Gen1

I legitimately want to understand what you're trying to say. I asked questions to give you the opportunity to explain what you mean, instead of making assumptions, which to me seems like exactly the opposite of launching a personal attack.

Let's take another look at your post:



I'm looking at it "in context". I still have the same questions. I'm not attacking you, Bill, I'm trying to find out what you mean. If I ask you questions for clarification, it's a sign of respect for your opinion, it means I want to find out more.
Then if you will read the posts since yours, you might begin to see what was meant?
 
Then if you will read the posts since yours, you might begin to see what was meant?

I can see that you mean soldiers need to work a 7-day work week during their duty out of necessity. I can think of other occupations and situations where others besides soldiers may also need to do the same. Jesus provided an example of that Himself in Luke 13:10-17. If you've explained the other elements of your statement, I have to admit that I'm at a loss to see it.
 
I can see that you mean soldiers need to work a 7-day work week during their duty out of necessity. I can think of other occupations and situations where others besides soldiers may also need to do the same. Jesus provided an example of that Himself in Luke 13:10-17. If you've explained the other elements of your statement, I have to admit that I'm at a loss to see it.
I went back and I reread your post but in truth, it is agenda laden and I'm not into agendas. I've said it many times, science and scripture need no reconciliation and you are attempting to have me do just that and I refuse. I follow God and none other. And then you allude to "your" interpreting scripture and neither I nor you nor any man can do that. The scripture is written to be a mystery to the lost man and it only becomes understandable when we are indwelt by the Holy Spirit of God. When one seeks to interpret the Word of God, excluding language work, one places themselves as equals with the Author. I understand what I know about the Word, only, because the Spirit teaches me.

Attempting to mix science with scripture just will never be.
 
I understand where Bill is coming from in his statement. His point is that in faith, everything else is just cream cheese -- in other words, it's meaningless. I would agree with that.

Though I would say the truth and science do often align and this is a great means to use when witnessing to Atheists. For instance, many Atheist Evolutionists lay out ten steps necessary to the course of human evolution. Each step is so improbable that before it would even occur, the sun would have ceased to be a main sequent star and would have burned up the earth.

So the one could hold to the Atheist that if evolution is absolutely true, it would have needed a miracle from God to restrict this from happening. In other words, this provides evidence for God against Atheist Evolutionist rhetoric!

I would submit that God has put in place scientific order within the world -- without it, how could one identify a miracle from something orderly? That is why miracles are so fantastic -- they intervene on all scientific orders.

I hope this makes sense.
 
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I understand where Bill is coming from in his statement. His point is that in faith, everything else is just cream cheese -- in other words, it's meaningless. I would agree with that.

Though I would say the truth and science do often align and this is a great means to use when witnessing to Atheists. For instance, many Atheist Evolutionists lay out ten steps necessary to the course of human evolution. Each step is so improbable that before it would even occur, the sun would have ceased to be a main sequent star and would have burned up the earth.

So the one could hold to the Atheist that if evolution is absolutely true, it would have needed a miracle from God to restrict this from happening. In other words, this provides evidence for God against Atheist Evolutionist rhetoric!

I would submit that God has put in place scientific order within the world -- without it, how could one identify a miracle from something orderly? That is why miracles are so fantastic -- they intervene on all scientific orders.

I hope this makes sense.
When approached from that angle, it makes perfect sense. Having been raised an Atheist and trained to be a professional criminal, until God spoke to me, your assessment describes where I stood to a tee. On the other hand, from life experience, since salvation, I know that trying to witness to a resistant Atheist is much like beating one's head against the brick wall outside City Hall. And then, when God has prepared one for us to speak to
 
When approached from that angle, it makes perfect sense. Having been raised an Atheist and trained to be a professional criminal, until God spoke to me, your assessment describes where I stood to a tee. On the other hand, from life experience, since salvation, I know that trying to witness to a resistant Atheist is much like beating one's head against the brick wall outside City Hall. And then, when God has prepared one for us to speak to

Indeed, Bill -- you hit the nail right on the head.

