General Revelation

[Godspell]

I hope you are right @Godspell and you make a case for "universalism". It is said throughout scripture that God wants us all back and surely there is a way He can get what He wants. It is a mystery to me how this could be accomplished. But scripture tells us there is only one way back - belief in Christ. We are all damned except thru Christ.

I'm not a universalist and I've never proposed universalism as a dogma. But as long as people understand they'll be held to account for their actions in this life, hopeful universalism is permissible however unlikely.

The only thing that I'm really opposed to is salvation being contingent on correctly answering a multiple choice question. I believe thay hell is really a place for individuals who haven't the capacity to participate in the age to come because they refuse to deal with their sin, particularly the sin that causes suffering. The only way to deal with that sin is Christ, I believe that, but I don't think that acceptance is having correct dogma.

 

[Silk]

Sorry - I didn't mean to "label" and I was hoping you were right - that more get in the gate than is commonly held. Dogma is a hard term, generally used to describe people believing things as a knee jerk, unreasoning response. Like the word "cliche" it is used more and more as outdated. But I like cliches. They are handed down truths from generation to generation. "A stitch in time saves nine". It means doing one thing now will save you 9 more time taking things later to correct. What do you mean by dogma?

 

[Godspell]

Sorry - I didn't mean to "label" and I was hoping you were right - that more get in the gate than is commonly held. Dogma is a hard term, generally used to describe people believing things as a knee jerk, unreasoning response. Like the word "cliche" it is used more and more as outdated. But I like cliches. They are handed down truths from generation to generation. "A stitch in time saves nine". It means doing one thing now will save you 9 more time taking things later to correct. What do you mean by dogma?

Well, there is a tendency for it to be a sort of mindless acceptance of some doctrine that someone said had to be accepted. Personally, I have no problem with dogma, but I just don't think that assent to dogma warrants special rewards. I think that a right understanding of scriptural truth arms a person to ultimately do the good work of the Lord. If someone would be willing and able to do this work if they did have these tools, I think that this is really the crux of salvation.

I imagine the the final judgment holding those people who absolutely refused to open their hearts to God will be held to account, and their condemnation will come, not because God is merciless, but because His love resides with His people who suffered at the hands of the wicked and He will not allow them to continue to enact suffering post-resurrection.

I say this because I think the sort of "hyper-grace" heterodox threatens to produce a lot of rotten fruit. Christians don't receive license to commit sins. Sinning post baptism, when a person ought to know better, is of course forgivable, but that doesn't mean it is beneficial. I also don't really like the "Christ + nothing = salvation". This just sort of follows along hyper-grace, but truth is I think God will deal with someone's sins if they're open to change, but you have to be open.

A lot of this comes from a tendency to partition different fruits of the Spirit, but if you have the Spirit you produce all these fruits, not just some. This is also why I don't think their is a substantial difference between good faith and good works. Both are engendered by God and you don't have one without the other.

 

[Silk]

You state that you can't have good faith without good works and vice versa but yet you want to leave great faith out of the equation? Great faith in what? You or God? There is another cliche - "the road to hell is paved with good intentions". If you are doing "good" for whatever reason - because you want to fit in, approbation of those around you - without God, this becomes an "I" did all these good things and perhaps you receive from the world what you sought from it. But the world is finite and does not have any further answers. Have we not all been caught in situations where we thought we were doing good only to find out with more information in time that we had done it "wrong". The only example I can come up with at the moment is where you give to a fake charity. The money goes not to starving/abused dogs but to unscrupulous individuals who do evil. You feel "good" "charitable" "righteous" but were you?

 

[Godspell]

You state that you can't have good faith without good works and vice versa but yet you want to leave great faith out of the equation? Great faith in what? You or God? There is another cliche - "the road to hell is paved with good intentions". If you are doing "good" for whatever reason - because you want to fit in, approbation of those around you - without God, this becomes an "I" did all these good things and perhaps you receive from the world what you sought from it. But the world is finite and does not have any further answers. Have we not all been caught in situations where we thought we were doing good only to find out with more information in time that we had done it "wrong". The only example I can come up with at the moment is where you give to a fake charity. The money goes not to starving/abused dogs but to unscrupulous individuals who do evil. You feel "good" "charitable" "righteous" but were you?

Good works, or as I prefer to call them, faithful works, that are works engendered by the Holy Spirit, are never self-serving. If you work for money, glory, fame or pride, your reward is the same. But truly altruistic acts, things done with selfless consideration for the sake of good, come from the grace of God. After all, why would anyone with a rational mind give sacrifice in return for nothing ? I call these faithful works because by their very nature they require a faith in something beyond this world.

If someone boasts about their works, they are not really faithful, because faithful works do not seek a reward.

As to your cliche, I imagine it is more along the lines of "ends justify the means" where people think to achieve a long term purpose permits them to ignore their own humanity. The Crusades come to mind, where a noble goal is riffled with devious intentions.

As to your example, while I would encourage people to give wisely and charitably, all charity done in the right heart is good. The condemnation for the deceiver, however, is multiplied.

This is also where I believe wisdom and discernment (especially form scripture) are needed. Faithful works are more efficacious when coupled with special revelation. This I think is the greater purpose of evangelism.

 

[Silk]

Good Works done by non believers, happens and do indeed have God's love and hand in it- but it does not get them saved. At least according to scripture. We cannot weigh the good and bad deeds and use comparisons for salvation - it doesn't work that way. We are ALL unworthy, simply by virtue of Adam's fall. The justification that "he (rhetorical) did worse things than me" is every sinner's attempt to justify their own sins. "I'm not so bad - I only cheated once long ago".

