Honest And Sincere...

[A263149]

Howdy Ravindran! I guess I was just thinking of this thread as an introduction. I have asked a couple questions on another thread...BUT, I will indeed ask a question here. I have no shortage of questions!
I've attempted to ask this question of a certain Christian friend of mine, but he writes a novel for EVERY answer, so it was difficult to follow. So I will try this one here...
If God knows everything...he is omniscient, then before he created me, he would know that I would end up being a non-believer and I would die and go to hell to be punished for all eternity. Why would he then go ahead and create me, just to torture me forever in Hell?

Ok, this is my first attempt at answering a serious question on here. I will try to be brief and to the point as I know how hard it is to read long threads.

there is not one central christian belief but several on the answer to this question.

The Calvinists believe that God chooses who goes to hell based on his decree before the world was created.

Arminians believe that God knew but also created beings with free will and furthermore they believe there is no contradiction between foreknowledge and free will. They also insist that time is sequential with no branching points which the Calvinists also believe.

Open Theists believe in free will but that time is not linear so that the future is known, by God, often as potentialities, not as certainties. Therefore, according to open theism, individual hell boundedness is not a foregone conclusion from the beginning of time. So one might say that, for an open theist, God does not "know" beforehand as in the Calvinist/Arminian case.

My personal view is that, for me, open theism squares better with scripture, but also with science, especially quantum physics, which asserts the necessary ignorance of a system of particles based on Heisenberg's uncertainty principle and Bell's theorem. To say (convincingly) that God knows perfectly about a system of sub-atomic particles, would undermine those equations. If the Calvinists or Arminians ever prove their assertions then those physics texts will need to be rewritten. However that line of thinking may be beyond the scope of this discussion.

 

[Ravindran]

Howdy Ravindran! I guess I was just thinking of this thread as an introduction. I have asked a couple questions on another thread...BUT, I will indeed ask a question here. I have no shortage of questions!
I've attempted to ask this question of a certain Christian friend of mine, but he writes a novel for EVERY answer, so it was difficult to follow. So I will try this one here...
If God knows everything...he is omniscient, then before he created me, he would know that I would end up being a non-believer and I would die and go to hell to be punished for all eternity. Why would he then go ahead and create me, just to torture me forever in Hell?

I initiated the discussion and went away! Looking forward to more discussions with you.. I have never discussed theology deeply with any atheist before.. I hope we can do it in a friendly fashion.. And feel free to PM some members as well..

Let me answer your question in a slightly different way.. Because others have covered lot of very good points.. And this is my thought and even other Christians might differ on this.. Interestingly you started this question with 2 assumptions.. God knowing everything.. God being omniscient.. That itself puts God and humans and 2 different levels.. God knowing everything and man knowing very little things.. This is confirmed by Bible also.. Isaiah declares the same.. "My ways are higher than your ways".. If this is the case, then the knowledge gap is so vast that there are many things which we do not have complete understanding.. I am not saying no understanding, not a complete understanding.. I read this somewhere online.. A mom going is taking a 5 year old kid in car.. And on the way drops a cheque for car mortgage.. The kid asks what is that paper and why she is putting it in the box.. The mom says, so that our car is taken back! Now, the kid has no understanding.. The kid does not understand a cheque is equivalent to money, how mom bought the car from dealer, what mortgage is and even how the cheque will be mailed to some other place.. He just knows it has to be done for keeping the car.. Same way, man has very limited understanding of why he has been created.. Bible says it is as per God's will.. But God is omniscient and we are not! So our understanding on this is very little.. We are not provided with an exact answer.. Probably the answer is incomprehensible for human mind.. That is why some people challenge if God is really omniscient.. And some go to the extend of denying God!

 

[Belanos]

I initiated the discussion and went away! Looking forward to more discussions with you.. I have never discussed theology deeply with any atheist before.. I hope we can do it in a friendly fashion.. And feel free to PM some members as well..

Let me answer your question in a slightly different way.. Because others have covered lot of very good points.. And this is my thought and even other Christians might differ on this.. Interestingly you started this question with 2 assumptions.. God knowing everything.. God being omniscient.. That itself puts God and humans and 2 different levels.. God knowing everything and man knowing very little things.. This is confirmed by Bible also.. Isaiah declares the same.. "My ways are higher than your ways".. If this is the case, then the knowledge gap is so vast that there are many things which we do not have complete understanding.. I am not saying no understanding, not a complete understanding.. I read this somewhere online.. A mom going is taking a 5 year old kid in car.. And on the way drops a cheque for car mortgage.. The kid asks what is that paper and why she is putting it in the box.. The mom says, so that our car is taken back! Now, the kid has no understanding.. The kid does not understand a cheque is equivalent to money, how mom bought the car from dealer, what mortgage is and even how the cheque will be mailed to some other place.. He just knows it has to be done for keeping the car.. Same way, man has very limited understanding of why he has been created.. Bible says it is as per God's will.. But God is omniscient and we are not! So our understanding on this is very little.. We are not provided with an exact answer.. Probably the answer is incomprehensible for human mind.. That is why some people challenge if God is really omniscient.. And some go to the extend of denying God!

No worries...I went away too! Sometimes life gets in the way of internet discussions. So I understand your example of the Mother and the 5 year old child. I think an even better example is of an ant and his view of reality. An ant has no concept, and has not the ability to conceive of the world around him. Love, crime, sexual abuse, politics, hate, religion, video games, etc. So logically, one can assume that it is possible that there are things way beyond human comprehension. But an all-knowing god would have to know that humans would have a problem with him purposely creating us to punish us for all eternity and address this subject specifically. Another thing to consider is that all cults and other religions (that you don't believe in) do this exact same thing. When there is a flaw in logic or facts don't add up...the easy way out is "God (or whatever power) works in mysterious ways. This excuse can be used for anything, including alien cults, and various metaphysical beliefs. A real god would know this, and seriously address it. Especially if he/she really loves me and wants me to believe in him/her. So consider that your reasoning in no stronger than that of an alien cult, Rastafariansim or Wicca. When they can use the exact same excuse as you....what does that say? The easy excuse is, "this is beyond our understanding". This is ok with science that we don't have a grasp on, but this does not work with an entity that supposedly wants to relate to us.
So the question remains, why should I believe in, and love, a god that purposely made me, knowing full well that I would suffer in hell for all eternity? And secondly, why would he create a hell for people to suffer for all eternity? Why would he want people to suffer for eternity? There are literally billions of people who will die, or have died, who are wonderful, caring, loving people, who have done no evil. BUT, because they didn't believe in God/Jesus, they will suffer for all eternity? Why wouldn't God just make their existence end? Why would he purposely torture them for ever?? You can not deny that this is the epitome of evil.