When witnessing to an Atheist (or ANYONE regardless of their belief for that matter), it can only be effective if he is willing to be open. You were raised as an Atheist and you were open-minded enough to listen to the truth.

I think this is the importance of Christian apologetics. We're living in a generation where information is more available to us than ever before. People are learning more and more, but with that, people can also be learning false information. It is extremely important for us all to be able to have an answer to their criticisms. Some might only be asking out of the sake to "win an argument." Others might be asking out of pure curiosity.

But whether it's because they're curious or because they want to win an argument, we should always have an answer (and if we don't, we should never pretend we know -- we should tell them we'll find out and get back to them).

At the very, very least, we want to plant some seeds in hopes that they may come to Christ--whether it was emotion that drove them or reason.
 
Indeed, Bill -- you hit the nail right on the head.

When witnessing to an Atheist (or ANYONE regardless of their belief for that matter), it can only be effective if he is willing to be open. You were raised as an Atheist and you were open-minded enough to listen to the truth.

I think this is the importance of Christian apologetics. We're living in a generation where information is more available to us than ever before. People are learning more and more, but with that, people can also be learning false information. It is extremely important for us all to be able to have an answer to their criticisms. Some might only be asking out of the sake to "win an argument." Others might be asking out of pure curiosity.

But whether it's because they're curious or because they want to win an argument, we should always have an answer (and if we don't, we should never pretend we know -- we should tell them we'll find out and get back to them).

At the very, very least, we want to plant some seeds in hopes that they may come to Christ--whether it was emotion that drove them or reason.

While I understand your point and in fact agree, I would like to add that every single time I have had people come to talk to me, it is never on scientific problems or proof of Creation or did Adam and Eve have a belly button.

It is always a SIN problem. SIN has dominated them, and led them to go farther than they wanted to go and stay longer than they wanted to stay.

A man may well say he has scientific concerns and he would get saved if he could just prove the equation of causeation or if someone could explain why the this this blue or why the moon is made of cheese and on and on.

But when we get down to what he is wanting and why he is wanting to talk with me.......it is SIN!
 
Indeed, Bill -- you hit the nail right on the head.

When witnessing to an Atheist (or ANYONE regardless of their belief for that matter), it can only be effective if he is willing to be open. You were raised as an Atheist and you were open-minded enough to listen to the truth.

I think this is the importance of Christian apologetics. We're living in a generation where information is more available to us than ever before. People are learning more and more, but with that, people can also be learning false information. It is extremely important for us all to be able to have an answer to their criticisms. Some might only be asking out of the sake to "win an argument." Others might be asking out of pure curiosity.

But whether it's because they're curious or because they want to win an argument, we should always have an answer (and if we don't, we should never pretend we know -- we should tell them we'll find out and get back to them).

At the very, very least, we want to plant some seeds in hopes that they may come to Christ--whether it was emotion that drove them or reason.
True but sadly the Church is in no better condition today than it was when I, routinely, forced Pastors and Priests into the Crawfish mode, in the sixties. And when the teacher has not the answer, neither does the student. Raised a practicing Atheist, I oft knew the Bible better than the preacher... sad. And folks get upset when I bring up the point that 98% of the membership, in any church building, are Pew Whales but they run in on Sunday, to late for small group studies and sometimes after the Pastor has begun... with the feed me, feed me, feed me bag drapped from their chins. Then they represent Christ all week? NO! But the world thinks they do.
 
While I understand your point and in fact agree, I would like to add that every single time I have had people come to talk to me, it is never on scientific problems or proof of Creation or did Adam and Eve have a belly button.

It is always a SIN problem. SIN has dominated them, and led them to go farther than they wanted to go and stay longer than they wanted to stay.

A man may well say he has scientific concerns and he would get saved if he could just prove the equation of causeation or if someone could explain why the this this blue or why the moon is made of cheese and on and on.

But when we get down to what he is wanting and why he is wanting to talk with me.......it is SIN!

Oh, indeed. I'd say that's the majority of what I seem to deal with too. There should be an answer for everything.

Sometimes, it doesn't matter what answer you give--their intent is to bully. That's when you take a step back and say "I guess we're done here, aren't we?"
 
