in Ezekiel 40 - 48, not that I disagree, but from what I understand, this isn't a common thought believe within dispensationalists. I Could be wrong though.

As well, do you have any thoughts on the remaining 3 fall feasts that need to be fulfilled, or is that outside of your believes and whether it has any bearing on prophecy?

Blessings
 
Because I don't see the Rapture as a foregone part of God's plan does not mean I am not reading with spiritual eyes. I hope in my heart that the Rapture happens but I seriously worry what happens to Believers if it does not occur. I'm not a big fan of labels, however, if the definitions already given don't represent the thoughts of the 4 groups than I would ask for better definitions. I ditto Lepko's question regarding animal sacrifice as a plank of anyone's belief.
 
All of the Dispensationalists that I know of believe that there will be a resumption of sacrifices as Ezekiel prophesies, including yours truly. There are a diversity of explanations of this fact among Dispensationalists. I must freely admit that I do not fully understand all the reasons for this resumption of sacrifices, though I think they may have some relation to the fact that sacrifice is part of God's covenant with Israel. I also think they may have some role as commemorating the death of Christ, but these are just guesses on my part. I need to take time to study this more.
 
Rusty said:
Yes...this is a wobbly Dispensationlist/Darbyite theory, wholly without merit in the eyes of those that see without literalist rosy glasses. The fact that the book of Ezekiel deals with historical facts in ancient Israel (some that happened and some that did not due to the unfaithfulness of the Hebrews) kicks the struts out from under this elaborate and fantastical fantasy, IMO.
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Without merit????

Zech 14:16-18............................. “And it shall come to pass that everyone who is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. And it shall be that whichever of the families of the earth do not come up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, on them there will be no rain. If the family of Egypt will not come up and enter in, they shall have no rain; they shall receive the plague with which the LORD strikes the nations who do not come up to keep the Feast of Tabernacles.”

v.21 ........................“Yes, every pot in Jerusalem and Judah shall be holiness to the LORD of hosts. Everyone who sacrifices shall come and take them and cook in them. In that day there shall no longer be a Canaanite in the house of the LORD of hosts.”

Isaiah also says, Isaiah 56:7................. “Even them I will bring to My holy mountain, and make them joyful in My house of prayer. Their burnt offerings and their sacrifices will be accepted on My altar; for My house shall be called a house of prayer for all nations."

Isa 66:23 ......................."And it shall come to pass that from one New Moon to another, and from one Sabbath to another, all flesh shall come to worship before Me," says the LORD. Isa. 66:23 teaches that we will keep the Sabbath, it also teaches we will keep the New Moon festival! This is on earth in the Millennium period- not in heaven."

It really is not that difficult to understand. WHY do we as Christians partake of the Lord's Supper today????? REMEMBERANCE!!

The problem is easily solved if we view them as being COMMEMORATIVE rather than EFFICACIOUS.

The sacrifices will be a memorial, just as communion is practiced today looking back. They will not be propitiation, or effacacious (they will have no power to redeem) but are a reminder of what took place. The reason this will be instituted is because there will be many unbelievers born in the Millennial period, they will be sinners that will need to understand the sacrifice Christ did. Since his sacrifice is the final one, that cannot be repeated the types he fulfilled will be illustrative of his accomplishment. Just as the church is commanded to continue the Lord's Supper until he comes.
(letusreason.org).
 
Silk said:
Because I don't see the Rapture as a foregone part of God's plan does not mean I am not reading with spiritual eyes. I hope in my heart that the Rapture happens but I seriously worry what happens to Believers if it does not occur. I'm not a big fan of labels, however, if the definitions already given don't represent the thoughts of the 4 groups than I would ask for better definitions. I ditto Lepko's question regarding animal sacrifice as a plank of anyone's belief.
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Well, it will not be a good day for a lot of people will it?
 
Major said:
Without merit????

Zech 14:16-18............................. “And it shall come to pass that everyone who is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. And it shall be that whichever of the families of the earth do not come up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, on them there will be no rain. If the family of Egypt will not come up and enter in, they shall have no rain; they shall receive the plague with which the LORD strikes the nations who do not come up to keep the Feast of Tabernacles.”

v.21 ........................“Yes, every pot in Jerusalem and Judah shall be holiness to the LORD of hosts. Everyone who sacrifices shall come and take them and cook in them. In that day there shall no longer be a Canaanite in the house of the LORD of hosts.”

Isaiah also says, Isaiah 56:7................. “Even them I will bring to My holy mountain, and make them joyful in My house of prayer. Their burnt offerings and their sacrifices will be accepted on My altar; for My house shall be called a house of prayer for all nations."

Isa 66:23 ......................."And it shall come to pass that from one New Moon to another, and from one Sabbath to another, all flesh shall come to worship before Me," says the LORD. Isa. 66:23 teaches that we will keep the Sabbath, it also teaches we will keep the New Moon festival! This is on earth in the Millennium period- not in heaven."