 

[Godspell]

Good Works done by non believers, happens and do indeed have God's love and hand in it- but it does not get them saved. At least according to scripture. We cannot weigh the good and bad deeds and use comparisons for salvation - it doesn't work that way. We are ALL unworthy, simply by virtue of Adam's fall. The justification that "he (rhetorical) did worse things than me" is every sinner's attempt to justify their own sins. "I'm not so bad - I only cheated once long ago".

Silk you need to understand that I am challenging the tendency to partition faith and works. God's grace saves us from sins through the cross and engenders faith and good works. As Paul states the three virtues imparted by God are faith, hope and love. I don't believe one exists without the other. But all three are gifts, not earned and undeserving.

About comparing sin, it is true that it is unproductive, but as I argue it is because there can be no sin in the age to come. Through contrition (or attrition and purgation) and the cross forgiveness is possible.

 

[Silk]

To say non believers who do good works is the same as christians who do good works is error. Neither believer or non believer is saved by works. They are saved by Grace, through Christ's work. To say I do more good works than you, therefore I am a better christian says I am thinking I need to do more to cinch my salvation. And to confuse these concepts can cause loss of faith. I did all these good, dogmatic works and I get a child taken/arthritis/cancer/whatever. Yes, good works come from a true believer, as he/she grows in Christ. But doing good works for good works sake is losing the point. We should be grateful to do good works.

 

[Godspell]

To say non believers who do good works is the same as christians who do good works is error. Neither believer or non believer is saved by works. They are saved by Grace, through Christ's work. To say I do more good works than you, therefore I am a better christian says I am thinking I need to do more to cinch my salvation. And to confuse these concepts can cause loss of faith. I did all these good, dogmatic works and I get a child taken/arthritis/cancer/whatever. Yes, good works come from a true believer, as he/she grows in Christ. But doing good works for good works sake is losing the point. We should be grateful to do good works.

Whatever error I may be in, I believe it is a much graver error to say that Christians who do nothing to improve the world will be justified. For one, Paul, who champions justification by faith says they won't be. But moreover the Lord says unequivocally that only the one who does the will of the Father will be justified.

So justification by faith with no works is completely unbiblical which is why I'm postulating that faith and work are an integral union. Just like Jesus was a hypostatic union of God and man.

 

[Silk]

Apologies - Let me reword that 1st sentence of my post - the unbeliever does good works out of an "I" framework, whereas a believer does good works out of a love for Christ/God framework - neither of which are qualifyers for salvation on it's own. I'm unclear here - are you saying an unbeliever who fronts millions to save the rain forest (as example) should be saved and a christian who only goes to church of an occasional Sunday should not? Those who improve the world?
I have no quarrel that faith produces works. If you plant a tree, do you get immediate fruit? Do you see all the steps while it is growing that finally produces that fruit? What works were produced by the guy next to Christ at Golgotha? What you seem to be saying is accepting Christ as your savior is not enough. And to me that sounds unbiblical.

 

[Brother_Mike_V]

1 Timothy 1:
12 And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, for that he counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry; 13 Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief. 14 And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus. 15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief. 16 Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting. 17 Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.

Acts 17:
22 Then Paul stood in the midst of Mars' hill, and said, Ye men of Athens, I perceive that in all things ye are too superstitious. 23 For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you. 24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands; 25 Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things; 26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation; 27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us: 28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring. 29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device. 30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: 31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

32 And when they heard of the resurrection of the dead, some mocked: and others said, We will hear thee again of this matter. 33 So Paul departed from among them. 34 Howbeit certain men clave unto him, and believed: among the which was Dionysius the Areopagite, and a woman named Damaris, and others with them.

Romans 10:
Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved. 2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. 3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth. 5 For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them. 6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above) 7 Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.) 8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; 9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. 13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. 14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report 17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. 18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world. 19 But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you. 20 But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me. 21 But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.

1 Peter 1:
13 Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ; 14 As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance: 15 But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; 16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy. 17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear: 18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; 19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: 20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, 21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God. 22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently: 23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

 

[Godspell]

Apologies - Let me reword that 1st sentence of my post - the unbeliever does good works out of an "I" framework, whereas a believer does good works out of a love for Christ/God framework - neither of which are qualifyers for salvation on it's own. I'm unclear here - are you saying an unbeliever who fronts millions to save the rain forest (as example) should be saved and a christian who only goes to church of an occasional Sunday should not? Those who improve the world?
I have no quarrel that faith produces works. If you plant a tree, do you get immediate fruit? Do you see all the steps while it is growing that finally produces that fruit? What works were produced by the guy next to Christ at Golgotha? What you seem to be saying is accepting Christ as your savior is not enough. And to me that sounds unbiblical.

Think of what Jesus said to the rich man or about the separation of the sheep and the goats. He specifically says it is NOT just calling upon the Lord.

So what I'm saying to you is that you cannot partition faith and works because they are of the same essence, engendered by the Holy Spirit. The Book of James strongly echoes this. Romans tends to be more angled about justification though faith and salvation being a gift and I think this was because his congregation was being harassed for not following Jewish law, to which he was basically saying, get off your high horse, you missing the point, we all need grace and grace is a gift. Paul never says, though, that good works are meaningless.

I'm postulating a theological construct to reconcile this and also deal with the question of the fate of the unlearned. That is to say that the grace of God is conferred indiscriminately on those who ask or seek. And dogmatic assent is not a prerequisite for that grace.

But let me ask you this. Which was more important, Christ's humanity or His divinity? As I see it however you answer that is the answer to whether faith is more important than works.