True but sadly the Church is in no better condition today than it was when I, routinely, forced Pastors and Priests into the Crawfish mode, in the sixties. And when the teacher has not the answer, neither does the student. Raised a practicing Atheist, I oft knew the Bible better than the preacher... sad. And folks get upset when I bring up the point that 98% of the membership, in any church building, are Pew Whales but they run in on Sunday, to late for small group studies and sometimes after the Pastor has begun... with the feed me, feed me, feed me bag drapped from their chins. Then they represent Christ all week? NO! But the world thinks they do.

Yes, this is a whole different problem, and one of the worst in my opinion. I'd rather folks denounce their Christianity than claim it only in the most lukewarm fashion they can. Perhaps I'm wrong for saying that -- I don't want people to remove themselves from God (or vice versa), but I think you understand what I'm trying to say at least. It's no wonder many people don't respect the faith when so many people within the church can't even respect it themselves.
 
Yes, this is a whole different problem, and one of the worst in my opinion. I'd rather folks denounce their Christianity than claim it only in the most lukewarm fashion they can. Perhaps I'm wrong for saying that -- I don't want people to remove themselves from God (or vice versa), but I think you understand what I'm trying to say at least. It's no wonder many people don't respect the faith when so many people within the church can't even respect it themselves.
Amen! People, as a rule, join the church, small c there, for a multitude of reasons ut not many to serve. In the Mid, I believe it was, eighties the Barna Group did a nation wide survey, here in the U.S. and the qualifying data was folks that attended Church. at least, three times a week, so as to only include the, elusive, faithful only.

That survey was done Double or Triple Blind, so as to guarantee anonymity and the questions were of the nature so as to only touch on the basics. They were reported to e such as "Do you believe Jesus died for your sins, do you believe in the Virgin Birth and do you believe Jesus is returning to rapture you into Heaven?" It was reported that the Faithful had made up, across the nation, less than 15% of the
Church Universal's membership. Of these folks it was recorded, as I recall, that less than 10% of this group believed the Basic Tenants of the faith. That translates to less than 1.5% of the Church and choosing to be conservative, I have rounded up until the Master returns.

It is a serious matter but then we're lucky, that way... we go to worship in the middle of a field that is ripe to pick.
 
Interesting discussion, while you living in the States are watching the demise of the church, we have to recognized the Lord is doing a might work in other parts of the world, then again, during the 60's while we were protesting in the streets holding signs saying, "God is Dead, and Question Authority, that very God was preforming a revival among us, known today as the Jesus People Movement, the Holy Spirit gave the instructions for this revival, it was/is a movement of going back to the Bible, teaching through the Bible from cover to cover, along with that He gave us the music to Worship Him with, which is the same revival today, using the same tools He gave us, that we see taking place in the other parts of the world, ...it's a proven fact that revivals rarely last longer than the first and second generation, so what we are seeing is the church in America moving away from the revival the Holy spirit started, moving away from sound Biblical teaching and integrating worldly, secular music into their worship.

Now if I may return to the topic of this thread,

And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. Gen 1:2

It's common known knowledge today, and is very easily verified with a quick look at Strong's Concordance-Dictionary that the word in the Hebrew - hâyâh - is more accurately translated become rather than was, in fact, in Strong's Dictionary the word was isn't listed as one of the ways hâyâh is translated in the Old Testament, couple with that,

For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else. Isa 45:18

We find the same Hebrew phrase -tohu vavohu- in Gen 1:2, the earth became/was without form and void and in Isa 48:18 He created it not in vain - tohu vavohu, also the Hebrew word for create in Gen 1:1 is -bara- which means to create from nothing and the word for create in Isa 45:18 is -bara- also, but then goes on to say He formed - yâtsar- (which means to shape) the earth to be inhibited.

So my question is , how do you explain what looks like two discrepancies in the Old Testament, what happened to cause the earth God created in Gen 1:1, to be inhibited Isa 45:18, to become uninhabitable as stated in Gen 1:2?