It really is not that difficult to understand. WHY do we as Christians partake of the Lord's Supper today????? REMEMBERANCE!!

The problem is easily solved if we view them as being COMMEMORATIVE rather than EFFICACIOUS.

The sacrifices will be a memorial, just as communion is practiced today looking back. They will not be propitiation, or effacacious (they will have no power to redeem) but are a reminder of what took place. The reason this will be instituted is because there will be many unbelievers born in the Millennial period, they will be sinners that will need to understand the sacrifice Christ did. Since his sacrifice is the final one, that cannot be repeated the types he fulfilled will be illustrative of his accomplishment. Just as the church is commanded to continue the Lord's Supper until he comes.
(letusreason.org).
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Thanks for that Major.
 
Silk said:
So communion won't be commemorative enough? I don't think so.
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Ezekiel 43:18-26

18 And he said unto me, Son of man, thus saith the Lord GOD; These are the ordinances of the altar in the day when they shall make it, to offer burnt offerings thereon, and to sprinkle blood thereon.
19 And thou shalt give to the priests the Levites that be of the seed of Zadok, which approach unto me, to minister unto me, saith the Lord GOD, a young bullock for a sin offering.
20 And thou shalt take of the blood thereof, and put it on the four horns of it, and on the four corners of the settle, and upon the border round about: thus shalt thou cleanse and purge it.
21 Thou shalt take the bullock also of the sin offering, and he shall burn it in the appointed place of the house, without the sanctuary.
22 And on the second day thou shalt offer a kid of the goats without blemish for a sin offering; and they shall cleanse the altar, as they did cleanse it with the bullock.
23 When thou hast made an end of cleansing it, thou shalt offer a young bullock without blemish, and a ram out of the flock without blemish.
24 And thou shalt offer them before the LORD, and the priests shall cast salt upon them, and they shall offer them up for a burnt offering unto the LORD.
25 Seven days shalt thou prepare every day a goat for a sin offering: they shall also prepare a young bullock, and a ram out of the flock, without blemish.
26 Seven days shall they purge the altar and purify it; and they shall consecrate themselves.

It would seem that the purpose has to do with cleansing the Temple furniture during the Millennium. It could not be for us, since the death of Christ was the only sacrifice needed for that.

Hebrews 10:4,10-14

For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.
For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
 
Even for "cleansing", I don't see a reason for this today, nor in the Millenial Kingdom. Churches have been built and consecrated to God throughout the ages since the Resurrection and has not involved this. The only thing I can say is mayhaps, the OT prophets were seeing cleansing as they understood it back then. The Tribulation will be filled enough with the slaughter of humans and animals for this to make sense in a New Day. I go back to Adam and Eve before Original Sin, and nowhere was this done.
That is not that I didn't understand what you have posted and I thank you for your efforts to answer. I still cannot buy into it.
 
Ultimately, there are many things in scripture that I cannot understand, but if they are there in black and white, I must believe it despite my lack of understanding. To me, that is where trusting God comes in.

I would make mention of your comment on consecration. I would certainly not support consecrating 'churches' because the church is not a building. The church is the body of Christ, and we have been consecrated by his blood. The temple on the other hand is a different thing. When God called Israel out of Egypt, he gave them instructions for building the Tabernacle. They had to consecrate it because it was to be the place where God would manifest his presence in their midst. When Solomon built the Temple, it was consecrated and God dwelt there, filling it with his glory. Prior to this description of the Millennial Temple, Ezekiel had described God leaving the Temple prior to the Babylonian invasion. God abandoned dwelling in Israel's midst because of their sins. The Millennium is a time when the presence of God will once again dwell with Israel in a physical Temple. He will rule from his Sanctuary in the midst of his chosen people. Malachi 3:1,

Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.

Zechariah 14:9,16-21

And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.

And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
In that day shall there be upon the bells of the horses, HOLINESS UNTO THE LORD; and the pots in the LORD'S house shall be like the bowls before the altar.
Yea, every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holiness unto the LORD of hosts: and all they that sacrifice shall come and take of them, and seethe therein: and in that day there shall be no more the Canaanite in the house of the LORD of hosts.

Seeing as how the other dwelling places were consecrated, it would be no surprise that God's future dwelling in Israel's midst would not be consecrated as well. Remember, Christ's death was for men. He did not especially die to consecrate objects. I think that would be the difference here.

However, as I have said, this is not a passage that I have studied a lot about. I can only say that I believe it despite my lack of understanding.
 
Mr.D - I have understood what you have posted.
Joh_2:19
Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.


I have no problem, accepting what God wants, I'm just not sure He will want this in the Millenial Kingdom. It is not in black and white, for me, but just another of man's interpetation of what they think He wants. I can see multiple reasons for the why of animal sacrifice of yesteryear but I don't see it as anything God wants for himself but rather for Humanity and after the second coming - it will have to be elucidated for me, if the need for animal sacrifice is still there.
 
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