When I study the Calvanist position - I am often fully convinced that I am safe in Jesus' hands and my salvation is secure, but when I study the Armenian position my convictions are often swayed due to the serious warnings of possible apostacy. I have not taken a position on which is correct but I do know this - If I keep on dedicating my life (salvation is not a once off decision) my life to Christ, crucifying myself daily to the temptations arround me, I know without a doubt that God will never leave me or forsake me. His work within me will be completed. I agree salvation is not based on what we do (works) but it does require a relationship between ourselves and God to enter into His covenant. Good works does not lead to salvation but is rather an outflowing of salvation.
HELP -mjs
- Thread starter netchaplain
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When I study the Calvanist position - I am often fully convinced that I am safe in Jesus' hands and my salvation is secure, but when I study the Armenian position my convictions are often swayed due to the serious warnings of possible apostacy. I have not taken a position on which is correct but I do know this - If I keep on dedicating my life (salvation is not a once off decision) my life to Christ, crucifying myself daily to the temptations arround me, I know without a doubt that God will never leave me or forsake me. His work within me will be completed. I agree salvation is not based on what we do (works) but it does require a relationship between ourselves and God to enter into His covenant. Good works does not lead to salvation but is rather an outflowing of salvation.
Completely correct!!!
Faith without works is dead as Jeames said and the key there is that those works come after salvation.
Arent the true "works" to be done without being seen by other men/women?
As I understand on related parables on doing good works…
Good works is symbolically a lamp, not as a trumpet… : )
Related verses:
As a lamp/ light
MT 5:14 Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.
MT 5:15 Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house.
MT 5:16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven
Not as a trumpet:
MT 6:1 Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven.
MT 6:2 Therefore when thou doest thine alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
A christian will do works not to honour himself but to glorify God. It should come as a natural desire driven from the result of the Holy Spirit living within. They will not question who is watching, but do good works simply because they want to. Christ did many good works in the view of everybody but He did them with the sole intention of glorifying God - so should our works be.
Sometimes the Lord will send me to places I dont understand the "Why" of until the time has passed or until Im in the middle of the storm. At these times I simply pray and meditate on the word of the Lord. I prefer to be unseen, but the "lessons" never really allow me to be unseen.
I sometimes wonder when Jesus said "You will do greater things than these" if he really meant things like hosting huge Christain Concerts and Seminars and creating Christian Pop Idols????? It is very hard to draw that distinction between a Christain who becomes very famous and therefore are able to donate $100 or Millions of dollars to charities, or the person who has a low paying job and yet finds a way to help their neighbours or even to sponsor someone else who has even less.
I must confess I would to be able to be more generous with my money, but I just barely make ends meet. "be indebted to no man" is rarely preached at the pulpit these days. But I give what I do have...."me". 0
I sometimes wonder when Jesus said "You will do greater things than these" if he really meant things like hosting huge Christain Concerts and Seminars and creating Christian Pop Idols????? It is very hard to draw that distinction between a Christain who becomes very famous and therefore are able to donate $100 or Millions of dollars to charities, or the person who has a low paying job and yet finds a way to help their neighbours or even to sponsor someone else who has even less.
I must confess I would to be able to be more generous with my money, but I just barely make ends meet. "be indebted to no man" is rarely preached at the pulpit these days. But I give what I do have...."me". 0
This parable is for us to realise how far our Father will go to keep us. We make a mistake to think WE are literally a full blood son like Jesus is to God. We are ''adopted sons'' by the blood of Jesus on earth, as long as we are ''in-Christ'' and our names are in the lambs book of life, not blotted out (Rev 3:5), we are 'adopted sons and daughters' of God. When we are in heaven, we will always be a son in the literal / full blood sense. The parable of the 10 virgin brides waiting for the groom is much more applicable to us.The risk of calvanism is that many assume they are saved when in fact they are not. The reality is that none of us know whose names are in The Lambs book of life. We are to judge ourselves daily to make sure we are in the faith. Scrutinize that that soft voice leading us is in fact Jesus our shepherd and not the devil or our memories of Jesus speaking to us.
This is the first time I disagree with you.For someone to believe in eternal salvation is to me usually a good sign as it shows that person is close to Jesus (as I stated in post #10). BUT we CANNOT and SHOULD NOT preach that as a precedent. At the same time we CANNOT preach it is easy to lose ones salvation.
These scriptures explain it so simply Mat 24:10-13, 1 Tim 1:18-19, 1 Tim 6:20-21, 2 Pet 3:17, Rev 2:4, Rev 2:11, Rev 3:5?
I don't understand the confusion. To believe in eternal salvation requires 'reading into' the scriptures more then what is actually there. Also it carries with it the HUGE risk that you assume you are ready for the rapture when your heart has actually drifted so far and you are now just going through the motions.
If you want to read into the prodigal son story, look at it like this. The son DID NOT hear the workers nor his father's voice when he was far away. The workers were instructed to STOP looking for him. If you and I are that son, we WILL NOT hear Jesus's voice at the rapture. The 5 virgins with oil in their lamps will be raptured, NOBODY else. Why else would Jesus give us the warning to be ready and waiting?
Paul, who wrote 3/4 of the NT says that WE Christians must NOT like a dog return to our vomit. Romans 6 I think.
Yes, God's will is done. What Jesus did on the cross IS DONE and GOOD in God's eyes. But for US, our ''DONE'' is done when we make it to heaven. A life of carrying our cross and remaining ''IN CHRIST'' will ensure this happens. Remaining 'in-Christ' has nothing to do with salvation by works.