Gene
 
Interesting discussion, while you living in the States are watching the demise of the church, we have to recognized the Lord is doing a might work in other parts of the world, then again, during the 60's while we were protesting in the streets holding signs saying, "God is Dead, and Question Authority, that very God was preforming a revival among us, known today as the Jesus People Movement, the Holy Spirit gave the instructions for this revival, it was/is a movement of going back to the Bible, teaching through the Bible from cover to cover, along with that He gave us the music to Worship Him with, which is the same revival today, using the same tools He gave us, that we see taking place in the other parts of the world, ...it's a proven fact that revivals rarely last longer than the first and second generation, so what we are seeing is the church in America moving away from the revival the Holy spirit started, moving away from sound Biblical teaching and integrating worldly, secular music into their worship.

Now if I may return to the topic of this thread,

And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. Gen 1:2

It's common known knowledge today, and is very easily verified with a quick look at Strong's Concordance-Dictionary that the word in the Hebrew - hâyâh - is more accurately translated become rather than was, in fact, in Strong's Dictionary the word was isn't listed as one of the ways hâyâh is translated in the Old Testament, couple with that,

For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else. Isa 45:18

We find the same Hebrew phrase -tohu vavohu- in Gen 1:2, the earth became/was without form and void and in Isa 48:18 He created it not in vain - tohu vavohu, also the Hebrew word for create in Gen 1:1 is -bara- which means to create from nothing and the word for create in Isa 45:18 is -bara- also, but then goes on to say He formed - yâtsar- (which means to shape) the earth to be inhibited.

So my question is , how do you explain what looks like two discrepancies in the Old Testament, what happened to cause the earth God created in Gen 1:1, to be inhibited Isa 45:18, to become uninhabitable as stated in Gen 1:2?

Gene
Awesome point Gene! And this causes some to drop their jaws in dismay but the truth is that I am not
God, shoot, I'm not even a god.
And while I will explain to any that everything we "need" to know is given us in the scriptures, that does not mean, by any measure, that everything is there for us to know. You have nailed one of those unknowable points that requires the gift of faith.
 
Okay, hang with me now, if I understand you correctly, we need faith to understand this, as you refer to it "unknowable point," and faith comes from hearing and hearing from the Word of God, then if we search the Scriptures we find Satan has a throne and he had a sanctuary, Scripture tells us satan defiled his sanctuaries, Ez 28:18, it's in the plural so there is more than one, and we find He had a throne here on earth in the city of Pergamos, Rev 2:13 which we could logically conclude it was in a sanctuary too (the root word from which Pergamos is derived means tower or castle, which lends credence to what we are seeing).

So if we put it together we find satan was the most perfect creature God created Ez 28:12, he was in the Garden of Eden Ez 28:13, he was a Cherubim, Ez 28:14, iniquity was first found in him Ez 25:15, he was on the Mountain of God (Mount Zion) and then cast out or from the presence of God Ez 28:16, now comparing Scripture with Scripture, these handful of verses show satan was here on a dry earth, hence we can correctly (rightly dividing the Word of God) conclude that there had to of been a time before Gen 1:2 when the earth became without form and void, covered with water.

Put your faith to work bro, we have read/heard from the Word, pray about it, don't just believe me, ask Father to show you John 4:42.

Gene
 
I went back and I reread your post but in truth, it is agenda laden and I'm not into agendas.

Hey again Bill,

I just wanted to talk about a few of things in your post here. First of all, I don't see you as anything except a fellow brother in Christ, and fellow Truth-seeker, who wants to be led by the Spirit in all things. I'm the same way. I'm not trying to win an argument with you, or trick you into conceding something you don't agree with. If I'm trying to push an "agenda," I'm not aware of it. If I am, I'm here to be shown I'm wrong, so I can get on with the business of pursuing truth. I continuously submit all of my beliefs to harsh criticism, because I don't want to believe something that isn't true. I respect you as a brother in Christ, I want to learn from your experience, and from how the Spirit has guided you. If I want to discuss something that you've said, I'd appreciate it if you give me the benefit of the doubt that I want a legitimate discussion. If you do, I think you'd be surprised about how much we actually agree on.

I've said it many times, science and scripture need no reconciliation and you are attempting to have me do just that and I refuse.

Again, I don't personally need to, or try to, reconcile every current scientific theory with scripture. I hope I wouldn't attempt to have you do something that I don't even do myself.

When I was in university, there was one Christian working in the science department. Once I got to know him, he shared his testimony with me, and said that he became a Christian because of science. He believed that once he'd confronted some of his key preconceptions, he realised many possibilities for the interpretation of certain scientific observations that eventually caused him to see a creator God as a legitimate, and likely, explanation for what has been observed about the world. My point was not that we should try to reconcile every scientific theory with the Bible. Instead, my point is that we shouldn't be surprised if they are reconciled. God created the universe. Science is just observing the universe. The problem happens when our preconceptions influence the observation process (the experiment design) or the interpretation of the recorded observations (developing the theory).

And then you allude to "your" interpreting scripture and neither I nor you nor any man can do that. The scripture is written to be a mystery to the lost man and it only becomes understandable when we are indwelt by the Holy Spirit of God. When one seeks to interpret the Word of God, excluding language work, one places themselves as equals with the Author. I understand what I know about the Word, only, because the Spirit teaches me.

When I say "interpretation," I think I'm talking about something different than you think I am. Interpretation is just the process of finding meaning. Like, when you see a stop sign, you determine that it's not just a red, flat piece of metal: it has a meaning, and it means that you need to stop your vehicle in front of it. This is interpretation.

So when I say I "interpret" scripture, what I mean is that I try to understand it. Ideally, my interpretive process will be 100% Spirit-led. I hope you can see that when I talk about interpretation, I'm talking about humbly submitting to the Spirit's teaching. If you don't want to use the word "interpret," another way of saying what I said is, we should be aware that our preconceptions can get in the way of actually submitting 100% to the leadership of the Spirit when we read the Bible. Confronting our preconceptions, then, should be an important part of our lives of Christians, and will lead us to a more accurate, increasingly Spirit-led understanding of scripture. The main reason I'm here on these forums is to confront my preconceptions and learn from my Christians brothers and sisters, all of whom are seeking the Spirit's guidance as they read the Bible.
 
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Oh, indeed. I'd say that's the majority of what I seem to deal with too. There should be an answer for everything.

Sometimes, it doesn't matter what answer you give--their intent is to bully. That's when you take a step back and say "I guess we're done here, aren't we?"

Correct my brother!
 
Science is the study of a process in the natural elements that can be repeated over and over, again and again, like electricity is electrons flowing through/or revolving around a conductor, or water where the temperature is lowered until it becomes solid or heated until it becomes a vapor, I know these are simple and basic examples, but it's the same principle for the more complex examples, so, "scientists" can and have had theories that are wrong, theories are not science, while there are many false theories trying to disprove the Word, true scientific discoveries reveal that what God wrote in His Word is true, true science authenticates the Word, it's just another tool Father gives us to use to know (ginōskō-know by experience) the Truth.

Blessings,

Gene
 
Okay, hang with me now, if I understand you correctly, we need faith to understand this, as you refer to it "unknowable point," and faith comes from hearing and hearing from the Word of God, then if we search the Scriptures we find Satan has a throne and he had a sanctuary, Scripture tells us satan defiled his sanctuaries, Ez 28:18, it's in the plural so there is more than one, and we find He had a throne here on earth in the city of Pergamos, Rev 2:13 which we could logically conclude it was in a sanctuary too (the root word from which Pergamos is derived means tower or castle, which lends credence to what we are seeing).

So if we put it together we find satan was the most perfect creature God created Ez 28:12, he was in the Garden of Eden Ez 28:13, he was a Cherubim, Ez 28:14, iniquity was first found in him Ez 25:15, he was on the Mountain of God (Mount Zion) and then cast out or from the presence of God Ez 28:16, now comparing Scripture with Scripture, these handful of verses show satan was here on a dry earth, hence we can correctly (rightly dividing the Word of God) conclude that there had to of been a time before Gen 1:2 when the earth became without form and void, covered with water.