You did have a part. You accepted Jesus. If you did not accept you would have NO salvation. The act of acceptance of Jesus is in line with the act of faithfulness in God from OT saints.
Yes, we cannot work for our salvation. Just like my wife couldnt expect me to marry her if she washed dishes everyday . But if she has a change of hearts desire to go after another man in constant adultery, I will, just like God, ''GIVE HER OVER'' to the desires of her flesh. God does do one better then I can in that His giving us over, is in hope that we may realise our sin and loneliness from God and return. But if we don't, we don't and MUST be very nervous of not being raptured.
For someone to believe in eternal salvation is to me usually a good sign as it shows that person is close to Jesus (as I stated in post #10). BUT we CANNOT and SHOULD NOT preach that as a precedent. At the same time we CANNOT preach it is easy to lose ones salvation.
These scriptures explain it so simply Mat 24:10-13, 1 Tim 1:18-19, 1 Tim 6:20-21, 2 Pet 3:17, Rev 2:4, Rev 2:11, Rev 3:5?
I don't understand the confusion. To believe in eternal salvation requires 'reading into' the scriptures more then what is actually there. Also it carries with it the HUGE risk that you assume you are ready for the rapture when your heart has actually drifted so far and you are now just going through the motions.
If you want to read into the prodigal son story, look at it like this. The son DID NOT hear the workers nor his father's voice when he was far away. The workers were instructed to STOP looking for him. If you and I are that son, we WILL NOT hear Jesus's voice at the rapture. The 5 virgins with oil in their lamps will be raptured, NOBODY else. Why else would Jesus give us the warning to be ready and waiting?
Well, there is a first time for everything my friend and that disagreement on salvation should not effect our feelings one way the other.
To me the key question or word is NOT Once saved always saved BUT..... IF saved, always saved.
If mankind has nothing to do with saving himself, then why would God require men to do something to maintain it? Salvation is of God; not men. Paul said to "work out your own salvation" in Philippians 2:12; the Bible doesn't say to work out GOD'S SALVATION. God saves a person, pulling them out of the fires of Hell; but now that person needs to be recycled. It is up to us whether we yield to the Holy Spirit or not in our daily life, to search and obey the Scriptures. However, salvation and discipleship are two separate things entirely. Whether or not a believer lives a holy life has nothing to do with the "free gift" (Romans 5:15) of salvation. Those who say otherwise are adding works to grace, which the Bible condemns (Romans 11:6). Salvation cannot be by God's grace AND man's self-righteous works. Revelation 22:17 states: "...And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely."
Titus 3:5 states...
"Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us...".
And again in Ephesians 2:8,9 we are told......
"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast."
We are all Hell-deserving sinners! We do NOT have anything to do with salvation except to receive God's free gift by FAITH. Salvation is receiving; NOT giving.
Romans 4:5 reads......
"But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness."
This is how Abraham was saved in the Old Testament, i.e., his faith was COUNTED for righteousness (Genesis 15:6).
Acts 10:43 teaches that Old Testament sinners were saved exactly as they are today...
"To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins."
Perhaps you ask, what if a believer loses faith? A believer certainly may become discouraged, or falter in their faith for a time. John the Baptist became discouraged and wavered in his faith, even questioning if Jesus were the Christ (Matthew 11:3); yet, Jesus called John the greatest born amongst women (Matthew 11:3,11).
Peter denied that he even knew Christ not once but 3 times, rejecting the name of Jesus; but the Holy Spirit convicted him and Peter later repented. However, none of these believers LOST their salvation and there's not one shred of Biblical evidence to show otherwise.
Then If you are a parent, your child didn't make a commitment to become your child; but rather, they were born to become your child. Likewise, we are born-again to become God's child. Just as a child has absolutely NOTHING to do with his or her own birth, neither does the Christian have anything to do with their spiritual birth. It is completely of God. Our part is done the moment we believe, receiving Jesus as the Christ, the Son of God.
John 1:12, “But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name.”
So then, do I actually believe in Once Saved Always Saved???? NO!!!
But I do believe in WHEN ONCE SAVED THE FIRST TIME, ALWAYS SAVED!.
I have stated my view and scriptures, as have you. To discuss this further would just be going in circles. I used to believe that if one is truly saved they are eternally saved as a 'son can never not be a son'. The logic is there!
. But the volume of scriptures teaching the importance of carrying our cross until the end, has convinced me otherwise.I have stated my view and scriptures, as have you. To discuss this further would just be going in circles. I used to believe that if one is truly saved they are eternally saved as a 'son can never not be a son'. The logic is there!
God bless ya my friend and be good to you!
Maybe poetry can harmonize it?
“Two sinners parted their ways to meet the Lord in Galilee.
One accepted the Savior in the willful present, the other in the eternity past.”
.... was able to do only 2 lines, never thought writing poetry would be so hard.
… maybe mistmann can help? : )
Poetry can often express what we fail to do in prose.
I often wish I had the gift of poetry, but alas God gave me a scientific mind which thinks too literally - but He gave me a wife who is brilliant in creativity.
I still find it amazing that when I am down - I dont rush to my systematic theology books but to the Psalms for comfort.
I often wish I had the gift of poetry, but alas God gave me a scientific mind which thinks too literally - but He gave me a wife who is brilliant in creativity.
I still find it amazing that when I am down - I dont rush to my systematic theology books but to the Psalms for comfort.