Put your faith to work bro, we have read/heard from the Word, pray about it, don't just believe me, ask Father to show you John 4:42.

Gene
Gene,
What you have done in this post is a demonstration, a good one, of what David Koresh, Jim Jones and many lessor heretics have done to scripture. You have made your case by pulling a root from here, a branch from there, another from this tree and leaves from Sweet Gum, China Berry and needles from a Yellow Pine, taped them together and your calling it a tree. I trust you understand the metaphor.

Scripture must be read and understood in much the same manor that we read the latest novel. What you have presented is not in context and context was a principal understood by the third grade when I waqs in school. It is a matter of basics.
 
Hey again Bill,

I just wanted to talk about a few of things in your post here. First of all, I don't see you as anything except a fellow brother in Christ, and fellow Truth-seeker, who wants to be led by the Spirit in all things. I'm the same way. I'm not trying to win an argument with you, or trick you into conceding something you don't agree with. If I'm trying to push an "agenda," I'm not aware of it. If I am, I'm here to be shown I'm wrong, so I can get on with the business of pursuing truth. I continuously submit all of my beliefs to harsh criticism, because I don't want to believe something that isn't true. I respect you as a brother in Christ, I want to learn from your experience, and from how the Spirit has guided you. If I want to discuss something that you've said, I'd appreciate it if you give me the benefit of the doubt that I want a legitimate discussion. If you do, I think you'd be surprised about how much we actually agree on.



Again, I don't personally need to, or try to, reconcile every current scientific theory with scripture. I hope I wouldn't attempt to have you do something that I don't even do myself.

When I was in university, there was one Christian working in the science department. Once I got to know him, he shared his testimony with me, and said that he became a Christian because of science. He believed that once he'd confronted some of his key preconceptions, he realised many possibilities for the interpretation of certain scientific observations that eventually caused him to see a creator God as a legitimate, and likely, explanation for what has been observed about the world. My point was not that we should try to reconcile every scientific theory with the Bible. Instead, my point is that we shouldn't be surprised if they are reconciled. God created the universe. Science is just observing the universe. The problem happens when our preconceptions influence the observation process (the experiment design) or the interpretation of the recorded observations (developing the theory).



When I say "interpretation," I think I'm talking about something different than you think I am. Interpretation is just the process of finding meaning. Like, when you see a stop sign, you determine that it's not just a red, flat piece of metal: it has a meaning, and it means that you need to stop your vehicle in front of it. This is interpretation.

So when I say I "interpret" scripture, what I mean is that I try to understand it. Ideally, my interpretive process will be 100% Spirit-led. I hope you can see that when I talk about interpretation, I'm talking about humbly submitting to the Spirit's teaching. If you don't want to use the word "interpret," another way of saying what I said is, we should be aware that our preconceptions can get in the way of actually submitting 100% to the leadership of the Spirit when we read the Bible. Confronting our preconceptions, then, should be an important part of our lives of Christians, and will lead us to a more accurate, increasingly Spirit-led understanding of scripture. The main reason I'm here on these forums is to confront my preconceptions and learn from my Christians brothers and sisters, all of whom are seeking the Spirit's guidance as they read the Bible.
When I read scripture, it is done with prayer and submission, not with preconception and because I have submitted, the Holy Spirit teaches the truth and the truth is not open to interpretation. The scriptures are unlike our speech and writings, they are definite but our words are, often, laden with our understanding and life experience, much like the misuse you describe of the word translation.
 
Put your faith to work
heretics have done to scripture.

I find it amusing how another Christian can easily say to another Christian
“put your faith to work” or “a heretic”

Is understanding mystery same as faith? 1 Corinthians 13
Is it necessary to a mystery being tried to explain shoot down as heresy?

When simply disagreeing if a topic is essential or not essential?

Interesting workshop tips I learned:

Ask a person to raise his arm out to their side, palms up, keeping it up…….. while you are trying to keep it down….

Look him in the eye and say negative words…. surely down the arm goes….

Then try to say positive words… you will notice the arm will become an iron bar you can hang on : )

http://jeannelking.com/want-to-stand-in-your-strength-lose-the-trash-talk/
 
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